Question on a few models

[guitarz6]

Hi everyone,

New to the forum & to PRS. I'm considering 3 models, "Paul's Guitar", the 408, and 513. I've seen some video demos on the three models on YouTube but these are obviously done by different people / equipment. Just wondering if anyone's had or played these models & can objectively explain the differences sonically. I'm mainly looking for vintage-type output on the humbuckers and a single-coil clean tone with a good amount of top-end spank.
Thanks very much!

 

[László]

Lots of folks here have, or have had, all three models. I can address the pickups on the Paul's Guitar and 408, but haven't had a 513.

The idea behind the 408 pickups (this includes Paul's Guitar that has the 408 neck pickup and a version of the 408 as the bridge pickup) is that the narrower ones sense a smaller part of the string, and thus "hear" more like what a single coil pickup hears. So the tone is a little clearer and brighter than most humbuckers when in humbucker mode, and sounds like a true single coil with no volume loss in single coil mode. The reason there's no volume loss is that split, a certain amount of winds (1500? someone correct me) stay on from the pickup that's nominally split off.

On the 408, the bridge pickup is wider, and the tone in humbucker mode is more traditional than it is on the Paul's guitar.

The split coil sounds sound a lot like the humbucking sounds - just clearer and brighter, a little less meaty, thus behaving like a true single coil version of the humbucker. Some people expect the sounds to be very different as with most split coil positions on a humbucker, so if you're after very different sounding splits, that's something to think about.

Personally, I love the 408 concept and the way it works. Still, the tone isn't necessarily what I'd call "vintage-type output on the humbuckers." It's clearer. It's significantly more open, and almost closer to a single coil in some ways. However, the humbucker positions have more thickness than the splits. I don't want this to sound like the 408s can't do traditional 'bucker things, they are simply more open sounding than a vintage humbucker with its phasey rolled-off top end.

I have vintage style humbucker PRSes for what they do.

For truly vintage type output on the humbuckers with great coil splits, I'd suggest also taking a look at the McCarty and the DGT.

As I said, I haven't had a 513 so can't address that.

 

[guitarz6]

That was a huge help...thank you. The clearer sound is mainly what I'm after - I mistakenly equated that with "vintage".

FWIW, the demos I've heard on the 513 don't seem to have that clarity but again, there's no way of knowing anything about their amps, settings, etc.

 

[CantankerousCarl]

Les has provided some excellent information as always. I'll add that, having both Paul's and 408s, the wider 408 bridge pickup is a little fatter, and works a little better for higher gain stuff. The narrower Paul's bridge pickup definitely gets you a little more focus, and sounds amazing with cleaner / lower gain stuff...it's a more single-coiley vibe overall. Love them.

I think my overall favorite PRS sound is the neck 408 in single-coil mode. So much soul in that sound!

 

[aristotle]

I have played all of the above, and own both a 513 and a 408 equipped signature limited.

The way that I experience it is that the 513 "cops" traditional tones (strat, tele, LP) and 408 equipped guitars are a bit more their own thing. If I had to pick, I'd personally pick my Signature Limiteds over the 513, but they really are quite different.

And there is a fair bit of variability in how people react to 408s. Because the 408s are rigged so that there isn't a volume drop when going split coil, the output of the 408 is higher than your typical single coil in a fender. As a result, if you're going more for a fender like tone on the 408, you need to drop back on the guitar volume (which is really more a result of how your amp will respond to it than anything else...)

In any case, the range of tones you can get out of a 513 is tremendous, and if you're looking for a single guitar as a gigging machine, you can't do any better than a 513 in my opinion.

 

[guitarz6]

I think I'm going to forego the 513. The idea of the 408 and Paul's Guitar having their own sound going for them is basically what I'm after - something I can't already do. The idea of this guitar purchase is to get something that doesn't "sound like" this or that. At least it's narrowed down to two at this point!!

 

[markintime]

I will second Les' comment on the additional 1500 turns in the 408 pickups. I have watched the video Paul does when he goes through the design of the Paul's and 408's.

 

[László]

I think I'm going to forego the 513. The idea of the 408 and Paul's Guitar having their own sound going for them is basically what I'm after - something I can't already do. The idea of this guitar purchase is to get something that doesn't "sound like" this or that. At least it's narrowed down to two at this point!!

Well, I absolutely loved my Sig Ltd with 408s, my 408, and now my 20th Anniversary of Private Stock guitar with the Paul's pickups (and a middle pickup added just to make things crazy-interesting).

These are among the most incredible sounding, uniquely cool guitars out there, IMHO. The clarity is really off the chart, and the tones you can get are gorgeous.

I also agree with Carl that the split coil neck pickup is among the very best tones I've ever gotten, though I also like the full humbucker mode neck pickup very much. And, um...the bridge...really, they're great instruments with a unique vibe.

 

[guitarz6]

The more I've listened to the 408 and Paul's Guitar demos the more I like them, partly for the clarity I'm after but also because the tones are great and they sound unique...makes no sense to buy something that sounds like something else!

 

[markintime]

The more I've listened to the 408 and Paul's Guitar demos the more I like them, partly for the clarity I'm after but also because the tones are great and they sound unique...makes no sense to buy something that sounds like something else!

Cannot argue with that^!

 

[Zodiac51]

Hi

Just my 2 cents, I've got a 408 equipped Sig limited & a DGT, both will do that is spades, both have an impressive array of "sweet spots". Of the 2, the DGT is just that little bit better at that vintage vibe.

Sorry I'm not narrowing your choices down

 

[Maertl513]

As far as I know by my colleagues a Paul´s Guitar is a littler hotter than a 408. These are 2 HB guitars with coilsplit function.
Of course - and this is obvious - I have experience with the 513. Apparently I played a Paul´s Guitar, but this wasn´t a core model, @LSchefman is adepted. Therefore a statement is nonsense.
A 513 gives you variety on one guitar. The use of volume or tone poti with all the switching positions gives you nice voicings.
I do not regret buying a 513.

 

[aristotle]

The more I've listened to the 408 and Paul's Guitar demos the more I like them, partly for the clarity I'm after but also because the tones are great and they sound unique...makes no sense to buy something that sounds like something else!

Cannot argue with that^!

Actually, I can argue with that For me personally, I tend to find myself reaching less and less for the 513, but that's because I have a bunch of other options. For somebody gigging in a cover band, the 513 is a dream guitar. All of the PRS feel and quality, and every classic tone in the book, combined in one fantastic guitar. Or for somebody recording who wants the encyclopedia of classic tones without buying several different guitars, the 513 is great. And don't forget, that in addition to these tones, a few of the 13 different pickup combinations are in fact unique.

I agree that there are plenty of applications where this isn't relevant, but I remember when the Signature Limited first came out that there were plenty of people complaining because they were looking for something with a more accurate Strat-like single coil tone. I can't recall anybody complaining that the 513 can't get you there.

Having said all of that, I don't disagree that from the context and spirit of what the OP has said, something with 408s might be his better choice.

 

[László]

I agree that there are plenty of applications where this isn't relevant, but I remember when the Signature Limited first came out that there were plenty of people complaining because they were looking for something with a more accurate Strat-like single coil tone. I can't recall anybody complaining that the 513 can't get you there.

I remember that, too.

But I remember also thinking, well, what do they expect? Everything about a Strat is different, except for the fact that it's an electric guitar. Different neck wood, different body woods, different scale length, no plastic pickguard mounted pickups, different hardware, and very different pickup concept down to the type and placement of the pickups!

It was beyond silly for people to expect a single coil guitar that is so different to sound like a Strat, and then turn around and complain that it isn't good when it doesn't!

It'd be like a Strat player complaining that his guitar couldn't do the kind of tones a Sig Ltd. gets. Kind of crazy, right?

My Sig Ltd was one of the coolest guitars I've ever owned.

"Then why'd you sell it, Les?"

"Because I sometimes make very, very bad decisions."

 

[Maertl513]

Your requirements are stated above. Snappy singlecoils, vintage humbuckers. More or less every of your suggestions will fullfil that to a certain extent.
Dismounting my 513´s pickups for unveiling covert secrets in the cavities I noticed that the bridge singlecoil set has been turned 180°, that said in singlecoil mode the active singlecoil is the inner one. One of my guitars wears a EMG-89 at bridge, splitting the coil the active one is the one near to the bridge.
I asked PRS about the deal with that. They replied that the configuration I noticed is the standard mounting of the bridge pair of singlecoils. But a few player would turn around the pair the get a more snappy sound.
I tried that out but got back to status ante quo, because I missed that Strat-like chime combining bridge with middle.
And don´t miss that the middle pickup sounds very nice for its own in clean and crunch, and apart from adjusting volume or tone, you have something inbetween singlecoils and humbuckers aswell by switch to Clear Humbucking mode. A P90 esque voicing.

And I repeat Les recommendation regarding the DGT.

 

[aristotle]

Yeah, I get that Les...but you really can do a pretty mean out of phase strat thing with a 513, even though it has most of the same differences with a strat that you mention.

 

[guitarz6]

Pulled the trigger on a 408 last night from Wildwood Guitars. Dark ruby red in color!!

 

[Maertl513]

Uhhh, @guitarz6, apparently a 408 is not a 513 , but welcome to the club of Wildwood Guitars customers.
Did Bruce sell the guitar or who was your point of contact?

 

[guitarz6]

It was an online purchase. Haven't heard back from them yet other than my order confirmation email.

 

[Maertl513]

Okay. I bought online aswell. Too many miles between Wildwood Guitars and my home base. They had the best pricing. And my 513 has been set up well. But as a side remark, the guitars has been assembled with a left hand vibrato arm. I called them and they sent me an additional replacement vibrato arm (and a signed 513 backplate by Paul Reed Smith).