Justme_223
New Member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2021
- Messages
- 17
Hello everyone! I am new to the PRS community. I recently purchased one of my dream guitars. It is a 1991 alder bodied PRS CE24 that I find absolutely beautiful. I can take more pictures if you guys want!
However, there is one major problem with it. After doing some comparisons with my 2011 Les Paul Traditional Faded (Long & McQuade exclusive), I stumbled upon a dead spot. I tried to compare the sustain at the 12th fret on the G-string, and unfortunately I noticed that the PRS just died off, while my Les Paul just absolutely destroyed that note (and has no dead spots that I could find). I honestly did not even know this was a problem in the guitar community.
After doing research, it seems that this is quite a common problem with older 24 fret PRS guitars to have a dead spot at the 12th fret on the G-string. It drives me nuts because even my older Ibanez RG570 (24 fret) with a much thinner Wizard 1 neck (so I assume much lighter) does not have this problem. I'm thinking that maybe it could have something to do with the PRS having a 25" scale compared to the Ibanez's 25.5", but lets leave that for another day.
Having an OCD type of attitude, I've been losing sleep over trying to figure out this problem. I've read about adding/removing mass from the headstock, adding mass to the neck in general (hence why PRS moved to a bigger heel), raising/lowering pickups, checking frets, etc. I have tried pretty much all of these methods except for removing mass from the headstock (I would have to find lighter tuners/buttons, and I don't want to drill any new holes. I may have to check out Mann's guitar vault to see what I can use for a permanent solution). However, there was one thing I tried that solved the problem instantly and I am hoping it works for those that are facing the same problem.
For those that are looking for instant gratification on my temporary fix, then here it is: Put a capo on top of the strings behind the nut. With the capo I'm using, it doesn't add enough pressure to throw off the tuning of any of the strings.
Now for those that actually want to know my methods and research into trying to solve this problem then please feel free to continue.
So the first thing I tried was of course adding mass to the neck. Considering that I hate any "visual" modifications (aka the Fender Fatfinger), I first tried to add mass to the neck underneath the pickup (see images below). I used 1/2 ounce (14 gram) wheel weights:
This may have made a slight difference. But not enough to really keep the modification. I then tried to add mass to the body as well:
This made absolutely no difference between having the weights on the neck vs. having weights on the neck AND body. I really didn't think it would make a difference since mass should be adjusted on the neck, but I thought I would try anyways since I already had the guitar opened up. I also tried to add weights on the tremolo block, and on the body in the tremolo cavity. This made absolutely no difference in tone (hence why I don't really believe the idea that a heavier guitar body results in more sustain....but that's an issue for another day).
The next method I tried was to add even more mass to the neck. Considering that one ounce of additional mass didn't make much of a difference, I had to move the weights to the headstock (unfortunately). There was only enough room for two of those wheel weights in the pickup cavity. I gradually added weights (a 1/2 ounce each time) to the headstock to see if it made a difference in tone (I added up to 8 ounces of additional mass to the headstock). I also made sure to switch around the weights in case there was a "magic spot" on the headstock. To tell the truth, I felt that this made the tone even worse. The dead spot (12th fret G-string) ended up turning into a nasty sounding wolf tone, and the dead spot actually moved up to the 15th fret.
I was starting to lose hope until I tried a desperation move just this morning. For some reason, I thought to put a capo on top of the strings behind the nut to see if it made a difference. This way, maybe adding some tension to the strings (similar to a string tree) as well as adding a slight amount of mass would make a difference. And low and behold, it got rid of the dead spot completely. I tried other frets close to the area to see if the dead spot moved, and I couldn't find it (to tell the truth, I'm not sure I want to search that hard for it considering my personality lol). Please see the long (and incredibly dry) video below. Remember, this is for scientific purposes and isn't really meant to be entertaining in any way lol:
Time Stamps:
0:00-0:30 Example of the (dead) G-note on the 12th fret of the G-string. Also comparisons to the G-note on the B-string and D-string.
0:30-1:20 The notes after the capo is added. Huge improvement.
1:30-2:00 Adding 1.5 ounces of wheel weights behind the headstock in the same area that the capo would be pinching on. Not much of an improvement.
2:00-2:45 Another example of using the capo method. Massive improvement over using the wheel weights.
2:45-3:00 Putting the capo at the tip of the headstock to see if it makes the same improvement. Does not make a difference and the dead spot is still present. This, along with adding the wheel weights proves that (in this particular situation) it's not just about adding mass to the headstock.
3:00-3:20 Putting a capo on the 12th fret. Similar results to adding the capo behind the nut. The G-string has a massive improvement. I'm thinking that this may prove that adding a slight amount of mass (the capo itself) as well as adding tension to ALL the strings helps to remedy the problem.
3:24-3:30 Another example of the sad dead spot with no modifications.
3:30-3:45 Showing the capo method once again.
Also, for additional information. Please see the pictures below for the weight of the capo, as well as the wheel weights I used (I used three of the wheel weights, since that came closest to simulating the weight of the capo):
Capo: 38.1 grams (1.34 ounces)
Wheel Weights: 41.6 grams (1.47 ounces)
Now after my findings, these are what my thoughts are on the situation:
1) I think if PRS increased the headstock angle on these older models just slightly, this could have helped to rid the neck of any dead spots. Considering the improvement of using the capo behind the nut sort of adds additional "break angle" to the strings, I think this could have worked.
2) A string tree similar to the ones used for Ibanez, and many Floyd Rose guitars may help remedy the situation. Unfortunately, I really don't want to test this theory since it would require me to drill holes into my headstock. If anyone is willing to do this though then please let us know!
3) I am not really sure if the mass of the capo actually makes a difference. All I know, is that using it helps to remedy the situation. Considering that there was minimal improvement to the dead spot when I tried to use the wheel weights, I'm thinking that the majority of the problem is resolved with the string break angle created by the capo, as opposed to the actual weight of it.
4) I found a video on Youtube recently:
The mans name is Juha, and he seems to be a very talented luthier looking at the guitars he builds. He encountered a dead spot on one of his guitars, and his solution for it was actually removing weight from the headstock through the use of lighter tuners. The difference in weight between the old tuners and new tuners is approximately 50-60 grams (around 2 ounces). If you guys don't want to sit through the whole video, then his solution starts at approximately 53:20. This would be a great (and permanent) solution with no notable visual modifications, but unfortunately I haven't tried it yet. If there is anyone out there that has maybe tried to install lighter tuners on their older 24 fret PRS, then please let us know if it has made a difference. I am tempted to order a new set of tuners from Mann's guitar vault, as well as lighter tuner buttons to see if this makes a difference. However, I would feel terrible to spend close to $200.00 for something that isn't a guaranteed fix.
Anyways, I hope this guide is helpful. I'm sorry for the long writeup, especially since it's my first thread. But I know there are people out there like me that become almost obsessive over figuring out problems like this. In the mean time, I'm just going to be playing with the capo on top of my strings regardless of how unsightly it is. Like I said, I am very tempted to try reducing the mass of my headstock through lighter tuners. But it will be a while until I decide to spend the money on this project.
Thanks!
Ace
However, there is one major problem with it. After doing some comparisons with my 2011 Les Paul Traditional Faded (Long & McQuade exclusive), I stumbled upon a dead spot. I tried to compare the sustain at the 12th fret on the G-string, and unfortunately I noticed that the PRS just died off, while my Les Paul just absolutely destroyed that note (and has no dead spots that I could find). I honestly did not even know this was a problem in the guitar community.
After doing research, it seems that this is quite a common problem with older 24 fret PRS guitars to have a dead spot at the 12th fret on the G-string. It drives me nuts because even my older Ibanez RG570 (24 fret) with a much thinner Wizard 1 neck (so I assume much lighter) does not have this problem. I'm thinking that maybe it could have something to do with the PRS having a 25" scale compared to the Ibanez's 25.5", but lets leave that for another day.
Having an OCD type of attitude, I've been losing sleep over trying to figure out this problem. I've read about adding/removing mass from the headstock, adding mass to the neck in general (hence why PRS moved to a bigger heel), raising/lowering pickups, checking frets, etc. I have tried pretty much all of these methods except for removing mass from the headstock (I would have to find lighter tuners/buttons, and I don't want to drill any new holes. I may have to check out Mann's guitar vault to see what I can use for a permanent solution). However, there was one thing I tried that solved the problem instantly and I am hoping it works for those that are facing the same problem.
For those that are looking for instant gratification on my temporary fix, then here it is: Put a capo on top of the strings behind the nut. With the capo I'm using, it doesn't add enough pressure to throw off the tuning of any of the strings.
Now for those that actually want to know my methods and research into trying to solve this problem then please feel free to continue.
So the first thing I tried was of course adding mass to the neck. Considering that I hate any "visual" modifications (aka the Fender Fatfinger), I first tried to add mass to the neck underneath the pickup (see images below). I used 1/2 ounce (14 gram) wheel weights:
This may have made a slight difference. But not enough to really keep the modification. I then tried to add mass to the body as well:
This made absolutely no difference between having the weights on the neck vs. having weights on the neck AND body. I really didn't think it would make a difference since mass should be adjusted on the neck, but I thought I would try anyways since I already had the guitar opened up. I also tried to add weights on the tremolo block, and on the body in the tremolo cavity. This made absolutely no difference in tone (hence why I don't really believe the idea that a heavier guitar body results in more sustain....but that's an issue for another day).
The next method I tried was to add even more mass to the neck. Considering that one ounce of additional mass didn't make much of a difference, I had to move the weights to the headstock (unfortunately). There was only enough room for two of those wheel weights in the pickup cavity. I gradually added weights (a 1/2 ounce each time) to the headstock to see if it made a difference in tone (I added up to 8 ounces of additional mass to the headstock). I also made sure to switch around the weights in case there was a "magic spot" on the headstock. To tell the truth, I felt that this made the tone even worse. The dead spot (12th fret G-string) ended up turning into a nasty sounding wolf tone, and the dead spot actually moved up to the 15th fret.
I was starting to lose hope until I tried a desperation move just this morning. For some reason, I thought to put a capo on top of the strings behind the nut to see if it made a difference. This way, maybe adding some tension to the strings (similar to a string tree) as well as adding a slight amount of mass would make a difference. And low and behold, it got rid of the dead spot completely. I tried other frets close to the area to see if the dead spot moved, and I couldn't find it (to tell the truth, I'm not sure I want to search that hard for it considering my personality lol). Please see the long (and incredibly dry) video below. Remember, this is for scientific purposes and isn't really meant to be entertaining in any way lol:
Time Stamps:
0:00-0:30 Example of the (dead) G-note on the 12th fret of the G-string. Also comparisons to the G-note on the B-string and D-string.
0:30-1:20 The notes after the capo is added. Huge improvement.
1:30-2:00 Adding 1.5 ounces of wheel weights behind the headstock in the same area that the capo would be pinching on. Not much of an improvement.
2:00-2:45 Another example of using the capo method. Massive improvement over using the wheel weights.
2:45-3:00 Putting the capo at the tip of the headstock to see if it makes the same improvement. Does not make a difference and the dead spot is still present. This, along with adding the wheel weights proves that (in this particular situation) it's not just about adding mass to the headstock.
3:00-3:20 Putting a capo on the 12th fret. Similar results to adding the capo behind the nut. The G-string has a massive improvement. I'm thinking that this may prove that adding a slight amount of mass (the capo itself) as well as adding tension to ALL the strings helps to remedy the problem.
3:24-3:30 Another example of the sad dead spot with no modifications.
3:30-3:45 Showing the capo method once again.
Also, for additional information. Please see the pictures below for the weight of the capo, as well as the wheel weights I used (I used three of the wheel weights, since that came closest to simulating the weight of the capo):
Capo: 38.1 grams (1.34 ounces)
Wheel Weights: 41.6 grams (1.47 ounces)
Now after my findings, these are what my thoughts are on the situation:
1) I think if PRS increased the headstock angle on these older models just slightly, this could have helped to rid the neck of any dead spots. Considering the improvement of using the capo behind the nut sort of adds additional "break angle" to the strings, I think this could have worked.
2) A string tree similar to the ones used for Ibanez, and many Floyd Rose guitars may help remedy the situation. Unfortunately, I really don't want to test this theory since it would require me to drill holes into my headstock. If anyone is willing to do this though then please let us know!
3) I am not really sure if the mass of the capo actually makes a difference. All I know, is that using it helps to remedy the situation. Considering that there was minimal improvement to the dead spot when I tried to use the wheel weights, I'm thinking that the majority of the problem is resolved with the string break angle created by the capo, as opposed to the actual weight of it.
4) I found a video on Youtube recently:
The mans name is Juha, and he seems to be a very talented luthier looking at the guitars he builds. He encountered a dead spot on one of his guitars, and his solution for it was actually removing weight from the headstock through the use of lighter tuners. The difference in weight between the old tuners and new tuners is approximately 50-60 grams (around 2 ounces). If you guys don't want to sit through the whole video, then his solution starts at approximately 53:20. This would be a great (and permanent) solution with no notable visual modifications, but unfortunately I haven't tried it yet. If there is anyone out there that has maybe tried to install lighter tuners on their older 24 fret PRS, then please let us know if it has made a difference. I am tempted to order a new set of tuners from Mann's guitar vault, as well as lighter tuner buttons to see if this makes a difference. However, I would feel terrible to spend close to $200.00 for something that isn't a guaranteed fix.
Anyways, I hope this guide is helpful. I'm sorry for the long writeup, especially since it's my first thread. But I know there are people out there like me that become almost obsessive over figuring out problems like this. In the mean time, I'm just going to be playing with the capo on top of my strings regardless of how unsightly it is. Like I said, I am very tempted to try reducing the mass of my headstock through lighter tuners. But it will be a while until I decide to spend the money on this project.
Thanks!
Ace
