PRS Causing More Indigestion than "GAS" ...

CrimesAgainstMusic

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OK, so I have already raised the question as to what's the deal with this new "S" version of the 58/15 pickup, which I happen to like , because it more mid-ranged focused that say its 85/15 S cousin (which I have learned to like by upgrading the steel SE bridge, with a megabuck brass one taming the brightness /thinness somewhat) ...

No one I guess has the new 58/15S LT yet, as they are waiting for the guitars to ship. But I'd like to know what the motivation was for it ...

But ... in the meantime, I'm lookin' at SE Custom 24-08 and discovering that ... TCI S... is a Pickup ? Not only that, it is an offshore made version (s) ???

I though TCI was a process. So I was thinking the "TCI" pickup is just a slightly modified 85/15 S .

I guess the problem for me is ... If I am spending upwards to $700 to $1000 dollars , on a "Communist Guitar" ... I need more clarity in what is happening with its pickups rather that feel the need for up to $450 dollars worth of upgrades (Mann Made Bridge + Pickups) factored in from jump street...

OTOH ...I'm rapidly snapping up low priced /high value guitars, priced so low that I don't care who made the pickup or its particulars, as long as it sounds good ! :) (From folks that actually put P90 pickups in guitars (made by heavens knows who) that that go a long way to reverse engineer the high priced spread...
 
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OK, well hopefully you are joking.
For Sure. But at the beginning I would only buy American made stuff. It is one safe way, of knowing you have a "quality" instrument. But I see as I learn more, that quality instruments are made all over the world. Seems as though Indonesia is the current "hot spot" for quality made off shore instruments.

But I really would like more info on what PRS is doing with these new pickups ... And the realization that the TCI... is now actually a pickup ? I know they came originally on Paul's guitar ... But what was it based on, or modified from ?

Video from years back showed the TCI S split well. Waay better than the 85/15S ... but was that the pickup, or differences in how it was placed in a circuit ? (different or additional caps and stuff)

If they can't tell me ... I won't bite ...
 
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But to say that one is making "compromises" infers that the high priced spread (USA stuff) has to sound better.

That simply displays a bias, that if it costs more, its gotta be better.

Or that the components that are intrinsically more expensive, have to make it sound better.
Would a platinum flute sound better that a Nickle plated one ?
Or A SIlver plated one ?

If you were given a truly blind test of say a Core McCarty 594, and a well made well engineered copy, could you tell the difference ? (or between the new SE line and Core ?)

Yes , they will sound different. But will one be clearly "good" , while the other really sounds "bad" ?

I have seen too many videos where the cheap knock off, sounds as good, or almost as good of the aristocratic high priced model, simply because once you have seen it done (and thoroughly dissected it) it is all to easy to reverse engineer a close competitor , for a fraction of the price.

Is that a good thing ? No because at some point, artists will figure it s not worth the risk to push the state of the art (while suffering all kinds of diminishing returns) only to have someone copy you for a pittance ...

Anyway, through my own experience, and checking bias at the door, I've come to learn that one does not have to buy Amurrican... to have a quality piece. Hey, the offshore stuff gets expensive eventually. Recall the 35mm camera market. Companies like Nikon, and Canon and Sony with electronics. (where cheap Sony is now made in Thailand) ... but its still Sony) Korean made SE ? LCC dictum means it moves to Indonesia

But not really cheap anymore ..
 
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I personally buy USA made products to support a country where my neighbor makes my stuff and has a well paid job! I have paid way more than I have had to hundreds of times or more in such efforts!! When it comes to the products from PRS, I am certain that there are many aspects of US made items that outshine their overseas brethren, in build quality, longevity and more, but I would need to do a 50 year study to be certain ;~)) For now, like Les, I will simply continue to purchase USA made products even when the returns may be diminishing. Kind of like going from Core to WL to PS! Is a PS worth 2 to 3 times as much as a core or twice as good as a WL? Well that is up to the buyer, but you do get more best I can tell, and I have examples from all 3 of those PRS lines.
 
I don’t like the assumption that a product made elsewhere is inferior. It might well be, but it’s the assumption that displeases me.

We all buy from where we want.

It’s wasn’t so many years ago that products made in Japan were seen as inferior. Their motor production is top class. There’s a reason why Honda make F1 engines.
 
In my mind, you’re both right.
It’s highly commendable to support USA made products, for many reasons; practical and political. It’s also true that some foreign companies are outshining our domestic companies regarding reliability and longevity. In this respect, one has to wonder if Japan (for example) isn’t still in a financial war with America that they are determined to win. Flood America with reliable long lasting vehicles at lower prices and watch the American auto makers struggle to stay alive. I concede that there are good and obvious reasons to buy Japanese vehicles (price and reliability) and good and obvious reasons to avoid buying Japanese vehicles (keep the money stateside, questionable labor policies in Japan,etc.). No easy one size fits all answer here, and we probably should avoid political debate. That said, disregard the above, and I apologize.
 
Like PRSh said, if they don't but them we won't make them.

I buy what I can afford. I do agree with "which would you rather have, some really great pizza or a lot of good pizza?". In my case I'll trade in all my good pizza for a really great pizza someday.

Is it too early for pizza?
 
I support fellow US craftsman (being one) , however, I am more interested in how well something is made than where . 98 % of my instruments are US made , I have a lovely Gretsch Country Gentleman that was made in Japan, flawless .. Remember, wherever they are from they are still sold through US dealers , and shipped by US truckers so .. no worries .. everyone gets a bit of the pie.
 
But to say that one is making "compromises" infers that the high priced spread (USA stuff) has to sound better.

That simply displays a bias, that if it costs more, its gotta be better.

Or that the components that are intrinsically more expensive, have to make it sound better.
Would a platinum flute sound better that a Nickle plated one ?
Or A SIlver plated one ?

If you were given a truly blind test of say a Core McCarty 594, and a well made well engineered copy, could you tell the difference ? (or between the new SE line and Core ?)

Yes , they will sound different. But will one be clearly "good" , while the other really sounds "bad" ?

I have seen too many videos where the cheap knock off, sounds as good, or almost as good of the aristocratic high priced model, simply because once you have seen it done (and thoroughly dissected it) it is all to easy to reverse engineer a close competitor , for a fraction of the price.

Is that a good thing ? No because at some point, artists will figure it s not worth the risk to push the state of the art (while suffering all kinds of diminishing returns) only to have someone copy you for a pittance ...

Anyway, through my own experience, and checking bias at the door, I've come to learn that one does not have to buy Amurrican... to have a quality piece. Hey, the offshore stuff gets expensive eventually. Recall the 35mm camera market. Companies like Nikon, and Canon and Sony with electronics. (where cheap Sony is now made in Thailand) ... but its still Sony) Korean made SE ? LCC dictum means it moves to Indonesia

But not really cheap anymore ..

Does having a 1 piece body over multiple pieces glued together make any 'real' difference? Does using a multi-piece scarf joint neck make a difference? Does the different top carve make a difference? does having a veneer on top of a maple cap or where a pick-up is wound make a difference? Does the 'overhead' costs, Labour, Rates (rent, electricity, insurance etc) make a 'difference'? You can argue its a 'compromise' to use multiple pieces in the neck/body - but it saves money and 'less' wasted material enabling 'more' guitars for the same quantity of wood. The 'different' carve is a 'compromise' so they don't have to spend as much time or care sanding, less 'hand' time required. The different location is a Compromise because it saves money on overheads etc etc

Yes there are 'compromises' to keep costs as 'low' as they can by designing a guitar with 'less' waste material, less 'hands on' time required, less overheads etc - and its not 'just' the hands on sanding time required before finishing, but even the buffing time is reduced too. You can argue that US made pups are using the 'best' quality materials in manufacture, but that doesn't mean you can't get the 'same' sound from 'cheaper' materials - you may need to have a different number of winds, different magnets etc to 'compensate' for different materials, but its still possible to make something sound 'similar'.

It's 'intelligent' compromises - compromises designed to drastically reduce 'costs' to make them more affordable whilst maintaining the 'core' essence of the Core version and still be a 'Professional' instrument - Reliable, Stable, Playable and sounds 'great'.

Considering a Core costs over 4x the price of an SE, an SE is not a 'quarter' of the guitar. Its very close to the Core for a small fraction of the cost so whilst there are 'compromises' to make the guitar more affordable to the consumer, they haven't compromised on the core essence.

If you can afford and/or 'justify' paying more for US made 'Core' instruments, you have to decide if those little differences are worth paying for to you. If not, it doesn't matter how much better a Core maybe, its not in your Price Range and an SE may be the 'best' option within their Budget as it gets that close to Core for less than 1/4th the price.

As for sound differences of materials, some may prefer Steel Block/saddles to Brass Block/saddles - just because 'expensive' guitars tend to use Brass more, doesn't mean that people 'prefer' it just because its 'more' expensive. Many musicians have used 'cheap' gear to record, gig, write etc with. Mark Holcomb uses his SE's despite having Cores/PS guitars and I'd never accuse him of 'compromising' on Reliability, Sound, Playability and Stability when it comes to deciding which instrument to use...

No-one would argue that an SE is compromising on aspects of a Core that we expect from PRS but its 'intelligent' compromises designed to significantly reduce the Cost per instrument to make whilst still retaining the 'core' essence of that instrument...
 
If you can afford and/or 'justify' paying more for US made 'Core' instruments, you have to decide if those little differences are worth paying for to you. If not, it doesn't matter how much better a Core maybe, its not in your Price Range and an SE may be the 'best' option within their Budget as it gets that close to Core for less than 1/4th the price.
Yep ! Its all about economic "utility". A basic Econ 101 concept. that people generally spend their $$$, in ways that gives them the most satisfaction.

It turns out ... Mr Les ... Is a Deetroit Home boy ! We went to the same schools (or were close) and both former WSU Law Students !

I ... even worked assembly line labor, and later as management in the Detroit automobile industry in the late '70 & 80's . When the companies were selling many units, while producing not so good product. Losses from foreign competition drove many changes ... (and job losses) because we were building poorly engineered crap ...

BUT ... MY INDIGESTION ... has more to do with SE pricing going so high (while other manufacturers also using Indonesia as a LCC) have generally lower prices for equivalent stuff ...

And this "messing" with the 58/15S with an LT version ???? , that "Dylan Knows Tone" says not to coil cut because it sounds lame (so how is that different from the 85/15S ?) That low output humbuckers, generally do not coil split well ??? ...

While the coil split in my S2 594 Thinline, with its "burly" old style 58/15S... coil split quite well ! :)

But most of all is this "TCI" conundrum in the SE 24-08 ... Is it a process , or a product ???

All the confusion, because of PRS' attitude, that their humbucker product (that they are late to the party producers of, considering Gibson invented them in 1955 ! ) are state secrets , new and different ... one cannot be sure if the "TCI" pickup is a special magic wind ... or the result of loading a humbucker into a circuit with capacitors and resistors that give it cool coil split properties, while generally kicking the 85/15S 's booty tone wise .

Since PRS won't come clean (or sell them at REASONABLE PRICES...$ 500 for a set of 58/15's ?????) That's Indigestion ...
 
Oh ... and Core bridges... are not USA John Mann manufactured anymore ???? They are works of manufacturing art themselves , well worth the cash. I'm gonna ask John permission to put one in a Harley Benton CST !!! (where the bridge will cost more than the guitar)

What bridge is in your Core ? PS/ WL ?

So what is driving the constant price increases , in light of cost cutting actions like what I'm gonna call "BridgeGate" ! :) ...

Indigestion ...
 
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Oh ... and Core bridges... are not USA John Mann manufactured anymore ???? They are works of manufacturing art themselves , well worth the cash. I'm gonna ask John permission to put one in a Harley Benton CST !!! (where the bridge will cost more than the guitar)

What bridge is in you Core ? PS/ WL ?

So what is driving the constant price increases , in light of cost cutting actions like what I'm gonna call "BridgeGate ! :) ...

Indigestion ...
Welcome to 1994.
 
Yep ! Its all about economic "utility". A basic Econ 101 concept. that people generally spend their $$$, in ways that gives them the most satisfaction.

It turns out ... Mr Les ... Is a Deetroit Home boy ! We went to the same schools (or were close) and both former WSU Law Students !

I ... even worked assembly line labor, and later as management in the Detroit automobile industry in the late '70 & 80's . When the companies were selling many units, while producing not so good product. Losses from foreign competition drove many changes ... (and job losses) because we were building poorly engineered crap ...

BUT ... MY INDIGESTION ... has more to do with SE pricing going so high (while other manufacturers also using Indonesia as a LCC) have generally lower prices for equivalent stuff ...

And this "messing" with the 58/15S with an LT version ???? , that "Dylan Knows Tone" says not to coil cut because it sounds lame (so how is that different from the 85/15S ?) That low output humbuckers, generally do not coil split well ??? ...

While the coil split in my S2 594 Thinline, with its "burly" old style 58/15S... coil split quite well ! :)

But most of all is this "TCI" conundrum in the SE 24-08 ... Is it a process , or a product ???

All the confusion, because of PRS' attitude, that their humbucker product (that they are late to the party producers of, considering Gibson invented them in 1955 ! ) are state secrets , new and different ... one cannot be sure if the "TCI" pickup is a special magic wind ... or the result of loading a humbucker into a circuit with capacitors and resistors that give it cool coil split properties, while generally kicking the 85/15S 's booty tone wise .

Since PRS won't come clean (or sell them at REASONABLE PRICES...$ 500 for a set of 58/15's ?????) That's Indigestion ...

A lot of 'cheaper' indonesian made guitars are not using bespoke Pups, bridges etc but 'generic' indonesian made parts they can use on Schecter, on Chapman on Cortek etc but only PRS have the 58/15 'S' or 85/15 'S' pups, designed by PRS specifically for PRS and used in US models too - same as the Gen 3 tremolo which is regarded quite highly. You may get a Wilkinson trem or generic indonesian trem on those 'cheaper' guitars with some 'generic' humbucker that may sound OK, but then look at Schecters pricing on their 'Indonesian' guitars and PRS SE's are a bargain...

I don't care what 'Dylan' says, that's just 1 person's opinion who maybe can't get his head around the fact that SC's in a '594' SE don't sound like a tele/strat SC so therefore must be 'awful' and in comparison to a 'full' humbucker dry sound, they do sound thin, anaemic - but then in a Mix, with certain Pedals/FX, the Split coils sound much bigger, cut through much better etc because the 'thinner' sound is not muddying up as much, not competing with Bass/Rhythm frequencies etc. That's the problem, you never hear the difference of Split coils in a 'Mix' compared to the 'Full' HB, its always a 'dry' sound and NO context. Just because it doesn't sound like a completely different guitar (strat/tele), different scale length, different Pup position etc, its 'bad' because a Single Coil must sound like a Strat/Tele.

As for the TCI process and those Pup names, that all came about during the development of the JM635 pups, how to make those 'consistent and sound the same every time, as well as work in ALL 3 positions of the SS. During that, they 'developed' their understanding of the Process to make pickups which as you know has been named the TCI process, and the 'first' guitar they updated was the 'Paul's' guitar and the 408 neck Pups it had. These became the 'TCI' pups named after the TCI process and why you have a TCI 'S' pup as that was originally designed for the Pauls SE model but then were used in the Anniversary 24-08 and Santana SC gold top (without splits) as Carlos liked the Sound. I don't think PRS have 'misled'. The 85/15's in a Cu24 today have been through the TCI process (as have the TCI pick-ups in a Pauls guitar), but are still 85/15's and the 'Indonesian equivalent for SE/S2's is the 85/15 'S', just like the indonesian equivalent of Pauls guitar pups are the TCI 's' pups.

PRS pups don't seem over-priced compared to other 'boutique' Pups that you expect to use the finest quality materials in manufacturing compared to some 'cheaper' overseas made equivalent pups. At least PRS design their own and 'compensate' for differences in materials with more/less winds, different magnets etc to try and sound as 'close' to their own as they can get - its another of those compromises if you will. The TCI pups are much more bespoke on a Core PRS, much more 'generic' on an SE so you can't directly swap the TCI 'S' for TCI's as they are a different shape - but an SE doesn't 'sound' that far off from the core. So the 'compromise' of making them a more generic shape and compensating for different quality parts by differing the winds, magnets etc to sound similar enough. Look at the JM635's vs 'S' version two distinctly different designs but you can't argue about the tone despite those differences - that's PRS taking the time, all the research and development costs to make their own 'bespoke' hardware and not using 'generic' indonesian parts which would no doubt be cheaper, but not keep the fundamental essence of that instrument in tact...

If you don't like the price of 58/15's from PRS, maybe find some other 'brand' that offers a 'similar' style HB. If they are not 'good enough' then you know the PRS pups are 'worth' the extra cost otherwise you've saved yourself money because the others are 'good enough' for you. Why are Bare Knuckles so expensive compared to some indonesian made generic Pups? No different from PRS in that regard...
 
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