PRS Amp With Cleanest Tone.

sorry to have hijacked this thread.
my PRS amp experience:
* I endorse the C, Dallas, and the Archon 100 for cleans.
* the Archon 25 is a solid clean but not as good as the 100.
* I didn't like the cleans on the H. did like the dirt though - think bogner shiva.
* the original Sewell was not a clean amp, imho. i think i sold it after i got the Archon 100. still kick myself for this too. doh!
* the HX/DA is not a clean amp as you may have previously surmised
* MT15 - surprisingly good cleans
* Sweet 16 - very clean, yet too clean and sparkly for me. the attack was intense and i'm not a good enough player to handle it

hope this helps!
 
I agree with Les about the HX/DA and the DG30. Those amps are really something special. The DG30 has a reverb tank which sounds really nice. I like to use the DG30 as a clean pedal platform.
 
watelessness said:
Les, does that make it clean amp, or just a grizzly beast of an amp with very little being put into it? ;)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's the right question. Why would how you categorize it matter if it does both things ? If you turn the gain down on the amp or the guitar, you get beautiful, sparkling clean tones.

The original Plexis, which the HXDA faithfully copied, were never beasts the way modern high gain amps are. What made them popular is that they're amps that didn't have a lot of clean headroom, and the beauty of them is that you can manipulate the gain incredibly easily with the guitar volume, the amp volume, pick attack, etc.

Hendrix recorded beautiful clean parts with a Plexi. Eddie Kramer, his recording engineer has said he's unsure of whether Hendrix used a Marshall Plexi or a Fender Twin on "The Wind Cries Mary," However, listening to the track, I think it sounds more Plexi than Twin (though it's hard to know for sure, what with studio EQ, compression, etc., on the track). Many of the other clean tracks from the early records sound more Plexi to me as well, and the early tracks were recorded in England.

Unfortunately, I rarely record anything perfectly clean, so I don't currently have any recorded examples of the HXDA's pure clean tones. However, there's a rhythm guitar track on this thing I wrote/recorded and linked below that's "clean with edge of grit" and another track that's got more grit.

The opening strums in the first 4 bars are the "clean with edge of grit" with the guitar volume set around 5. I could have made them cleaner and chose not to, but you can hear that sparkle and the clean tone that's the root of the sound.

The second track I bring in shortly thereafter is the amp set up the exact same way, no changes at all, I simply turned the guitar volume up to around 7-8. If you listen to the opening chords, I think you can hear the basic clean/sparkly business, even with the dollop of grit sauce on top.

I can of course get the amp to sound a LOT cleaner than this recording, but it's what I've got at the moment.

Forgive the fact that I also have a little chorus on the tone. I did the track to show off the pedal.

https://soundcloud.com/lschefman/pedaland-4

The wonderful thing about some single channel amps, and this is certainly the case with HXDA and DG30, is that there are infinite shades of coloration and grit, from clean to scream, that can be controlled simply with the guitar's volume control, or a volume pedal.

I do love the clean tones on the HXDA.
 
LSchefman said:
I'm not sure that's the right question. Why would how you categorize it matter if it does both things ? If you turn the gain down on the amp or the guitar, you get beautiful, sparkling clean tones. <snip>
Click to expand...
Counselor, your argument is flawed.
Firstly, turning down the guitar does not change the amp - it only changes the signal level going to the amp. Therefor you cannot use the guitar input to characterize the amp as a whole.
Secondly, we must have different versions of the HX/DA because when i turn down the HX/DA 30 preamps to "slightly above nothing" there is barely anything audible without cranking the master, and even then, it's not loud enough to gig with as a "clean" amp. And if i turn up the preamps even slightly then the amp starts to breakup. Although one can fooster with it to make clean should, this doesn't make the HX/DA a clean amp.
:D
 
watelessness said:
Counselor, your argument is flawed.
Firstly, turning down the guitar does not change the amp - it only changes the signal level going to the amp. Therefor you cannot use the guitar input to characterize the amp as a whole.
Secondly, we must have different versions of the HX/DA because when i turn down the HX/DA 30 preamps to "slightly above nothing" there is barely anything audible without cranking the master, and even then, it's not loud enough to gig with as a "clean" amp. And if i turn up the preamps even slightly then the amp starts to breakup. Although one can fooster with it to make clean should, this doesn't make the HX/DA a clean amp.
:D
Click to expand...

Respectfully, it's your assumptions that may be flawed, and the first of them is in regard to what I claimed in the first place.

1. Quoting my earlier post, here's what I said that prompted your comment:

"If you turn down the guitar, it cleans up like a champion and sounds fantastic. Don't be confused. This can actually be done, just the way Hendrix did it."

I'm sure you'd agree that I make no claim at all that the HXDA is a 'clean amp'. You don't find the term, 'clean amp' in my post.

Truth is, I don't recognize the distinction between a 'clean amp' and a 'dirty amp'. The real distinction is probably between a high-headroom input stage, and a low-headroom stage. But either can be perfectly clean depending on what it sees at the input attenuator.

This is simple gain staging. Most amps can be played clean, just lower the input gain or lower the guitar output gain. In fact, I used to set my Two-Rock on the overdrive channel, and just lower the volume to get clean tones. I often do this with my Mesa Lone Star and Fillmore amps, too, as well as the DG30. Controlling the amp with the guitar's volume control is a perfectly legit way to get clean tones, and lots of players do it.

I've said I love the HXDA's clean tones, and that's the absolute truth. Does it need to have the title, 'clean amp', in order to be good at clean tones? No, it does not.

I can show you how to get loud, beautiful clean tones from your HXDA if you like. Just swing by after COVID is done.

2. The fact that an amp's distortion level depends on the signal level going into it makes it no different from MANY other audio devices, including mic preamps, compressors, EQs, and so on. Every single piece of audio gear is different. 'Gain' simply means 'volume' in the world of audio. Tube amps break up as a result of how much gain the tubes see coming into whatever the previous gain stage is. The 'previous gain stage' can include the guitar, of course.

This is also true of solid state devices. I can get a Neve 1073 mic preamp to break up way sooner than the later Rupert Neve-designed Focusrite ISA 110 mic preamp, but that does not make it a "dirty mic preamp" nor does it make the ISA 110 a "clean mic preamp." It means that one will go into distortion sooner than the other if you drive it with enough input volume. It means you can dirty up the signal, or get a pristine signal.

I can get an Altec compressor to break up with a little extra gain, or have it be very clean if I lower the input volume. I could go on, but you get the point.

3. Gain staging is always going to be key with respect to distortion on the gear you're using. Headroom is designed into a variety of guitar amps and other devices.

Please, don't make me do yet another recorded demo merely to prove that I can get pure, gorgeous clean tones from my HXDA. I just don't have the time now. You know me well enough to have some degree of confidence that I can back up what I'm saying here with musical examples.
 
watelessness said:
dude. let it go. we'll never change our positions.
Click to expand...
But, this did just get more interesting... you are the first person I've heard say that the HX/DA didn't clean up extremely well with guitar volume control. And that with the preamps up even slightly it's not clean. So, despite the humorous discourse, perhaps the debate is because your HX/DA really is different than others.
 
I think Watelessness may have one that has more gain than others...
 
I realize that you all thought I was crazy to suggest that a Plexi style amp like the HXDA makes a great clean amp.

Therefore, you might be interested in...and even surprised at...


I'd suggest watching the whole thing.

So. Am I crazy? Of course! But I'm right about getting great clean tones from a Plexi style amp. You just have to know what you're doing.

"Les, this is a rhetorical question for you, probably, but what do you think is the greatest amp of all time?"

"The HXDA is certainly my favorite among amps of the last 45-50 years. But if you can find an original 50 Watt Plexi in perfect working condition, you're equally in business."
 
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So @watelessness 's experience with his HXDA not sounding clean at useful volumes got me curious, so I took a "smoke break" from my home office, and plugged my P24 straight into my HXDA. Using the mag pups, selecting just bridge at first, then both, I could get useful clean tones at good volumes, even with moderate strums (i.e. not playing feather-like). Really hard strums got a bit dirty.

Admittedly this is with the Master cranked or at least at 3 o'clock or above, but seemed loud enough for most gigs.

Guitar volume at 6. Has 57/08s in it.

Gains at 9 o'clock. Everything else except master at 1 o'clock. Switches DA/HX/HX (left to right). (btw, that's my new favorite combo, really liked the tone I got out of that after trying other combos).

Turn up the guitar to full volume, I get good distorted tones, and start cranking the amp gains and get even more dirt.

Sure, those cleans weren't as loud as the dirty tones, but they were plenty loud enough.

I dunno, maybe my expectation of "clean" and "loud enough" simply don't match W's?
 
I decided to get my HXDA and DG30 a little pal. I recently ordered an Echo-Fix tape delay, which is a clone of the old mid- '70s Roland RE201 Space Echo, only built to avoid some of the parts issues with the old ones. I have no idea when it'll get here, it's backordered. It'll sound great with those amps, as well as with my synths.

So yeah, more vintage tone stuff to feed my amps with. Echo-Fix is a small Australian company that started out supplying parts and service for RE-201s and Echoplexes. The demos of the thing sound terrific, and very authentic to the original design, but they thoughtfully added a high impedance input for guitars and guitar gear that the originals lacked.

In addition to real tape, they have a real analog spring reverb, like the originals, but also have a digital reverb and chorus on board that can be switched in, if so desired, or switched out of the circuit completely.
 
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