Signal chain for a (SE) Hollowbody II Piezo

[Rocketscientist90]

Hi!

I recently visited a local guitar store in search of a new guitar and gelled most with the PRSes (SE CE 24 and SE Hollowbody II Piezo). Especially the last one has caught my eye, and I consider getting it soon. The piezo output, however, puts me in a dilemma on how to proceed with the signal chain.

My current setup consists of a:
- Boss Nextone Special amplifier (that i typically play at the lowest 0.5 W setting, which can be plenty load already)
- Boss DD-200 delay pedal
- Boss RV-200 reverb pedal
- Walrus Audio Iron Horse v3 distortion pedal
- Walrus Audio ACS-1 amp+cab. sim pedal (that I mainly use for silent practice now)

I consider adding a Boss RC-10R or RC-600 looper/rythm-style pedal for looping and practice in the future.

In terms of drive I use the lead channel of the amp for crunch/overdrive and the Iron Horse for real distortion.

And perhaps relevant for the rest of the discussion:
- Radial Engineering ProD2 (two channel DI, that I normally use for my piano)
- FocusRite Clarett 8 channel mic. amplifier

I am trying to figure out options for the future signal chain that will get me the most out of both outputs of the guitar. I am a "bedroom player" (although not playing in a bedroom ) and am not playing gigs, nor am I considering doing that any time soon.

I do have a small music corner in our living room, where I have two guitars hanging on the wall, the guitar amp and pedals and a piano. For the foreseable future I will be limited to this limited amount of space. Dutch houses tend to have a rather open plan form, so no separate music room for me.

From reading these forums and watching videos on the SE HB II Piezo I came to the following options:

* Option 1 (single cable into electric guitar amp):
Use the mix/piezo output into the electric guitar amp with the piezo volume dialed back to 1-3. As far as I understand now, that introduces a pleasant amount of additional high-end and still sounds good through an electric guitar amp.

This will probably be the starting point for now, as I cannot afford to buy the guitar and the rest of the signal chain now. I am curious though what would be a nice way forward. I could use the DI and mic. amp to get both channels into the computer for recording purposes and playing around with different signal chain options, but that requires quite a bit more setup then just switching on the power and grabbing the guitar of the wall.

* Option 2 (run two cables into two amps):
There are several flavours of this option that more or less achieve the same thing.

* Option 2A (physical amps):
Send the magnetic pickup signal into the electric guitar signal chain and into electric guitar amp, and similarly send the piezo pickup into an acoustic guitar amp.

For example:
- Fishman Loudbox series
- Boss Acoustic Singer series
- Roland AC series
- Acus ONE FORSTRINGS FERDI series

I think that most of these will be way too loud for my purposes of playing in the living room at night, but would be good options when gigging.

* Option 2B (modelling amp + full range flat response speaker):
Modelling amps, like the Line6 Helix Rack/Floor, Kemper Profiler or Fractal Audio FM9 / Axe-FX III have the possibility of modelling two signal paths at the same time. The mid-range models are limited to a single input as far as I can tell. The resulting signal paths can then be mixed into a single active FRFR speaker.

Does anyone have experience with this? Is there sufficient processing power available for a normal electric guitar signal path and the piezo path (IR > EQ > REVERB > OUTPUT)?

Any other limitations or considerations that are relevant here?


* Option 2C (amp. sim pedals and FRFR speaker):
Basically do away with the amp, replace it by an FRFR speaker and use pedals instead of a modeler.

In that case, the magnetic pickups go into the Walrus ACS-1, and the piezo pickups into an IR-loader and/or acoustic amp pedal such as the LR Bagss Venue DI. The piezo signal then still goes into a separate active FRFR speaker.

Pedals to consider here:

** IR loaders (for loading acoustic guitar IRs, not for amp/cab sims)
- Boss IR-2
- TC Electronic Impulse
- Fishman Aura Spectrum (IR + 3-band EQ + DI)
** Pre-amp/DI
- LR Baggs Venue DI
- LR Baggs Para DI
- LR Baggs Session DI
- Fishman Platinum PRO EQ/DI/Preamp
** EQ
- Boss EQ-200 (2 channel 10-band EQ-pedal)
- Fishman AFX PRO EQ MINI Preamp+EQ
or something like an HX Stomp to take care of the entire piezo signal path.

I believe that the SE HB Piezo II has a built-in preamp, so I guess I don't necessarily need an additional pre-amp to get the signal level right to go into an active FRFR speaker, which has its own power-amp, but expects line-level inputs. Is this true?

* Option 2D (one into an amp, the other into FRFR):
Magnetic pickups into the electric guitar amp and the piezo into a pedal-based signal train as described in option 2C and then into an FRFR speaker.
Together with option 1 this one takes up the most amount of space.



Did I miss one? Do you have any suggestions?

Of the options above, options 2B and 2C seem the most versatile and most compact options as all sound will be routed through the same FRFR speaker. Considering that I have limited space available and am not playing at loud, these currently look most appealing.


Edit: Where i write FRFR speakers, you may also read studio monitors. Probably at the volumes that I play at, those would more than suffice.

 

[Rocketscientist90]

So, while this topic was under moderation, I did some thinking and figured that diagrams can help.
Option 1 is not drawn, because that requires no changes to my current setup. The figure below I've drawn Option 2C (all pedals), Option 2D (one amp, one via pedals) and Option 2B (all through a modeling amp). It's basically the same signal chain, but realized in different ways and different output.

Anyone got any experiences or insights to share?

For the looper I used the Boss RC-600 as an example, as that one can send different inputs to different outputs, and can output its percussion/rhythm output to a separate channel.

 

[Glide-bpm]

So, while this topic was under moderation, I did some thinking and figured that diagrams can help.
Option 1 is not drawn, because that requires no changes to my current setup. The figure below I've drawn Option 2C (all pedals), Option 2D (one amp, one via pedals) and Option 2B (all through a modeling amp). It's basically the same signal chain, but realized in different ways and different output.

Anyone got any experiences or insights to share?

For the looper I used the Boss RC-600 as an example, as that one can send different inputs to different outputs, and can output its percussion/rhythm output to a separate channel.

I'll chirp in for the FM9/Axe FX III route.... or even the Neural Quad Cortex. I have all 3 in addition to all the amps and cabs.

I also have a Laney LFR-212 FRFR, a Laney LFR-412 FRFR, and a Fender Tourmaster FR-12 FRFR.
In addition to that, there are numerous PA monitor options, particularly JBL EON715's as sidefill monitors on stage and using
no FRFR powered cab.

The newest FM9 and Axe III firmware versions are super killer, particularly in the amp model improvements! Fractal is VERY
fast at putting out beta Firmware to the public and warning others that don't want the beta ride to wait until the release versions.

 

[Rocketscientist90]

I've looked into severel modelers: Kemper Rack, Line6 Helix Rack, Axe FX III and the Neural Quad Cortex. Not sure yet which to pick, but the Axe FX III is quite a bit more expensive here than the other three. Just because of price and availability I will have to remove that one from the list. Even though it looks like a very capable unit.

How do you like the various FRFR cabinets? Beside the sounds, I like it that the Laney and Fender look like amp cabinets. Even though a good PA monitor will get you the same or better results sonically.

 

[Rocketscientist90]

@Daryl Jones, maybe you also want to chime in here. In the Introduce yourself topic, you mentioned that you run it into two separate amps.

 

[Abe]

I've seen a handful of SE HB II Piezo owners say the Piezo was very hot, even sounding overdriven clean. I knew it would be a bit of an ordeal to set it up right on a rig. Seen a video of a PRS guy showing how to adjust the individual string volumes on the Piezo. You'll probably have to set it up then tweak it more to your liking. I thought about it quite a bit then ultimately decided against the Piezo version and just got the regular SE HB II, and I still have my nice Taylor for access to good acoustic sound.

Good luck.

 

[Rocketscientist90]

I've seen a handful of SE HB II Piezo owners say the Piezo was very hot, even sounding overdriven clean. I knew it would be a bit of an ordeal to set it up right on a rig. Seen a video of a PRS guy showing how to adjust the individual string volumes on the Piezo. You'll probably have to set it up then tweak it more to your liking. I thought about it quite a bit then ultimately decided against the Piezo version and just got the regular SE HB II, and I still have my nice Taylor for access to good acoustic sound.

Good luck.

If you know where I can find that video I would be very greatful. That sounds like an important aspect to consider. I have also read that indeed it is can be very hot in comparison to the magnetic pickups, but I thought that there was a single pot that controlled the overall output volume. If there is only one for each individual string, that would complicate the basic setup.

Both the HB II and HB II Piezo seem to be fantastic instruments .

 

[Abe]

Here ya go. I timestamped it to start at the Piezo part of the video. Individual Piezo volumes for each of the 6 strings. Kinda like similar to what pole pieces on magnetic pickups do for strings' response. He doesn't go into a huge amount of detail other than to show you where the 6 screws are behind the battery.

 

[Rocketscientist90]

Thanks Abe! He does mention that on top of the board there is an overall volume for the piezo, so I guess that if you pull the entire PCB, you can adjust the overal volume relatively easily as well.

 

[Abe]

Yea. Probably things you will find yourself wanting to adjust to your liking. Your idea for the two direction rig sounds great, and once you have it dialed in you should be able to use one, the other, or the duo and have all kinds of pleasing sound.

 

[Daryl Jones]

Here ya go. I timestamped it to start at the Piezo part of the video. Individual Piezo volumes for each of the 6 strings. Kinda like similar to what pole pieces on magnetic pickups do for strings' response. He doesn't go into a huge amount of detail other than to show you where the 6 screws are behind the battery.

I knew about the potentiometer on the board, but I did not know about the 6 other adjustment screws in the battery compartment so thanks for that. One day when I get really bold I might adjust them a wee bit. I did dial back the overall volume of the Piezo a little bit, but I'm getting much better at using the control knobs. I used to run the Piezo on 10 all the time, and use the amp controls to dial it back, but now I'm having better success with the sounds utilizing both together. Part of it is learning your/my rig and seeing what floats the boat. That includes the mags as well.

 

[Daryl Jones]

@Daryl Jones, maybe you also want to chime in here. In the Introduce yourself topic, you mentioned that you run it into two separate amps.

It's really very simple. I run the Piezo into the Katana 50 (separate cord) and play through the acoustic channel of the amp. I thought briefly about buying a separate acoustic amp, but so far the Katana is performing very admirably and I really don't want to get into another piece of gear so I let the "GAS" bleed off a tad on that. The mags I run into my Blackstar 20 (other output "mags" jack) on the clean channel and use my footswitch to enhance or kick in the overdrive for more effect. I like the amp's "voice" control and it does really well for giving some added boost on certain riffs or solos without going full Monty on the overdrive channel. Just a moderate added gain and mild OD. Sorry I don't have any photos of that setup but it's really straight forward. Took a bit of monkeying around with the dials and settings to nail it down, but it's been working quite well for me.

 

[Glide-bpm]

I've looked into severel modelers: Kemper Rack, Line6 Helix Rack, Axe FX III and the Neural Quad Cortex. Not sure yet which to pick, but the Axe FX III is quite a bit more expensive here than the other three. Just because of price and availability I will have to remove that one from the list. Even though it looks like a very capable unit.

How do you like the various FRFR cabinets? Beside the sounds, I like it that the Laney and Fender look like amp cabinets. Even though a good PA monitor will get you the same or better results sonically.

Fractal FM9 Turbo.... cheaper than Axe III. Still VERY powerful!!!

 

[TheCraftsman]

I'll chirp in for the FM9/Axe FX III route.... or even the Neural Quad Cortex. I have all 3 in addition to all the amps and cabs.

I also have a Laney LFR-212 FRFR, a Laney LFR-412 FRFR, and a Fender Tourmaster FR-12 FRFR.
In addition to that, there are numerous PA monitor options, particularly JBL EON715's as sidefill monitors on stage and using
no FRFR powered cab.

The newest FM9 and Axe III firmware versions are super killer, particularly in the amp model improvements! Fractal is VERY
fast at putting out beta Firmware to the public and warning others that don't want the beta ride to wait until the release versions.

Currently thinking about whether I wanna upgrade to a QC or FM9 - thoughts? I’m a living room player not gigging just running through Logic and enjoying life and music. What do you think the life expectancies are of fm9 vs qc? Currently only running a boss me90 and an RC600 and have some neural plugins and IRs, I thought I was sold on the QC until I started researching the fm9 (Yes I know the PRS Core or Westie should come before these things but we do what we can)

 

[Rocketscientist90]

I have for now settled on this design as a baseline. I now know that what I want to achieve is possible and within the realm of possibility (both technically and in terms of cost. Time to start saving up some money to finance it all .

At the heart of the system is the combination of a modeling amplifier (in this case the Line6 Helix, but can be any of the higher end modelers) and the microphone pre-amp that I already have. I chose the rack form-factor, as I want to combine it with some other studio equipment that I already have. This also makes recording fairly straight forward, as the mic. preamp is a AISO multi-channel audio interface.

The microphone pre-amp can also work stand-alone, and functions as a mixer that runs of a pre-loaded routing table. The volumes can still be controlled on the front of the unit. The pre-amp also outputs to headphones and two studio monitors.
I opted for studio monitors because:
1. they are small enough to sit on top of the piano
2. offer a full range and flat response
3. and can be used for stereo routing or putting the acoustic signal on one side, and the electric on the other side (as if working with two physical amps).

In the effects loops there are optionally the effects pedals that I already own (stereo delay, stereo reverb, overdrive), and an eq-pedal in a separate effects loop. From what I've seen and read about EQ in modelers it seems that they can take up quiet a bit of computation power, and don't offer the flexibility of having a proper EQ pedal. We'll see how well that goes when running through the modeler, but there is enough space and connectivity for an external unit.

There will be a separate tuner on the guitar through, which can also be used for guitar maintenance and intonation. I don't want to rely on the built in tuner for this.

In the modeler I will be loading acoustic guitar impulse responses for the piezo output of the guitar. There is already a discussion on where to get them and which ones are better than others in this topic here: https://forums.prsguitars.com/threads/se-hb-ii-piezo-ir-suggestions.58399/

The only thing I haven't figured out yet is whether I want to incorporate a separate looper/rhythm pedal, or just solve that via software on the PC (like Ableton Live + Looper). I don't think I will be looping that often, and will mainly be playing over backing tracks.

 

[Glide-bpm]

Currently thinking about whether I wanna upgrade to a QC or FM9 - thoughts? I’m a living room player not gigging just running through Logic and enjoying life and music. What do you think the life expectancies are of fm9 vs qc? Currently only running a boss me90 and an RC600 and have some neural plugins and IRs, I thought I was sold on the QC until I started researching the fm9 (Yes I know the PRS Core or Westie should come before these things but we do what we can)

The FM9 is killer, a tank, and you have an extremely faster evolution of the product with frequent optimal beta updates on a regular basis.

I love my QC as well, but they are big on promises and slow on action with firmware updates. Still a great device and also built well. QC is way more compact than the FM9.

If I could only own one, it would be the Fractal FM9 (and I'm not a fanboy. I've owned everything but the kitchen sink.

I'm just as bad with 4 plus channel tube amps. LoL! Hughes & Kettner Triamp Mark 3 and an Egnater Tourmaster 4100. I take my music boxes very seriously. Don't even let me start with mixers and PA systems. ROFLMFAO!!!

Good luck deciding!

 

[TheCraftsman]

The FM9 is killer, a tank, and you have an extremely faster evolution of the product with frequent optimal beta updates on a regular basis.

I love my QC as well, but they are big on promises and slow on action with firmware updates. Still a great device and also built well. QC is way more compact than the FM9.

If I could only own one, it would be the Fractal FM9 (and I'm not a fanboy. I've owned everything but the kitchen sink.

I'm just as bad with 4 plus channel tube amps. LoL! Hughes & Kettner Triamp Mark 3 and an Egnater Tourmaster 4100. I take my music boxes very seriously. Don't even let me start with mixers and PA systems. ROFLMFAO!!!

Good luck deciding!

Sounds like I just need to accept the additional €700 and front for the FM9, I’ve wanted a QC for a long time especially with their plugins and stuff being really great in the DAW but yes there’s the flimsy power cable, floor hum and slow slow releases, fractal obviously more mature but I don’t think there’s anything it can’t do and the instant switching is a big plus. Ok the UI will take some getting used to but that’s true of anything. Appreciate the input and is pretty much online with my research so far. It seems QC relied a lot on influencers and to be honest I don’t need profiling at all.

 

[TheCraftsman]

Of course the other option is to stick with what I’ve got and look for a used core

 

[tdroid]

Here ya go. I timestamped it to start at the Piezo part of the video. Individual Piezo volumes for each of the 6 strings. Kinda like similar to what pole pieces on magnetic pickups do for strings' response. He doesn't go into a huge amount of detail other than to show you where the 6 screws are behind the battery.

This only applies to the Core model. The SE model has a master volume adjustment on the circuit board, but you can't adjust the individual strings.

 

[Rocketscientist90]

Ha, you are right of course. For those who that are interested or that found this topic via their favorite search engine, it is also on the PRS support page (click)