PRS Custom 22 tremolo issues (two zero piont problem)

[Zephro_C.]

Hi folks,

I hop it's okay, to open a new thread for this. If one describing the same problem already exists, I'd appreciate it, if you'd post a link to the specific thread.

So I own a PRS Custom 22 (should be a 1997/1998) with a phase 2 trem. One day I realized, that it won't stay in tune, when I pull up the trem. When I rocked it back and forth, it would return to tune slowly. I tryed everything from lubing up the nut, the saddles, the knive edges. All the usual things. I wrote back and forth with the prs support regarding the problem, but couldn't find a solution. It took me a while to build up the courage to take off the bridge to look at the knife edges. It seemed to me, that they were worn out, so I ordered a MannMade USA 2000NOS to replace my old Trem. Took it to a tech to install. Got the Nut replaced at the same time with a new PRS nut. Got it back today and the Problem persists. I think with the new trem I can even feel the trem resisting slightly, returning into the "second zero point". I haven't talked to the tech yet but I'm getting a little desperate. I'm starting to suspect it's normal an I just haven't noticed it up to this point, but I can't imagine, that Paul would accept such a flaw in his guitars. Does anyone have a similar problem oder maybe even a solution for it?

 

[shinksma]

May be a silly question, but how do you wrap your strings on the tuner posts? You should have minimal wrap, since the locking tuners do all that work. If you have more than a whole turn, you can be subject to that hysteresis you are experiencing.

If you have minimal wraps, I would look in the trem cavity - maybe the springs are not set up quite right, and are catching somewhere.

Also, I assume you are using normal thickness strings, and/or the new nut was cut to accommodate whatever gauge you use.

 

[Zephro_C.]

Hi there,

thanks for your reply. I would say, minimal wraps, or better no wraps, since I use the original "winged" tuners, wich came on the guitar (phase 1 locking tuners I think). As far as I know, you souldn't have any winds with these, to get them to work the way they are supposed to. So I don't think, the problem doesn't lie with the windings on the tuners here.
The Nut itself is the precut, selflubricating nut from PRS for the wide neck. I play 0.10 strings, which should be the current stock specification for more recent production models. So I guess, the precut replacement nuts should accomodate the strings just fine.

About the trem cavety. The springs seem fine. How do I spot, if a spring isn't set up right? Anything I should look out for?

How is it with your PRS Guitars? Do they return to pitch, if you pull back the trem arm?

 

[Rider1260]

Sorry for your issue.
No this is not normal and most likely a set up issue not a design flaw.
attach pictures of your set up when you can this will help.
I have said before , do NOT lube the nut on a stock PRS nut, I new nut can be a bit tight , HEAVY trem use will improve the tuning stability.
The more you use the trem the better it will get. ( IMHO )
Always tune UP to pitch , Be sure your 6 trem screw are level and the bridge is riding in the slots below the heads of the screws.
Bridge should be around 1/16" off the body and parallel to the body.
I would also give John a call if you continue to have issues he is a great guy.

Check out the video from John Mann below

 

[Zephro_C.]

Sorry for your issue.
No this is not normal and most likely a set up issue not a design flaw.
attach pictures of your set up when you can this will help.
I have said before , do NOT lube the nut on a stock PRS nut, I new nut can be a bit tight , HEAVY trem use will improve the tuning stability.
The more you use the trem the better it will get. ( IMHO )
Always tune UP to pitch , Be sure your 6 trem screw are level and the bridge is riding in the slots below the heads of the screws.
Bridge should be around 1/16" off the body and parallel to the body.
I would also give John a call if you continue to have issues he is a great guy.

Check out the video from John Mann below

Hi,

I'll gladly provide pictures If you tell me, what exactly you want me to show.
Up to this point I haven't lubricated the new nut. But I'll avoid doing it, if you say, you're not supposed to. As said, right now I can feel a slight resistence pushing the arm down, after I pulled it upwards before and it feels like the resistence is comming more from the trem, rather than from the nut. At least I'm pretty sure.
About Johns setup video: I know the video, and I tried to setup the bridge myself, as shown in the instructions. Yet I was not realy confident in my ability to do this correctly, so the slots are aligned in the right way. Therefor I gave it to a tec, which handles PRS guitars on a daily basis. When I told them about the video and the recommended setup process, they told me, that it is a good method, yet it is not always the right way to go, since it depends on the hight of the frets and the nut. Since they seemed quite confident in their ability to fix the problem, I had no doubt in entrsting them with my PRS.

I guess, I'll talk to the tec first and see, what they say. If necessary, I might give Johne a call even though I find it hard to get him on the phone at times, since he's a busy man.
Still I'm open to any further suggestions on how to solve the issue.

 

[dogrocketp]

Is the trem parallel to the body, and about 6 mm from the top? That’s part 1. If not, take it back to the installer, and tell him he has to take all the string tension off and disconnect the springs before he does any further adjusting. If he doesn’t do that, you may have two worn trems on your hands. I hope you didn’t take it to an inexperienced luthier who set it up like a Strat. That would be your clue to never allow him to work on your guitar again.
Part 2. I have a 2003 CE 24. The trem claw was mounted crookedly. I replaced everything including the tuners before I figured this out. And I almost sold the guitar. My luthier plugged the original holes, remounted the claw, and we’re happy now.

 

[aphantomvaper]

The trem height screws cannot be adjusted under spring or string tension or there can be larger issues.

 

[Zephro_C.]

Thanks for your Replys.

Is the trem parallel to the body, and about 6 mm from the top? That’s part 1. If not, take it back to the installer, and tell him he has to take all the string tension off and disconnect the springs before he does any further adjusting. If he doesn’t do that, you may have two worn trems on your hands. I hope you didn’t take it to an inexperienced luthier who set it up like a Strat. That would be your clue to never allow him to work on your guitar again.
Part 2. I have a 2003 CE 24. The trem claw was mounted crookedly. I replaced everything including the tuners before I figured this out. And I almost sold the guitar. My luthier plugged the original holes, remounted the claw, and we’re happy now.

As far as I can tell, yes, it is parallel to the body. About the 6 mm from the top. What exactly are we measuring here? Is it hte gap in between the Body and the trem and the sides oder is ist the gap in between the body and the trem base plate in the Front? Gap on the Sides is about 2 mm. Gap on the front is about 4 mm. Or are you referring to something else?

About the "setting it up lke a Strat" thing, I guess you mean like, screwing the trem down to the body until it pivots forward slightly and then releasing the screws for like a quarter turn? No, doesn't look like it.

About the claw and the crooked mounting. How was ist mounted that way? You mean like one screw screwed in further than the other one oder screws not going in straight into the body, oder screwholes not drilled in the right place?

The trem height screws cannot be adjusted under spring or string tension or there can be larger issues.

Thanks for the advice. I'm aware of that, and I think the tec is as well. But I know, why comments like these are often times some of the first ones, since thats a common mistake a lot of people make, ruining their trem in the process.

So for the pictures, I have attatched some here. Just let me know, if I can provide anything else that could help:

 

[kipkohl]

Maybe it's just the viewing angle, but the trem screws under the A and D strings look lower than the others. Don't know if it's enough to affect trem action though.

 

[dogrocketp]

In my case the trem claw screw holes were drilled too low and slightly off center. Yours look fine. Measure both the front of the base plate as well as the back. Is the front of the bridge the same distance as the back of the bridge from the guitar body? It could be the angle of the shot, but it looks like back might be slightly lower. It has to be dead parallel to the body. It the back is slightly too low, the strings will go sharp when you just leave it in the case overnight. Are the 6 trem screws EXACTLY the same height? Also, it doesn’t look like the saddles are adjusted for a 10” radius. They look too flat to my eyes. Ask the luthier to put a radius gauge on top of the bridge and measure. After all this is checked out, every time you pull the guitar out of the case, push the trem all the way down, hold it for a couple of seconds, then release. Do the same going up in pitch. This will allow the the pivot points to mate with each other. After a week or two, you won’t have to do that. There is a break in period on a new trem.

 

[Zephro_C.]

Okay, time for an update. Haven't touched the guitar again, yet, but I talked to the tec. He said, that he didn't notice anything strange, wen he set it up, but he doesn't have any idea how to solve my problem at the moment. So, I'm on my own again.
So I gave John Mann a call and he was able to answer some of my questions. First thing he said was, that the screw alignment doesn't need to be a tousandth of an inch correct, that the setup method they recommend in their video isn't one you have to follow religiously and that it was only a way to provide an easy method for anyone to setup their guitar correctly. He also said, that the hight the trem is set up sould not cause my problem, even if it is set up lower than spec. I also asked about a break in period and if that's a thing. He said it wasn't and regardless if it's a new trem or net, this shouldn't be my problem. He also provided me with this trouble shooting list (with the basic stuff), on which most of the points mentioned I already checked, to no success:

Troubleshooting tuning issues:
1.Is bridge installed correctly?a.Watch video -https://youtu.be/cHA_xu844Rsb.Saddle height should match fingerboard radius.c.Saddles should be parallel to the bridge plate. Both height set screws should be the same height, NOT angled!

2.Is nut installed correctly?
a.Strings should pass thru the nut in a straight line.
b.Strings should not bind, pinch or stick in the string slot.
c.Do you hear “pinging” when tuning up to pitch? That isa clear sign that the string in pinched in the string slot.
d.If guitar is equipped with a vibrato (tremolo) bridge, the nut should be made of a material that self-lubricates.

3.Are tuners installed correctly? a.Tuners should be mounted securely, with no looseness (free play or wiggle).b.Are strings relatively new? “Dead”strings tend not to hold their tuning.c.Always tune up to pitch (not down). The tuning gear must have pressure on the gears to hold tuning properly.d.Are the strings properly wound on the tuner peg? The string should self-lock on itself to eliminate any slippage.How to do it -http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/tuners.htmle.If guitar is equipped with a vibrato (tremolo) bridge,locking tuners are a must.

4.Are frets dressed and level? a.Excessive fret wear will cause a note to play out of tune.

5.Is truss rod properly adjusted?

6.Is guitar properly intonated?7.Are pickups set too close to the strings?
a.Pickups that are set too close to the strings will causethe guitar to go out of tune, due to the magnetic pull of the pickup magnets.

So I think I'll invest some money in a few sets of strings and try to go through the list step by step, to make sure I haven't missed anything. Of cours I'll take all of your suggestions into concideration and keep you updated, If I find any solution.

 

[Black Plaid]

Just as a sanity check, make sure there's nothing in the tremolo cavity that is catching on the block, make sure there aren't any moving parts rubbing on any wood.

 

[OGORMANIA]

Hi folks,

I hop it's okay, to open a new thread for this. If one describing the same problem already exists, I'd appreciate it, if you'd post a link to the specific thread.

So I own a PRS Custom 22 (should be a 1997/1998) with a phase 2 trem. One day I realized, that it won't stay in tune, when I pull up the trem. When I rocked it back and forth, it would return to tune slowly. I tryed everything from lubing up the nut, the saddles, the knive edges. All the usual things. I wrote back and forth with the prs support regarding the problem, but couldn't find a solution. It took me a while to build up the courage to take off the bridge to look at the knife edges. It seemed to me, that they were worn out, so I ordered a MannMade USA 2000NOS to replace my old Trem. Took it to a tech to install. Got the Nut replaced at the same time with a new PRS nut. Got it back today and the Problem persists. I think with the new trem I can even feel the trem resisting slightly, returning into the "second zero point". I haven't talked to the tech yet but I'm getting a little desperate. I'm starting to suspect it's normal an I just haven't noticed it up to this point, but I can't imagine, that Paul would accept such a flaw in his guitars. Does anyone have a similar problem oder maybe even a solution for it?

Did you ever solve your problem? I am having the EXACT same issue with my PRS SE 35th Anniversary. Pushing down seems to return to pitch, but pull up wants to stay sharp.

Wondering if you ever found a solution?

 

[Zephro_C.]

Hi Ogotmania,
I haven’t found a solution yet. Right now I’m in an email conversation with the German PRS service partner. I think, I‘ll send my guitar to them.
About your problem: As far as I know, the 35th anniversary models are less than a year old, so if I were you, I would contact the PRS customer service, since for you, solving the problem should be covered under warranty.

If I have something new to report, I‘ll post it here. I would appreciate it, if you did so, as well. Couldn’t seem to find much info on this matter on the net, other than „lube your nut“ or „how much windings are on your tuners“. Maybe together we can find a way to fix it.

 

[OGORMANIA]

Hi Ogotmania,
I haven’t found a solution yet. Right now I’m in an email conversation with the German PRS service partner. I think, I‘ll send my guitar to them.
About your problem: As far as I know, the 35th anniversary models are less than a year old, so if I were you, I would contact the PRS customer service, since for you, solving the problem should be covered under warranty.

If I have something new to report, I‘ll post it here. I would appreciate it, if you did so, as well. Couldn’t seem to find much info on this matter on the net, other than „lube your nut“ or „how much windings are on your tuners“. Maybe together we can find a way to fix it.

Thanks for the reply. I bought mine back in January 2020, back when the world was a normal place.

So it's outside of the 1 year "performance warranty" from Long & Mcquade my local dealer.

But since I'm the original owner there technically is a lifetime warranty.

I don't use trems very often and it's my fault for not checking at all.

The only reason I noticed is because I just installed a MannMade Brass block on my SE. And I took the arm out of the packaging for the very first time, lol.

The first thing I noticed was that the block was rubbing against the treble side of the cavity.

I was able to rectify this by slightly loosening the block mounting screws (3 screws) with the strings slacked and slightly realigning.

I also took 240 grit sandpaper and shoved it between the block and the wall and rocked the trem back and forth.

The trem no longer scrapes the sidewall, as far as I can tell.

I also put some graphite dust down the tighter side to ensure smooth movement.

It's properly and meticulously parallel to the strings/body.

Next thing I did was put light machine oil on the 6 pivot screws.

I also lubed the nut and saddles.

One thing to note. After all of this, I was having issues staying in tune when diving. Which originally was not the problem.

When diving I could feel something catching. Originally I thought it was the block on the wood. But then I put my ear to the nut and hit the trem and could hear a creak, that matched the catching feeling.

So I re-lubed the nut, using a combination of MusicNomads Tune It aka Synthetic Grease, and the powdered graphite.

This solved most of my prior grabbing feeling. But now my low E was going sharp every time I dove the trem. All other strings returned to pitch.

So I once again lubed the nut at low E, thoroughly. Finally, finally, finally the entire guitar would return to pitch after even an aggressive dive.

Seeing as I wasted most of my good friday chasing this issue, I decided to be satisfied with my progress.

I did not check the pull up because I did not want to continue to obsess about my instrument.

So as for right now I'm treating my guitar like shroedingers cat and not bothering checking if the pullup issue got solved.

But its worth noting I had to heavily lube the nut in order to get the trem to return to pitch with a dive.

I've never had any other tuning issues with that nut, bends always returned and the guitar would stay in tune for days. So nuts do seem to cause a lot of woes for trems.

If I ever find a solution I will post back. Sorry this was so long.

 

[OGORMANIA]

Hi Ogotmania,
I haven’t found a solution yet. Right now I’m in an email conversation with the German PRS service partner. I think, I‘ll send my guitar to them.
About your problem: As far as I know, the 35th anniversary models are less than a year old, so if I were you, I would contact the PRS customer service, since for you, solving the problem should be covered under warranty.

If I have something new to report, I‘ll post it here. I would appreciate it, if you did so, as well. Couldn’t seem to find much info on this matter on the net, other than „lube your nut“ or „how much windings are on your tuners“. Maybe together we can find a way to fix it.

Hey buddy,

I stumbled across this video while thinking about this issue again.

I also have a strat with a floating bridge and it does the same thing. I honestly think this is just the nature of trems.

It seems like you need to set up your trem to either return to tune on a dive or pull up. But you cannot have it both ways.

You simply have to cheat it by either ending your pull-ups with a slight dive to get the guitar back in tune or end a dive with a slight pull-up, depending on how you like to use your trem.

I think at the end of the day we may be asking for perfection from an instrument that is not perfect and have quirks. I think this is just something normal trem players just live with.

Hope this helps ease your mind.

 

[dogrocketp]

I go both up and down on my trems, and they all stay in tune on my PRS. I have several, and exactly none of them are a problem. If I could get the bloody guitar in my hands, I could fix it. I still have several SE’s , and the nut on every single one of them has had to be changed. The trems will stay in tune if set up properly. There is always a solution.

 

[Zephro_C.]

Hi folks! Sorry I kept you waiting, but it took me a while to get hold of someone, who could get to the bottom of the problem. And guess what, they got it fixed.

Thanks at this point to the people from Guitar Place Aschaffenburg. They confirmed my suspicion about the problem being body related. Means, in the end the problem was, that the milling for the trem block, especially the one through the maple cap, was in the wrong spot. To be exact, it was placed a bit to far down in the direction of the guitars bottom. That way the trem could not move freely. It's an easy fix, but still, one wouldn't expect a problem like that from a guitar in this price range.

The thing that puzzles me the most is, how on earth I failed to notice this issue for so long. Probably lacked quite a bit of experience in noticing such details.

Summary: If you ever get your hands on a PRS with this problem, keep your hands off. I don't think it's worth it. Maybe if you can get it cheap. Still, having to mill out the cap or trem cavity is something you shouldn't have to do with guitars as expansive as these. Leaves me a little bit disappointed with the brand and the guitar, but yeah, maybe I just had some bad luck.