Since the Forum Doesn't Display This...

[CandidPicker]

Need to ask a question regards effects placement and utilizing effects correctly, without purchasing any more additional gear.

This is my current effects board:

You'll note that my One Control loop switcher is occupied with all of the pedals. In several days, 2 additional effects all be added; one mini volume pedal, and one modulation pedal.

Here's my dilemma:

My preference is to add the volume pedal so that the volume acts as a master volume after the overdrive and boost which currently reside on two separate loop switch settings. If the overdrive and boost are combined into one loop along with the volume pedal, that will free up one loop for the additional modulation effect.

The advantage is that it will not be necessary to move my compressor before the loop switcher so that the combined overdrive/boost provide the extra loop. Moving the compressor before the loop switcher will free up one loop anyway, which could be used for the incoming modulation effect.

The downside is that placing the volume pedal within one loop along with the overdrive and boost will preclude the volume pedal's use with a clean signal and remaining modulation effects.

My only recourse that I can visualize is ditching the loop switcher and going back to tap-dancing over my effects board. Or investing in a much more expensive 8 channel loop switcher that may not fit correctly on the board and would cost more than I can't afford. FTR, I did view amazon's 'Loop Switcher' 8-channel loop switcher (last one there) and calculated that my finances wouldn't allow that.

Is there an alternative solution? Curious to know what you folks think.

 

[toothace]

What about leaving the volume pedal out of the loops...aren't you going to run it at the beginning of your chain anyways?

 

[CandidPicker]

What about leaving the volume pedal out of the loops...aren't you going to run it at the beginning of your chain anyways?

That is a possibility, but according to Sweetwater's "Effects Placement" YT video, Don Carr suggests placing the volume pedal after the gain pedals and before the modulation pedals as a master volume for gain, where your guitar's volume knob would serve for cleaning up gain stages. Placing the volume pedal after the gain effects would simply lower the gain volume without cleaning it up, and would also allow for doing clean volume swells with the following modulation effects.

Putting the volume pedal after the gain pedals is somewhat tricky because it can't be accomplished with my loop switcher without sacrificing the possibility of using the volume pedal for clean modulation swells, and would only be utilized for lowering effects gain volume. Unless someone could suggest another alternative...

The volume pedal is a passive volume, an active one would have an on-off footswitch that would require activation every time it was utilized....

 

[pac90]

If you want some input as to rejigging, the polytune has a built in buffer and the compressor doesn't need to be in a loop (I leave compressor as always on a bit to thicken the sound), and is the noise gate really necessary with your guitars and amp and type of music you play?

Suggest: TC tuner > Compressor > switcher using 3 pedals, try leaving out the buffer and you have more loops to play with

 

[andy474x]

Forgive me if I’m wrong, as I can’t see exactly what’s going on, but couldn’t you run your tuner through the tuner out of your buffer pedal, and free a loop that way?

 

[toothace]

Put the volume pedal in the loop with the gain pedals?

 

[Mozzi]

So you are looking to control the volume of an overdriven/distorted/gain signal and use the guitars volume pot to clean up the sound?

To me, the obvious solution would be to put the Volume at the end of the chain going into the amp and use the FX Loop to put in any modulation/delay/reverb. I don't know how you have your board but if you can take advantage of the FX Loop, you can use the Volume in between the board and the input jack on your Amp, then use the FX loop out back to the board to access all your modulation and then return it back to the amp. The advantage of the FX Loop (of you have one) is that all your FX are not affected by the pre-amp so can sound a lot cleaner and more natural - especially if you also use the gain channels on you amp. By putting in your volume in between the board and the input, you would have a 'master' volume for doing swells etc on all your overdrive/gain pedals and keep all the modulation etc in the FX loop

 

[CandidPicker]

If you want some input as to rejigging, the polytune has a built in buffer and the compressor doesn't need to be in a loop (I leave compressor as always on a bit to thicken the sound), and is the noise gate really necessary with your guitars and amp and type of music you play?

Suggest: TC tuner > Compressor > switcher using 3 pedals, try leaving out the buffer and you have more loops to play with

This is partially correct. The TC tuner is not part of the 5 I/O loops, but has its own dedicated tuner-in footswitch. Downside is, the regular loops have I/Os, whereas the tuner has only an input.

Placing the compressor before the loop switcher input would free up one loop, but that still would require putting the volume pedal into one loop and keeping that loop as always on. The problem is that all of the loops are currently occupied, freeing up one loop will only allow for the additional modulation pedal.

I just had called a Sweetwater rep and described my situation. My regular rep was away at lunch, but one other sales rep fielded my call. His suggestion was to put the volume pedal and compressor before the loop switcher (so essentially the volume would follow the compressor, before the loop switcher input).

Doing so would allow one loop to be freed up for the modulation pedal which will follow the boost and before the reverb/delay. While this config will only act as an attenuation for gain and clean modulation, not as a master volume for gain/boost, this may be my only option that does not require ditching my loop switcher.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, as I can’t see exactly what’s going on, but couldn’t you run your tuner through the tuner out of your buffer pedal, and free a loop that way?

Thanks for your responses. The Polytune has its own tuner out from the loop switcher. The buffer is first and last in chain, with guitar cable input and amp output.

 

[CandidPicker]

So you are looking to control the volume of an overdriven/distorted/gain signal and use the guitars volume pot to clean up the sound?

To me, the obvious solution would be to put the Volume at the end of the chain going into the amp and use the FX Loop to put in any modulation/delay/reverb. I don't know how you have your board but if you can take advantage of the FX Loop, you can use the Volume in between the board and the input jack on your Amp, then use the FX loop out back to the board to access all your modulation and then return it back to the amp. The advantage of the FX Loop (if you have one) is that all your FX are not affected by the pre-amp so can sound a lot cleaner and more natural - especially if you also use the gain channels on you amp. By putting in your volume in between the board and the input, you would have a 'master' volume for doing swells etc on all your overdrive/gain pedals and keep all the modulation etc in the FX loop

This is also an option, but my preference is to maintain the current modulation within the circuit and not utilize my amp's FX loop. I'd be concerned that putting my modulation effects into the FX loop would create a cabling mess that would also be less advantageous during open-mics, but could only be used for music room applications.

That, and the modulation pedal (a trem pedal) has only one set of I/Os, no send or returns. The reverb/delay pedal does, but not the trem pedal.

The amp is a Class A/B single preamp tube 35W combo, a Brunetti Singleman 35W combo. Awesome cleans reminiscent of old Fender amps, goes from tweed, to smooth, to fat. The Brunetti does possess an FX loop, but does not have more than one gain stage, just one clean channel that takes pedals well.

Please forgive my lack of understanding what you may be saying; you had mentioned that placing the volume at the end of the chain would allow the modulation effects to be placed within the FX loop using the effects pedals sends and returns as well as the amp's FX loop. For some reason I am at a loss to understand how this could work if one of the modulation effects has only one set of I/Os?

 

[CandidPicker]

Put the volume pedal in the loop with the gain pedals?

That would seem to be the last on my list of options. Would free up an extra loop (only one is required if the modulation pedal is the only concern and the compressor can move before the loop switcher).

My intuition tells me that it would likely be necessary to do what the Sweetwater rep said: Use the volume pedal as a gain attenuation and for modulation swells.

The only other option would be to combine the gain and boost effects into one loop (freeing up one loop for the volume pedal) and placing the compressor before the loop switcher (freeing up a 2nd loop for the modulation pedal).

That way, the volume pedal could remain always on within one loop, or be switched out of the loop, and no additional gear need be purchased. The only adjustment required would be tap-dancing on the gain and boost effects as needed when both would be selected as switched on in the loop.

Man, I think that if my girlfriend was as high maintenance as my effects board, I'd be done with both. Oh, well, as the Sweetwater rep said, "Happy Effects Board, Happy Life."

 

[Mozzi]

Please forgive my lack of understanding what you may be saying; you had mentioned that placing the volume at the end of the chain would allow the modulation effects to be placed within the FX loop using the effects pedals sends and returns as well as the amp's FX loop. For some reason I am at a loss to understand how this could work if one of the modulation effects has only one set of I/Os?

To be honest, I haven't got a clue what you are on about here.

What I was saying is that you have this 'chain' and this would be the way I would do it. It does take a couple more long cables as you have the extra two used in the FX loop.

Guitar-->--Overdrive/gain/distortion-->--Volume pedal-->Pre-amp--FX Loop out--Modulation--FX Loop In--Power Amp-->--Speaker

This way, you have the volume after the Gain etc as a master volume and can do swells if you want. I would have any Expression pedals off the Pedal board so you just plug the volume in between the cable you have going to the Amp from the pedal board.

A more simplified way would be Guitar-->--Pedal board-->--Expression Pedals-->--Amp

I don't know if your loop pedal can handle an FX loop or not. You don't have to have everything in loops either. You could have the easier to access pedals before the signal goes into the loop switcher and just use the loops for pedals on the top row. It shouldn't make too much difference if your guitar is passing through some pedals before or after the loop switcher. There are many people that would just have the signal pass through every pedal they have without having them in 'loops' so they easily see the chain and switch the order very easily. Using a volume pedal on the board - even on the first row for me wouldn't be easy - I have big feet and would prefer it either before or after the board - not on it. If you aren't using the FX loop, I would have the volume after the Pedal board. I am sure you have a cable from the pedal board to the Amp so I would put the Volume in here - a very short/patch cable to the volume pedal and then the cable to the Amp - the signal will always be passing through the Volume pedal in this arrangement but its easier than trying to reach the pedal on a pedal board and not hit any of the other buttons with my big feet.

 

[CandidPicker]

What I was saying is that you have this 'chain' and this would be the way I would do it. It does take a couple more long cables as you have the extra two used in the FX loop.

Guitar-->--Overdrive/gain/distortion-->--Volume pedal-->Pre-amp--FX Loop out--Modulation--FX Loop In--Power Amp-->--Speaker

This way, you have the volume after the Gain etc as a master volume and can do swells if you want. I would have any Expression pedals off the Pedal board so you just plug the volume in between the cable you have going to the Amp from the pedal board.

A more simplified way would be Guitar-->--Pedal board-->--Expression Pedals-->--Amp

I don't know if your loop pedal can handle an FX loop or not. You don't have to have everything in loops either. You could have the easier to access pedals before the signal goes into the loop switcher and just use the loops for pedals on the top row. It shouldn't make too much difference if your guitar is passing through some pedals before or after the loop switcher. There are many people that would just have the signal pass through every pedal they have without having them in 'loops' so they easily see the chain and switch the order very easily. Using a volume pedal on the board - even on the first row for me wouldn't be easy - I have big feet and would prefer it either before or after the board - not on it. If you aren't using the FX loop, I would have the volume after the Pedal board. I am sure you have a cable from the pedal board to the Amp so I would put the Volume in here - a very short/patch cable to the volume pedal and then the cable to the Amp - the signal will always be passing through the Volume pedal in this arrangement but its easier than trying to reach the pedal on a pedal board and not hit any of the other buttons with my big feet.

I think the concern is that the loop switcher isn't programmable with banks or an FX loop out, the switcher is merely a One Control IguanaTail 2 Loop Switcher. The compressor doesn't need to be within the loop switcher.

For clarification, here is what the board will approximately look like. My being left-footed requires the volume to reside to the left of the board. The mini-volume will serve as needed while still remaining on the board. The Loopmaster, Spark Mini and Dunlop Volume were sufficient substitutions for describing what's there.

My signal path would be thus: Guitar In > Empress Buffer (Send) > Ego Compressor (Always On) > One Control Looper In >> Polytune (Tuner Out) >> (Loop 1) Blue Note / Decibelics Golden Horse Mini > (Loop 2) Valeton VExpress (Passive) Volume > (Loop 3) Sentry Noise Gate (Always On) > (Loop 4) Dynatrem > (Loop 5) Immerse Reverb/Delay > One Control Looper Out >> Empress Buffer Return > Amp Out.

> denotes path flow; >> denotes I/O to/from loop switcher.

The Loop Switcher is powered but does not have an FX Loop Out option.

If possible, to avoid too much tap-dancing on the upper part of the board, my preference is to position both the gain and boost within one loop on the lower section of the board. Then dedicate one loop to the volume, immediately following that. Lastly, the remaining effects (save the buffer and tuner) can enjoy their own dedicated loops, with the compressor before the loop switcher circuit entirely.

 

[Mozzi]

I think the concern is that the loop switcher isn't programmable with banks or an FX loop out, the switcher is merely a One Control IguanaTail 2 Loop Switcher. The compressor doesn't need to be within the loop switcher, though the Pedaltrain board itself can accommodate only 3 more modest-sized effects, a mini volume pedal, and perhaps one Boss-standard-sized effect, and perhaps one more Boss or mini effect.

For clarification, here is what the board will approximately look like. My being left-footed requires the volume to reside to the left of the board. The mini-volume will serve as needed while still remaining on the board. The Loopmaster, Spark Mini and Dunlop Volume were sufficient substitutions for describing what's there.

My signal path would be thus: Guitar In > Empress Buffer (Send) > Ego Compressor (Always On) > One Control Looper In >> Polytune (Tuner Out) >> (Loop 1) Blue Note / Decibelics Golden Horse Mini > (Loop 2) Valeton VExpress (Passive) Volume > (Loop 3) Sentry Noise Gate (Always On) > (Loop 4) Dynatrem > (Loop 5) Immerse Reverb/Delay > One Control Looper Out >> Empress Buffer Return > Amp Out.

> denotes path flow; >> denotes I/O to/from loop switcher.

The Loop Switcher is powered but does not have an FX Loop Out option.

If possible, to avoid too much tap-dancing on the upper part of the board, my preference is to position both the gain and boost within one loop on the lower section of the board. Then dedicate one loop to the volume, immediately following that. Lastly, the remaining effects (save the buffer and tuner) can enjoy their own dedicated loops, with the compressor before the loop switcher circuit entirely.

At the end of the day, you have to do what's right for you and with the gear you have - unless you want to spend more money of course. There is no right/wrong order for pedals really - it just depends on what sounds you want. Pedal order can create some interesting effects.

As I am not an 'active' gigging musician, I don't really need a static pedal board and can just put pedals in the chain as I want them to be. If I want a Volume pedal after the tone shaping (Distortion, Boost, Overdrive etc) pedals, I can just slot it in the chain. I think I would still put the volume just after the Loop switch in your build. The cable that goes into your amp would be coming out of the volume pedal either on the board as you have illustrated or beside it. Either way, the signal would always be passing through it on the way to the amp. If you don't want the modulation on when using the volume, you can turn it off. It shouldn't matter if the modulation is before or after the volume pedal as its a master volume and will affect the signal and modulation regardless...

 

[CandidPicker]

...I think I would still put the volume just after the Loop switch in your build. The cable that goes into your amp would be coming out of the volume pedal either on the board as you have illustrated or beside it. Either way, the signal would always be passing through it on the way to the amp. If you don't want the modulation on when using the volume, you can turn it off. It shouldn't matter if the modulation is before or after the volume pedal as its a master volume and will affect the signal and modulation regardless...

Thanks for your input. I think what you've said about placing the volume after the loop switcher (but before or after the buffer return?) might be an option as well.

The pro vs. con might be with the volume immediately after the gain pedals you'd have a master volume for the gain stage AND a volume pedal that could perform clean modulation swells.

The con would be with the volume after the loop switcher you'd only have a master volume for the entire board. The pro regards your suggestion is that one would not need combine the gain stages into one loop. AND, if necessary one could simply power down the overdrive and maintain the boost for clean modulation swells.

I think both are good tips in both directions, and I may explore both options in order to determine whether one works better for my needs or not.

Thanks again, and I'll credit your idea if the board works better with the latter option.

 

[CandidPicker]

Spent some time doing some occupational therapy and was working with my hands Friday evening. Here is my solution for my effects board. What was done was to place the Noise Gate outside the loop switcher just before the buffer return input.

What that did was consider effects that would always be switched on, vs. effects that could be switched on or off within the One Control.

The other remaining effects that are always on are the Empress buffer, Ego Compressor and Polytune Noir, switched off the circuit with tuner out. The signal path now consists of:

Guitar Input In > Empress Buffer Loop Out > Wampler Ego Compressor (Always On) >> Polytune Noir >> One Control Loopswitcher >> (Loop 1) Blue Note Overdrive > (Loop 2) Decibelics Golden Horse Mini-Klon/Boost > (Loop 3) Valton VExpress Mini-Volume/Expression > (Loop 4) Keeley Dynatrem Harmonic Tremolo > (Loop 5) Neunaber Immerse v.1 >> One Control Loopswitcher Output > TC Sentry Noise Gate (Always On) > Empress Buffer Loop In > Amp Out

 

[CandidPicker]

Finally got a chance to "look under the hood" and do some maintenance on the above effects board. I think I need to bring my Ego Compressor into an audio tech (perhaps Monday?) and ask him to check the effect's function...the volume doesn't seem to significantly increase when turned up, and only seems to be passing signal without any appreciable function. (Perhaps a bad volume pot?) I've owned this particular compressor since 2010 and am almost sure its lifetime is about reached. The effect is out of warranty and likely would need replacing if the pedal fails an oscilloscope test.

The remainder of the board does adequately and what it's supposed to. Time to check with my sales reps again in case of relegating this worn-out piece to the audio tech for scrap and perhaps bartering for a couple pair of 12AX7's he has in shop.

 

[CandidPicker]

What about leaving the volume pedal out of the loops...aren't you going to run it at the beginning of your chain anyways?

That was considered, though the idea was to provide a master volume for the overdrive/boost, and as a clean volume for the remaining modulation effects. The mini-volume now resides on loop 3.

If you want some input as to rejigging, the polytune has a built in buffer and the compressor doesn't need to be in a loop (I leave compressor as always on a bit to thicken the sound), and is the noise gate really necessary with your guitars and amp and type of music you play?

Suggest: TC tuner > Compressor > switcher using 3 pedals, try leaving out the buffer and you have more loops to play with

Thanks for your suggestion, the tuner has a dedicated tuner out that connects to the loop switcher, can remain always on when gigging, and can be switched on/off from the loop switcher. The compressor follows the buffer, both before the loop switcher.

At the end of the day, you have to do what's right for you and with the gear you have - unless you want to spend more money of course. There is no right/wrong order for pedals really - it just depends on what sounds you want. Pedal order can create some interesting effects.

Understood. Wasn't planning on spending more money on the FX board, but may need to if the compressor oscilloscope test fails (seems the compressor volume knob doesn't increase the effect's volume appreciably, may be a bad pot)

As I am not an 'active' gigging musician, I don't really need a static pedal board and can just put pedals in the chain as I want them to be. If I want a Volume pedal after the tone shaping (Distortion, Boost, Overdrive etc) pedals, I can just slot it in the chain. I think I would still put the volume just after the Loop switch in your build. The cable that goes into your amp would be coming out of the volume pedal either on the board as you have illustrated or beside it. Either way, the signal would always be passing through it on the way to the amp. If you don't want the modulation on when using the volume, you can turn it off. It shouldn't matter if the modulation is before or after the volume pedal as its a master volume and will affect the signal and modulation regardless...

Placing the Immerse Reverb/Delay after (outside) the loop provided an extra loop without piggybacking any effects within the loop switcher. There's plenty of room regards power ports, plenty of amperage remaining within the T Rex Classic power supply, and I may even have enough left over to buy a decent sandwich once this is said and done. And feed the neighbor who had to put up with my FX board test drive this afternoon.