Silver Sky - I love it but I need to change the radius, PLEK??? Has anyone done this???

[alantig]

The action is plenty low on my Silver Sky and it does not fret out. That was one of the first things @BeerBatteredPhish and I checked when we test drove this one back at release. We bent all over the neck, and big bends, no fretting out. I don't know how low you want the action to be, but this is plenty low (I can get some string buzz on the lower strings if I play agressively).

Thinking about it even more, it doesn't seem logical that a bent note would fret out unless you bend it past the high point of the radius. If you fret a note on the E string at the 12th fret, the string stays above the 13th fret and higher, right? As you bend that note up, the string rides the fret so when you bend as far as the B string, it's now on the B string 12th, which is higher than the first string 12th on the radius, plus the string is angled from there to the first string saddle, passing over those frets which are lower on the radius. The same should hold up to the G string. Now, when you go as far as to the D string, you should be past the high point of the radius, thus starting to go lower. Then, maybe you would be subject to some fretting out. But it seems like that's more of an issue if you're bending the B or G strings (or pulling the D or A towards the floor).

Regardless, mine doesn't fret out, and the action is plenty low.

 

[alantig]

This would be a great math geometry problem to give.

While the above is sound I think the missing part is: as you bend the e/b/G strings their height relative to the saddle increases (the saddle isn't moving), and the rounder the radius the faster it increases.

In doing so the string angle relative to the fingerboard decreases, which is to say: the action decreases.

In contrast a flat radius would have no change in string angle/action no matter how much you bend (aside from the slight length increase you get from the fretted note to the saddle by bending the string).

So yes: smaller radius fingerboards will fret out much faster than flatter ones as the action is lowered.
While the action on the SS USA worked for me too at 4/64" w/o fretting out, I have no doubt that anyone wanting lower action would run into issues.

It's difficult to explain w/o an image, and I'd love to see it all worked out. You're right in that the angle from the fret at 1.12 (1st string, 12th fret) to 1.0 (1st string saddle) is flatter than the angle from 3.12 to 1.0. But 3 is also higher vertically in terms of the radius. We know that 3.12 to 3.0 doesn't fret out, and 2.12 to 2.0 doesn't fret out. The question would be at what point does that angle from 3.12 to 1.0 start to fret out on the frets between the 2nd and 3rd string (presuming it's not between 1 and 2). My action is at 4/64 and it's fine. Not sure how low it would have to be to fret out, but I don't need it any lower.

This may be something to look at after work if I can scrounge out the time.

 

[24Fretter]

From your description we agree that the clearance past the fretted fret diminishes as you bend, and diminishes faster the smaller the radius is.
That's all that's needed to confirm radius does matter.
Deriving the action vs radius for it to choke could be interesting, but time is better spent playing

Factory setup is based on John's specs, which is to say rather high action for me personally; he's definitely not going to choke strings.
I don't go lower than 4/64" myself because strings tend to slip under my fingers when bending; and my picking is not light and would cause frequent buzzing w/o even bending if I were going much lower than that.

64ths is not a particularly accurate measurement. I think in thousandths. After setting up a few thousand guitars, the answer to your question is as follows. NOTE: This assumes everything about the fretwork is RIGHT. By RIGHT I mean that sufficient fall away is there and in the right places, that everything from 1-9 was levelled dead straight and everything after was levelled with fall away, etc. If everything else isn't RIGHT, the numbers are higher. Very few guitars I see are RIGHT without some work (sometimes a lot of work):

12" Radius or above: .030" high E, .05" low E, but your truss rod will have to be very straight and you'll get 'some' buzz unless you use very heavy strings, i.e. 13s or more. Works for very heavy strings or a very light touch, will not fret out.

10" Radius: .040" (i.e. 1mm) high E, .055" low E. 10s or heavier recommended. 9s get very plinky.

9.5" Radius: .0475" high E, .055" low E

7.5" Raidius: .06" high E through low E, i.e. about 4/64".

 

[ScottR]

If they come out with a maple board version I shall be sorely tempted.

And I shall be sorely getting one!

 

[alantig]

And I shall be sorely getting one!

I just used a credit card.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

64ths is not a particularly accurate measurement.

If only we had some way of standardizing them...

 

[24Fretter]

If only we had some way of standardizing them...

We do...thousandths. Good luthiers think in thousandths. Engineers and machinists often think in even smaller tolerances.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

We do...thousandths. Good luthiers think in thousandths. Engineers and machinists often think in even smaller tolerances.

But we're talking guitar string height. Obviously I was joking, but as "feel conscious" as I am on my guitars, I think 64ths will get me close enough. How do you even measure thousands on string height? You'd need something that fit between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string, right? And how much difference can a couple thousandths make?

 

[24Fretter]

But we're talking guitar string height. Obviously I was joking, but as "feel conscious" as I am on my guitars, I think 64ths will get me close enough. How do you even measure thousands on string height? You'd need something that fit between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string, right? And how much difference can a couple thousandths make?

With a mechanical ruler that measures hundredths, magnifying shop glasses, and knowing how to eyeball the thousandths. I've found people can feel very subtle changes. Many people can definitely feel a difference of .005.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Many people can definitely feel a difference of .005.

hmmm... guess I'm not as feel conscious as I thought.

Still would like to see what device measures this. If it's not some kind of caliper that goes between fret and string, magnifying glasses or not I don't know how you could accurately measure 1/1000 of an inch differences in string height. With machinery and other items there are calipers, lasers etc. that can do it. But I'm not sure what device could accurately measure the top of one rounded surface (fret) to the bottom of another rounded surface (string) in that fine of a measurement.

Only my opinion, but I have a hard time believing that "many" people can feel a difference of .005 inch. That is roughly 1/150"... and you're saying many people can definitely feel that? Not trying to be argumentative. But that is hard for me to swallow.

 

[24Fretter]

hmmm... guess I'm not as feel conscious as I thought.

Still would like to see what device measures this. If it's not some kind of caliper that goes between fret and string, magnifying glasses or not I don't know how you could accurately measure 1/1000 of an inch differences in string height. With machinery and other items there are calipers, lasers etc. that can do it. But I'm not sure what device could accurately measure the top of one rounded surface (fret) to the bottom of another rounded surface (string) in that fine of a measurement.

Only my opinion, but I have a hard time believing that "many" people can feel a difference of .005 inch. That is roughly 1/150"... and you're saying many people can definitely feel that? Not trying to be argumentative. But that is hard for me to swallow.

I can eyeball pretty close to that with a mechanical ruler and magnifiers yes. And yes, many people can feel .005" differences in action height. Not your average cowboy chord/pentatonic box player, but advanced players.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I can eyeball pretty close to that with a mechanical ruler and magnifiers yes. And yes, many people can feel .005" differences in action height. Not your average cowboy chord/pentatonic box player, but advanced players.

Well I sure as heck ain't THAT advanced. I can tell the difference in different strings of the same gauge. (not as much as in the old days, but still some variance in string size from pack to pack). I can tell the difference in adjusting 1/64, easily, but somewhere around 1/160somthingth of an inch. Nope, I'm not that advanced. Nor, are my eyes good enough to use a ruler and measure it.

 

[dmatthews]

Well I sure as heck ain't THAT advanced. I can tell the difference in different strings of the same gauge. (not as much as in the old days, but still some variance in string size from pack to pack). I can tell the difference in adjusting 1/64, easily, but somewhere around 1/160somthingth of an inch. Nope, I'm not that advanced. Nor, are my eyes good enough to use a ruler and measure it.

None of us (especially me) are up to his standard. He knows everything it would seem.
That's OK...there's room for all.

 

[24Fretter]

Well I sure as heck ain't THAT advanced. I can tell the difference in different strings of the same gauge. (not as much as in the old days, but still some variance in string size from pack to pack). I can tell the difference in adjusting 1/64, easily, but somewhere around 1/160somthingth of an inch. Nope, I'm not that advanced. Nor, are my eyes good enough to use a ruler and measure it.

I didn't say people can feel .001". I said that's the language we speak. I said a lot of people can feel .005". I personally can feel about half that.

None of us (especially me) are up to his standard. He knows everything it would seem.
That's OK...there's room for all.

I sure as Sh!t know this stuff! But then I've been studying it for 30 years and doing the work. What have you been studying and working on for 30 years? Do you know anything about it at all?

 

[dmatthews]

I didn't say people can feel .001". I said that's the language we speak. I said a lot of people can feel .005". I personally can feel about half that.




I sure as Sh!t know this stuff! But then I've been studying it for 30 years and doing the work. What have you been studying and working on for 30 years? Do you know anything about it at all?

I'm 65 and I own a company that has been in telecom for 38 years.
Doesn't matter.
You are welcome to say whatever you wish.

 

[24Fretter]

I'm 65 and I own a company that has been in telecom for 38 years.
Doesn't matter.
You are welcome to say whatever you wish.

So do you know a little something about telecom? More than say, the average user of telecom?

 

[dmatthews]

So do you know a little something about telecom? More than say, the average user of telecom?

Certainly not as much as you do about guitar setups.

 

[24Fretter]

Certainly not as much as you do about guitar setups.

Don't forget fretwork. And perhaps not, direct me to your postings on telecom issues so I can accuse you of something.

 

[dmatthews]

Don't forget fretwork. And perhaps not, direct me to your postings on telecom issues so I can accuse you of something.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

didn't say people can feel .001". I said that's the language we speak. I said a lot of people can feel .005". I personally can feel about half that.

According to the google, that’s 1/400 of and inch. What kind of player are you? I can play fast and I bend, and regardless of how advanced I am as a player I can’t fathom being able to tell 1/400 of an inch difference in string height.

That’s one microscopic piece of dust that gets on your nut when you’re changing strings and raises your height that much so… if that happens, You know something is wrong?