Q's about Gen 3 tremolo setup

I have been thinking more about this. I would like to see how the string sits without the locking saddle in place.
It looks like the hole that holds the ball end of the string is too far back from the saddle top.
If the string isn't touching anywhere from the hole it comes through the trem block until it reaches the saddle top (between the height adjustment screws), I believe that when you tighten the locking screw, the string would deform in to a Z shape, between the hole to the trem block and the top of the saddle (can't describe it any better). Since it is under tention and the ball end isn't going to move from its position, the string forces the saddle to move closer to the hole, in order to form the Z shaped string under the locking screw. This is my best guess as what happens with this.
Maybe when you lock it before tuning (without tension) it will solve the issue and there is enough power to the locking screw to hold everything in place.
There should be a logical explanation for this... Santana is using this system for a few years now, we can't say it isn't road tested...
 
Jazzedout,

I think you're likely very close to what is happening.

In terms of how to deal with it, you may be right that it is good enough to not tension the string, tighten the lock screw down, then go. As I said before, seems to me that puts a lot of burden on that screw.

Also, some luthiers think that it is important to have down force from string tension. So the area between the ball end and the saddle "should" have tension on it to properly couple the saddle against the bridge plate. That does make some sense to me. And it this weren't the case, I would think there might be more movement to allow top-loading of strings.

It would be really cool to talk to Santana's guitar tech about this, and see if it has even been an issue for them, or how they deal with it. Then again, it would be cool on a number of levels.

Bottom line: I don't know.
 
Just found out that PRS himself is going to be in Portland in a couple of weeks for a meet and greet at a local music store. Would love to show him this issue and get his take on it, and maybe even make a recommendation or two about good solutions.

Naturally, I have rehearsal and a gig that Saturday and can't make it.

Well, if you're listening, Mr. Smith, you are welcome to join me that morning at our regular Saturday breakfast haunt for the best cinnamon rolls you'll ever find! Just let me know. ;-)
 
It really looks as if there are two issues here. One of how the screw and one of intonation travel based on the picture. Would tilting the bridge up a bit allow you to set the saddles back a bit on the routed grooves the saddle screws sit in? Also, is the purpose of the set screw to lock the string in place or just give a bit more pressure onto the saddle yet still allow some movement across the saddle?
 
Late to the party, but would a possible issue be where when inserting a new string, the string leaves the trem block and enters the bottom of the saddle...if the hole for the string in the bridge plate is not elongated, will that force the saddle back towards the feed hole when tightening the locking screw??
I didn't see this (at least explained like this elsewhere in the thread). Of course, may have missed it. Anyway, gorgeous guitar, and I'd imagine they will get it sorted out for you.
 
Jazzedout said:
I have been thinking more about this. I would like to see how the string sits without the locking saddle in place.
It looks like the hole that holds the ball end of the string is too far back from the saddle top.
If the string isn't touching anywhere from the hole it comes through the trem block until it reaches the saddle top (between the height adjustment screws), I believe that when you tighten the locking screw, the string would deform in to a Z shape, between the hole to the trem block and the top of the saddle (can't describe it any better). Since it is under tention and the ball end isn't going to move from its position, the string forces the saddle to move closer to the hole, in order to form the Z shaped string under the locking screw. This is my best guess as what happens with this.
Maybe when you lock it before tuning (without tension) it will solve the issue and there is enough power to the locking screw to hold everything in place.
There should be a logical explanation for this... Santana is using this system for a few years now, we can't say it isn't road tested...
Click to expand...


After having changed the strings and setting the intonation on my Gen III, I would agree this analysis ids pretty close to the mark. A small change in the design of the saddle will fix the problem. I believe.
 
I would really like to test a set of these saddles if PRS will make them available for retrofit. The more I think of this the more I believe that the solution when restringing is:
Pull the string through the bridge, hold it with just a little bit of tension with the one hand (I would hold the string closer to the fretboard to have an angle closer to the normal playing position of the string, if that makes sense) and tighten the locking saddle with the other. I believe that this would hold the ball end firmly in its place and it would not create so much pressure to pull the saddle back. After that put the string through the locking tuner as usual.
If someone with a GenIII trem could test it, it would be cool...
 
What about tightening the saddle locking screw until it *just* touches the string, string up as per norm and as a final step, tighten the locking screw up enough to hold the string in place whilst bending/trem use? Should be around 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, maybe less because that thread pitch looks pretty wide.

The PRS trem works pretty darn well already, so minimal torque on the screw would be required yeah?
 
justmund said:
What about tightening the saddle locking screw until it *just* touches the string, string up as per norm and as a final step, tighten the locking screw up enough to hold the string in place whilst bending/trem use? Should be around 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, maybe less because that thread pitch looks pretty wide.

The PRS trem works pretty darn well already, so minimal torque on the screw would be required yeah?
Click to expand...
the
I have essentially been doing a slight variation of this.
 
In my opinion, taken for all $.02 it may be worth in the Private Stock store, anything that changes the amount of down pressure on the saddle that the string exerts is likely not "as designed." I.e., I would be willing to bet the designers did not foresee this problem, and were counting on the same level of down pressure on the saddle as other PRS designs.

As pointed out above, the extreme case would be to clip the ball off behind the saddle, so there would be little if any down pressure. And that does change tone on a guitar. If you detune, lock the saddle, then tune up, all you are doing is a different degree of the same.

Probably the right way to do would be to machine a slot, not a hole, to give the string some room to move fore and aft as it comes out of the plate. Or to engineer the clamping mechanism so that it doesn't introduce a crimp in the string that increases the tension on it. Or to machine a groove into the head end of the intonation screw and replace the spring with an E-clip so the screw can turn but not move laterally. All of this would be more costly, and can't be retrofit to the current design. For example, I have not been able to find an E-clip small enough for the task.
 
ps_gom_october_2016_photo4.jpg


Check out the intonation screws in this pic... They suffer from the same problem that the OP is describing.... This is taken from the official PRS site October GOTM.

http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php...f_the_month_october_2016_lotus_knot_custom_24
 
Greiswig, I'm missing something, because I can't see a difference in the pictures. I probably don't know exactly what to look for.

I have the same bridge on my 20th PS that's like yours. I haven't done a string change yet (my hands are so dry that the strings seem to stay new for months at a time!).

But I don't want to mess it up when I do change strings in a few days. So maybe could I get a little more clear on the description of the problem?

Thanks!
 
LSchefman said:
Greiswig, I'm missing something, because I can't see a difference in the pictures. I probably don't know exactly what to look for.

I have the same bridge on my 20th PS that's like yours. I haven't done a string change yet (my hands are so dry that the strings seem to stay new for months at a time!).

But I don't want to mess it up when I do change strings in a few days. So maybe could I get a little more clear on the description of the problem?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Les, check the back of the tremolo base on the pics I posted. Normally the head of the intonation set screws should touch the outside of the tremolo base. In the pics above the screws have shifted away from the tremolo and their heads are not in contact with the trem.
Hope this makes sense.
 
LSchefman said:
Greiswig, I'm missing something, because I can't see a difference in the pictures. I probably don't know exactly what to look for.

I have the same bridge on my 20th PS that's like yours. I haven't done a string change yet (my hands are so dry that the strings seem to stay new for months at a time!).

But I don't want to mess it up when I do change strings in a few days. So maybe could I get a little more clear on the description of the problem?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

The issue will be self explanatory when you change the strings. I am likely going to get some regular saddles from my gen IIIs just cause I find the whole thing to be kind of a hassle even outside of this issue.
 
Hi all,

Newbie here with a Collection IX. I contacted PRS about stringing gen 3 equipped guitars, and their instructions are below.

What bothers me the the most is that when you tighten the saddle locking screw, the skinnier strings don’t get pinched by the head/point/tip of the screw. They get pushed to the side of the screw as you tighten, which doesn’t seem aesthetically or technically correct. Does anyone else have this problem?


—————-/

Guide to Changing Strings on a PRS Gen-3 Tremolo with Locking Saddles.


Steps:

1. Remove old strings by turning the tuner buttons.
2. After tension is relieved from string loosen the locking set screw on tuner shaft using a large slotted screwdriver or a quarter.
3. You can cut the strings using a good pair of wire cutters if desired.
4. Pull strings from tuner through holes.
5. Pull strings through the back of the tremolo. You can remove the tremolo back plate for easier access to the tremolo blocks string through holes.
6. After all strings are removed it is recommended to clean your fretboard and the top of the guitar underneath thestrings using your favorite guitar cleaner and fretboard cleaner.
7. Push the strings through the tremolo block from the back of the guitar in their appropriate hole pulling them through from the top with your opposite hand. Make sure the string goes through the saddle in the appropriate location.
8. Pull each string from the top until the ball end bottoms out inside the tremolo block. Then push the string ball end back through the block about 1/32” creating slack between the locking saddle and the ball end and block.
9. Tighten the locking set screw in the saddle. This will take up the slack left in the last step. If you do not leave slack on the ball end of the string the saddle may be forced back causing the intonation to go flat.
10. Repeat steps 8 and 9 for the remaining strings until all strings are locked into the saddles.
11. Once all saddles are locked pull each string through the tuner through holes leaving enough slack to have ½ to 1 full wrap around the tuner shaft when tuned to pitch.
12. Tune your guitar to your desired tuning while stretching your stings until the guitar stays in tune.
 
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