SE Intonation Query

[seandesigner]

I bought my SE Custom 22 Semi Hollow a few months ago. I changed from the stock 9 Guage Strings pretty much straight away. I Use standard 10-46 Guage Strings, but found I had some slight tuning issues. So I Upgraded to a Tusq XL nut and locking tuners. This fixed my tuning Issues Perfectly. As part of the setup I adjusted my intonation (stoptail bridge) on the high and low E Strings. While I can get the Low E spot on, the high E Fretted at the 12th gets about 3 cents sharp of the harmonic before I seem to run out of grub screw. In Fact there is a gap of about 1mm visible between the bridge and the post head. I can even see the grub screw in the gap. I dare not go any further for risk of damaging the screw/bridge/post. I run a fairly low action, with only slight neck relief. So I find it difficult to see how I run out of adjustment room.

Has anyone else had this problem? Anyone have any suggestions on what the problem may be and how I may fix it?

Cheers

 

[seandesigner]

 

[dogrocketp]

I`ve never seen one run out like that. Is it possible the nut was set incorrectly? I have Schroeder bridges on my two stoptails.

 

[seandesigner]

I'm fairly sure the nut is set correctly.

I've taken a quick measurement from the post heads (approx centre)to the nut. Bass post is 641mm treble post is 637mm. I don't know if this is relevant.

I've thought about changing to an adjustable bridge like the Schroeder. But keen to see if this is an issue first.

 

[grausch]

What's your intonation like at the third fret when you fret a G? I am taking a guess, but if your nut is too high it causes intonation issues. Usually this would manifest across all of the strings, but it is all I can think of now.

With these type of bridges and running those gauge strings, you should be able to get both your wound and unwound strings intonated quite easily - the math to get the string lengths right stays the same.

 

[seandesigner]

The nut is set with just a little bit of clearance on all strings when fretted at the third. The stock tusq was a little high so I removed a bit from the bottom. Fretted at the third, its within a cent.

 

[seandesigner]

I've ordered a new nut. As that was the only significant change. However I'd never checked the intonation before making the changes. One thing to note I tried turning the grub screw just a touch more, sure enough it was at the end of its range.

I measured the nut to the saddle of the high E. it measures 635mm which is exactly the 25" scale length it's supposed to be. It seems strange that it should measure this at the end of its adjustment range. Could the post be in the wrong position?

 

[grausch]

I am really not sure what the issue is - usually with these type of bridges once your intonation is set all the strings are intonated. If you were ok at the third fret, then it just means that the nut height was correct and that potential problem has been ruled out.

Based on your posts, I am assuming that your intonation was good before changing the nut. Have you checked intonation on all of your strings, or just the Es? My first thought that all your other strings were fine, but the high E wasn't, but on rereading your posts it appears I was mistaken and you just checked the Es.

 

[seandesigner]

The the only one spot on is the low e. The others are out only slightly getting progressively worse towards the high e. I tried setting up with the b string, but it was out roughly the same amount as the e. Which is as expected. I suppose that’s the problem with this type of bridge. It needs both high and low e’s to be intonated for the rest to be.

To be honest it’s only minor and is barely noticeable while playing as it’s only about 3-4 cents out. My concern is more that there may be a more fundamental problem. While i’ve got a fairly good understanding of guitar setup, this is my first with a bridge like this so has me stumped.

 

[dogrocketp]

I`m also assuming you`ve adjusted your neck relief before resetting the bridge. I do a lot of my own setup work. I Learned a while ago that an improper nut kills everything else. I always have the best luthier in the area do the nut.

 

[Stoptail22]

The gap that is visible at the high E stud of the bridge shows that the bridge is not proper installed. Be sure that the bridge can be set on the studs with no force. When the studs have different heights during bridge install, the bridge may stick.

If you have another well set-upped 10-46 stringed PRS, you can measure the correct scales for the low E and high E strings.

 

[seandesigner]

Cheers for all the comments/suggestions guys.

The relief is only slight, near level, just enough to prevent string buzz. The bridge is installed properly and doesn’t stick when the strings are removed and has moved smoothly throughout the whole range of adjustment. The gap occurs when the adjustment grub screw has pushed the bridge so far away from the post. It just seems to have reached its limit before it can be set correctly.

And trust me i’d Love to have another prs to compare it to I was looking at some in the store the other day... but no my wife would kill me.

 

[bluenova]

Order a Mannmade bridge, set it perfect and call it a day.

 

[Atomic]

I bought my SE Custom 22 Semi Hollow a few months ago. I changed from the stock 9 Guage Strings pretty much straight away. I Use standard 10-46 Guage Strings, but found I had some slight tuning issues. So I Upgraded to a Tusq XL nut and locking tuners. This fixed my tuning Issues Perfectly. As part of the setup I adjusted my intonation (stoptail bridge) on the high and low E Strings. While I can get the Low E spot on, the high E Fretted at the 12th gets about 3 cents sharp of the harmonic before I seem to run out of grub screw. In Fact there is a gap of about 1mm visible between the bridge and the post head. I can even see the grub screw in the gap. I dare not go any further for risk of damaging the screw/bridge/post. I run a fairly low action, with only slight neck relief. So I find it difficult to see how I run out of adjustment room.

Has anyone else had this problem? Anyone have any suggestions on what the problem may be and how I may fix it?

Cheers

If your intonation is really that far off with 10-46 then it would have been way off with 9-42. I find it hard to believe it left the factory that far off. See if you can get the B and G strings to intonate and just forget about the E for now. It could be a bum string which I've seen before.

Aside from that getting within 3 cents is for most people well beyond what they can perceive.
There are a few things that can make your guitar play sharp. Neck relief, slot height, finger pressure, etc. even having your pickups too close can make your notes play sharp. Keep in mind too that when you pick the string that initial note will be sharp especially if you're heavy handed with a pick.

There is a whole voodoo to getting intonation "right" including how someone picks and how they squeeze and tug on the strings when they play. If you want your intonation to be perfect all of that has to come into consideration. Try multiple tuners too as some can be way off. Turn your tone control all the way down when you intonate to try to get rid of any extraneous buzzing or other weirdness that can make your tuner think the note is off.

I do like to get my guitars set up as perfectly as possible too though so you might end up just being better off getting an adjustable stoptail anyway. Schaller makes a comfortable one.

 

[seandesigner]

If your intonation is really that far off with 10-46 then it would have been way off with 9-42. I find it hard to believe it left the factory that far off. See if you can get the B and G strings to intonate and just forget about the E for now. It could be a bum string which I've seen before.

Cheers for your thoughts, that's a good insight. I'm annoyed i didn't check intonation with the original 9s. But it had crossed my mind that surely it would have been fine as they are known to be set up before leaving the warehouse.

As it stands all things like neck relief, slot height, pickup height, finger pressure, have all been considered. I'm using a strobe tuner app through an iRig which may not be the best, but it does the trick. I started to think it was a dead string also, but strangely enough It snapped at the Tuning peg (probably from all the tuning and detuning from this investigating) so i replaced it. After a thorough stretching, still the same problem.

I checked the intonation across all strings. Low E spot on, A, within a cent, D strangely out by a long way... about 7 cents. G about 2-3, and B & E about 3-4. The D being so far out has made me think about the Nut again. My new nut should arrive tomorrow, so i'll try then.

Just wondering is a Core PRS Nut a drop in without any adjustment needed and suitable for 10s? The Tusq nut will need some height adjustment again.

Failing all this a trip to my local Guitar tech. Although, The Schroeder bridge is looking tempting as it's the closest in appearance to the Core PRS one - Just wish it had flatter saddles - I hate the feeling of pointy saddles when palm muting.

 

[dogrocketp]

The Schroeder is fantastic for Palm muting. that`s a large part of why it is on there. I tried the other brands before I got my first Schroeder boat tail.

 

[grausch]

I believe the core nuts are filed for 10s, but may be mistaken. If you hear pinging at the nut when bending strings or tuning them, then you would need to enlarge the slots. Not sure if it will solve the intonation issue though, but I would be happy if it does. Keep us updated once you have installed the new nut.

 

[seandesigner]

A bit of an update... been busy over the past few days so haven’t had much time to try things.

I’d noticed that when adjusting I was no longer able to recreate the gap shown in the photo above. The treble grub screw would turn then feel like it was loose. I took the bridge apart to inspect and noticed that the adjustment grub screws were loose! Both treble and bass screws. The treble particularly bad, that it would turn so far then slip and wiggle out as though either the threads were stripped or ovalised. I thought this was strange as I’d always been careful to slacken the strings before adjusting. I’m now in a situation where I cant achieve the relatively close intonation numbers I could before.

In the background, i’ve Been emailing the store I bought it from. They were initially very unwilling to talk to me about it as they thought changing the Nut and Tuners invalidated the warranty. After a bit of back and forth they’ve agreed to inspect the guitar. I suppose the main concern I have now is that they’ll take one look at the bridge and say I damaged it (not believing I was careful)

I’ve now replaced the Tusq XL nut with a Core PRS one and set it to the correct height (plus the 10 gauge fit perfectly) I also ordered at the same time a PRS adjustable bridge (if i’d Have ordered either a Mann or Schroeder, the customs and import taxes would have brought them close to the PRS cost - which I could buy in the U.K.). So with my main concern being the bridge (I think the screw slipping may have caused the instability) It’s likely this new bridge may fix the problem.

I’ve not been able to confirm the position of the posts. Could one of you guys with a 25” scale length Stoptail do me a favour and measure the distance from your nut to both Post centres? Hopefully this could rule this out, and if so i’ll Just fit the New Adjustable bridge and be done with it.

Thanks again for all your help and comments.

 

[dogrocketp]

The position of the posts is not a factor with the adjustable bridge. You just move the saddles till you like the intonation. And I`d still have it professionally gone over.

 

[seandesigner]

The position of the posts is not a factor with the adjustable bridge. You just move the saddles till you like the intonation. And I`d still have it professionally gone over.

The position of the posts is a factor, adjustable bridge or not. If for example the post is out by 2mm, then that is 2mm less saddle adjustment in that particular direction.

Its highly unlikely this is the case with my guitar, but knowing how they are made, it is possible. I'd just like to check/compare before installing the new bridge, which as you say will likely solve the problem. (its just a lot of money that i don't want to be wasted if it isn't gonna solve the issue)