Satin vs Gloss Finishes, What's the Deal?

[Casi1]

I much prefer the look and feel of ‘less gloss’ on guitar body and necks. I have convinced myself that they sound better to me (confirmed, after I had a PRS guitar professionally refinished locally...). However, with regard to aging and wear, it just depends on which bad thing is more acceptable to you... I don’t like fingerprints but I like them better than scratches, BUT I will deal with the shiny spots and scratches to get my satiny finish/feel.

I just yesterday took the gloss off of one of my non-PRS guitars using DIY methods. There’s no more gloss on that maple top. Instant satin and I love it. I can’t bring myself to do that to my McCarty bodies though... I made the necks satin but that’s where I stopped. The McCarty guitars ‘might’ sound better to me if de-glossed but they would definitely look worse and that ain’t cool.

 

[CyFan4036]

I much prefer the look and feel of ‘less gloss’ on guitar body and necks. I have convinced myself that they sound better to me (confirmed, after I had a PRS guitar professionally refinished locally...). However, with regard to aging and wear, it just depends on which bad thing is more acceptable to you... I don’t like fingerprints but I like them better than scratches, BUT I will deal with the shiny spots and scratches to get my satiny finish/feel.

I just yesterday took the gloss off of one of my non-PRS guitars using DIY methods. There’s no more gloss on that maple top. Instant satin and I love it. I can’t bring myself to do that to my McCarty bodies though... I made the necks satin but that’s where I stopped. The McCarty guitars ‘might’ sound better to me if de-glossed but they would definitely look worse and that ain’t cool.

What method did you use? Scotchbrite pad?

 

[Casi1]

What method did you use? Scotchbrite pad?

I typically will use a 3M sandpaper sheet on my PRS necks. This time though, I used micro mesh on the maple top and it worked perfectly. Only took one little pad with light pressure for about 2 minutes and top was done.

 

[CyFan4036]

I typically will use a 3M sandpaper sheet on my PRS necks. This time though, I used micro mesh on the maple top and it worked perfectly. Only took one little pad with light pressure for about 2 minutes and top was done.

I would really like to see a pic if you get time...please...

 

[Casi1]

I would really like to see a pic if you get time...please...

Sure. Apparently Imgur is ‘temporarily over capacity’ right now so no luck but I can try again later today.

Otherwise you can send me your email address in a PM.

 

[CyFan4036]

Sure. Apparently Imgur is ‘temporarily over capacity’ right now so no luck but I can try again later today.

Otherwise you can send me your email address in a PM.

PM sent

 

[Casi1]

PM sent

Finally got Imgur to work (looks like no more mobile version after July, bummer)...

Ignore the extra knobby knobs in the first photo. Contrary to popular belief, girls like knobs too.

 

[CyFan4036]

Finally got Imgur to work (looks like no more mobile version after July, bummer)...

Ignore the extra knobby knobs in the first photo. Contrary to popular belief, girls like knobs too.

Wow! That turned out great! Nicely done!

 

[Casi1]

Wow! That turned out great! Nicely done!

Thanks!

Can’t beat it for $8 and 2 minutes worth of time.

 

[Acnestes]

I think it started out in the market simply as a cheaper option than gloss. You'd only see it on the, "Studio", models and the like. It caught on in some corners as such things always do. Making a virtue of necessity might be the case for some who either can't or don't care to lay out the extra bucks for gloss.

 

[Mozzi]

I think it started out in the market simply as a cheaper option than gloss. You'd only see it on the, "Studio", models and the like. It caught on in some corners as such things always do. Making a virtue of necessity might be the case for some who either can't or don't care to lay out the extra bucks for gloss.

I believe that it does cost 'less' to finish a body in Satin. I would assume it bypasses or at least requires a LOT less buffing for a start but I don't know too much about the differences from taking the natural wood guitar through all the 'finishing' processes before it moves in to fitting the hardware of the two different types - Satin and Gloss. I know there are numerous stages of applying stains, different layers sprayed on and sanded back etc before a 'gloss' even reaches the buffing phase and at some point, the serial numbers are written on as well and I think that's before any final clear coats are applied.

If Satin isn't buffed or at least buffed to such a high sheen, that alone can save man hours which makes it cheaper but I am not experienced in this area to know if other costs elsewhere go to making Satin finishes that a gloss guitar doesn't have which may balance out the costs a bit more so my 'belief' in it costing less, is not really based on experience...

 

[Acnestes]

If Satin isn't buffed or at least buffed to such a high sheen, that alone can save man hours which makes it cheaper but I am not experienced in this area to know if other costs elsewhere go to making Satin finishes that a gloss guitar doesn't have which may balance out the costs a bit more so my 'belief' in it costing less, is not really based on experience...

You've got it. Also, the drying time in between coats costs, since the guitar is taking up valuable real estate.
Note that you don't see any satin polyurethane finishes (except on some natural maple necks). No money to be saved there, and probably no demand either.

 

[elvis]

I've had a couple satin guitars. The concept at the time was that it would wear quickly and look like a relic. Plus I do dig the occasional matte finish, like on my motorcycle.

100% personal preference.

 

[Mozzi]

You've got it. Also, the drying time in between coats costs, since the guitar is taking up valuable real estate.
Note that you don't see any satin polyurethane finishes (except on some natural maple necks). No money to be saved there, and probably no demand either.

I don't know which has more layers and/or requires more 'drying' time in between coats to account for that 'valuable' real estate. I would think that PRS are not making 'so many' that the drying guitars are taking up space that holds up the manufacturing process until they are moved on. It only takes up real estate if it affects the production line. PRS can't 'dry' wood until the drying woods are ready to be moved out of the drying rooms but its not an issue until it affects the builders - having to wait for the wood before they can start gluing bodies up ready for CNC. Guitars that are drying between coats only affect the production if the guys 'Spraying' have to wait - either for the drying guitars to dry or to move on in the production - before they can spray any more guitars and the 'buffers' having to wait for that batch to dry.

The real estate those 'drying' guitars take up will be accounted for. Its like the presses that glue the maple tops on the body take up real estate but that's accounted for, just like the woods in the rooms drying etc. There are processes that take time before the 'next' step can take place. If people are waiting for these 'static' (drying, gluing etc) processes to either finish or move on, that's when it becomes an issue. If the person Spraying the guitars is having to stop doing their job because there is no room to hang guitars to dry or waiting for Guitars to spray, that's a problem. That affects the costs. Idle staff - because they are waiting for guitars to be ready for them to do their job or forced to stop because there is no room to move things forward is a problem. As long as there is enough dry wood to make a guitar, it doesn't matter if the wood drying is not ready to come out which means the new wood arriving can't get into the rooms to start drying yet. If a Satin finish can be moved on to the 'next' phase quicker, if it bypasses the buffing for example, its still going to take up 'real' estate until the person(s) who fits hardware has finished the guitar(s) that are now moved onto the person who does the set up.

There are guitars in various different stages of construction waiting for their 'turn' to be worked on and moved to the next phase. As long as they are not affecting the staff either by taking up the space so halting the production line until they can clear the space, or by not being ready (dried, glued etc) for the staff employed for the next phase. In a perfect system, the staff team always has something to work on - as soon as 1 guitar moves on to the next phase, its replaced by a guitar from the previous phase - its not holding up production so therefore its not taking up real estate - its where its 'meant' to be that is accounted for in its production. I hope that makes sense...

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Lacquer has differing levels of sheen, depending on the desired level.

Spraying is an art form in itself. However if you’re trying to achieve a finish straight off the gun that takes real skill.

I should imagine lower sheen (satin) finishes are cut back and buffed. It’s the sheen level that makes the satin finish.

 

[Acnestes]

There are guitars in various different stages of construction waiting for their 'turn' to be worked on and moved to the next phase. As long as they are not affecting the staff either by taking up the space so halting the production line until they can clear the space, or by not being ready (dried, glued etc) for the staff employed for the next phase. In a perfect system, the staff team always has something to work on - as soon as 1 guitar moves on to the next phase, its replaced by a guitar from the previous phase - its not holding up production so therefore its not taking up real estate - its where its 'meant' to be that is accounted for in its production. I hope that makes sense...

It makes sense but the fact remains that any space required for production adds to manufacturing costs just like time does. You need lots of physical space with controlled temps/humidity to keep those dozens or hundreds of guitars that are hanging around through multiple steps of spraying, drying and buffing. You can't just stack them up. That space has to be paid for even if indirectly through taxes, rent, insurance (solvent vapor saturated space, no less!), etc. The less time and space it takes to make any product, the lower the manufacturing costs will be. A satin finish consumes less spacetime in it's production regardless of how fine tuned ones production line.
In truth, I don't know precisely much that particular aspect of the process adds ton the cost, but I'm confident it's not insignificant.

 

[Acnestes]

Lacquer has differing levels of sheen, depending on the desired level.

Spraying is an art form in itself. However if you’re trying to achieve a finish straight off the gun that takes real skill.

I should imagine lower sheen (satin) finishes are cut back and buffed. It’s the sheen level that makes the satin finish.

With a lacquer finish it's the coats and buffing. With the satin finishes used on maple necks (polyurethane) I think they add a dulling agent, which is why the eventually get shiny - the dulling agent is softer than the urethane and gets buffed by your thumb eventually.
I actually used to work in a lab that made finishes in the days of my youth, so I'm not entirely pulling this out of thin air.

 

[Mozzi]

It makes sense but the fact remains that any space required for production adds to manufacturing costs just like time does. You need lots of physical space with controlled temps/humidity to keep those dozens or hundreds of guitars that are hanging around through multiple steps of spraying, drying and buffing. You can't just stack them up. That space has to be paid for even if indirectly through taxes, rent, insurance (solvent vapor saturated space, no less!), etc. The less time and space it takes to make any product, the lower the manufacturing costs will be. A satin finish consumes less spacetime in it's production regardless of how fine tuned ones production line.
In truth, I don't know precisely much that particular aspect of the process adds ton the cost, but I'm confident it's not insignificant.

That guitar is not incurring any 'additional' cost at all because that part of the process is included in EVERY guitar as running costs. That 'room' or wherever its drying would be on regardless. Its not as if the Guitar is in a drying room on its own and having 'special' one off treatment that is not part of the overall running costs. If satin finishes, for example, required additional one off treatment that was not part of the 'everyday' running costs, then you can consider those aspects. The 'cost' of building guitars, regardless of the 'finish' also includes the cost of running the factory inc rent, electricity bills etc, all the staff salaries - including any staff that have absolutely no involvement with the actual build, reps, salesmen, cleaners etc.

That 'satin' guitar is not taking up space or incurring additional running costs. Its 'space' throughout the 'entire' process is factored in - whether its the 'space' in the press when the Maple top was glued on to the body, when the neck is clamped in, when its on a bench having stain applied, when its waiting for the hardware to be fitted, waiting for set-up etc etc. Which ever 'part' of the build where its been 'static' because the wood isn't dry enough to begin building, when its waiting for its turn to be sprayed and when the spray coat is drying, its NO different regardless of the finish and any 'room' its drying in would be occupied by all the other guitars drying and that drying room would be on regardless of 'how long' it takes that 1 guitar to dry. If it dries 'quicker' its still incurring the same cost because its not affecting the day to day running cost. That drying room was still on whether it was in it or not. The only difference is whether it takes fewer days to go through the factory because whilst its in the factory, its still occurring the same running costs. It doesn't matter if its in a drying room or not, that drying room is on so every guitar in the factory is sharing the same running costs. Its only when something 'special' that incurs extra expenditure that really affect the cost of that build.

If it takes a week less to make a Satin finish guitar, then its not incurred the extra week of running the factory, paying all the staff to do their work. If it takes the same time as a gloss guitar because the satin finish takes longer to dry for example but misses out on the buffing stage - its still incurred exactly the same running cost - the factory and the staff were all working and all being paid. That drying room was still on regardless of whether it was sat in it (with all the other drying guitars) or waiting for the hardware to be fitted because the daily running costs are the same which is shared by all the other guitars in production.

 

[László]

All this is interesting, folks, but I like mine shiny.

Nonetheless, the nitro finishes on my PS guitars are a bit different kind of gloss than the finish on my Core guitars. They seem to reflect the light a little bit differently. I have zero problem with either one. Both are attractive.

Once again I prove to be wishy-washy on the details!

 

[veinbuster]

Mostly, I just like good guitars.
Satin of the moment

Gloss of the moment