Prs 509 question

[Omri]

hi there!

Does anybody knows how the 509 pickups differ from the 513 ? (output etc..)
Are they coil tap or split?
why prs went for this kind of design? I.e large pickups is there any idea behind it?
And why this particular neck joint as identical to the 513 and not the usual like the cu22/24?
Thank you very much!

 

[veinbuster]

Someone will know.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Omri]

Thank you!

 

[Dancing Frog]

hi there!

Does anybody knows how the 509 pickups differ from the 513 ? (output etc..)
Are they coil tap or split?
why prs went for this kind of design? I.e large pickups is there any idea behind it?
And why this particular neck joint as identical to the 513 and not the usual like the cu22/24?
Thank you very much!

The pick ups are clearer and voiced differently in the 509. The sound is more vintage than a 513 in that the neck is closer to a strat and the bridge is closer to a tele in tone. Measuring DC resistance at the jack on the 509, the singlecoils are in the neighborhood of 5.75-5.8 ohm range where the humbucker modes are in the 7.99-8.25 ohm range. That actually turns out to be more balanced than the 513 which is 5.25 to 7 Ohms in singlecoil mode and 6.75 to 8.6 Ohms in clear humbucking.

Coil tapped or split? It's neither from what I can tell. It has been mentioned in passing in literature and at the demos that it's a 513/408 hybrid, but there has been some mixed messages and confusion indicating that it's a split as well. This is what I know. After inspecting the electronics cavity, I can tell you that it's wired like a 408 down to the number of leads coming off the singlecoil pairs. The 408 uses coil stealing in that part of coil of one of the singlecoils is added to the other in singlecoil mode; and when you plug in, it has a lower level of noise in singlecoil mode and the lack of volume drop between humbuckers and singlecoil modes which is the hallmark of the 408. The 509 behaves exactly like my 408's in that regard. Also, in the 513, the DC resistance in the modern humbucking modes are almost double the singlecoils which pretty much confirms the 509 is not a split. So, I think that all points towards the hybrid.

As far as why PRS went to this design, I don't know. The Modern Eagle and the 513 appeared at the same time that PRS was enjoined from making the single cut. I'd like think that Modern Eagle was ultimate expression of the McCarty design, and the 513 was an experiment in innovation in the spirit of the Sorcerer's Apprentice, an ancestor of the Cu24. Or, you could say, one was more Gibson, and the other was more Fender. Whatever is the reason, while the 509 appears to share many of the features of the 513, it is a different beast.

Finally, down to the neck joint. The reason the neck joint is same as the 513 is the depth of the pick up cavity required to accommodate the pick ups. The Cu22 has a tenon that goes under the neck pick up that the 513 couldn't accommodate. That's why the 513 has the lip, because it has no tenon eventhough its body is deeper than a Cu22. According to PRSh, it gives the 513 and 509 neck joint the same stiffness as a single cut.

 

[Omri]

The pick ups are clearer and voiced differently in the 509. The sound is more vintage than a 513 in that the neck is closer to a strat and the bridge is closer to a tele in tone. Measuring DC resistance at the jack on the 509, the singlecoils are in the neighborhood of 5.75-5.8 ohm range where the humbucker modes are in the 7.99-8.25 ohm range. That actually turns out to be more balanced than the 513 which is 5.25 to 7 Ohms in singlecoil mode and 6.75 to 8.6 Ohms in clear humbucking.

Coil tapped or split? It's neither from what I can tell. It has been mentioned in passing in literature and at the demos that it's a 513/408 hybrid, but there has been some mixed messages and confusion indicating that it's a split as well. This is what I know. After inspecting the electronics cavity, I can tell you that it's wired like a 408 down to the number of leads coming off the singlecoil pairs. The 408 uses coil stealing in that part of coil of one of the singlecoils is added to the other in singlecoil mode; and when you plug in, it has a lower level of noise in singlecoil mode and the lack of volume drop between humbuckers and singlecoil modes which is the hallmark of the 408. The 509 behaves exactly like my 408's in that regard. Also, in the 513, the DC resistance in the modern humbucking modes are almost double the singlecoils which pretty much confirms the 509 is not a split. So, I think that all points towards the hybrid.

As far as why PRS went to this design, I don't know. The Modern Eagle and the 513 appeared at the same time that PRS was enjoined from making the single cut. I'd like think that Modern Eagle was ultimate expression of the McCarty design, and the 513 was an experiment in innovation in the spirit of the Sorcerer's Apprentice, an ancestor of the Cu24. Or, you could say, one was more Gibson, and the other was more Fender. Whatever is the reason, while the 509 appears to share many of the features of the 513, it is a different beast.

Finally, down to the neck joint. The reason the neck joint is same as the 513 is the depth of the pick up cavity required to accommodate the pick ups. The Cu22 has a tenon that goes under the neck pick up that the 513 couldn't accommodate. That's why the 513 has the lip, because it has no tenon eventhough its body is deeper than a Cu22. According to PRSh, it gives the 513 and 509 neck joint the same stiffness as a single cut.

This is just epic!

Man(I guess) you are just brilliant!
Thanks for the info you are clearly very knowledgeable...

It sounds like you have/had a509...
Basically, I'm looking for a versatile guitar that can do styles from jazz to screaming leads and was looking at the 509 as I like the switching system (like having the neck on single coil and the bridge on hum..and just toggle the 5 way blade..)and the gen 3 tremolo.. Do you think I'm in the ball park by thinking of a 509?
Many thanks!

 

[Dancing Frog]

This is just epic!

Man(I guess) you are just brilliant!
Thanks for the info you are clearly very knowledgeable...

It sounds like you have/had a509...
Basically, I'm looking for a versatile guitar that can do styles from jazz to screaming leads and was looking at the 509 as I like the switching system (like having the neck on single coil and the bridge on hum..and just toggle the 5 way blade..)and the gen 3 tremolo.. Do you think I'm in the ball park by thinking of a 509?
Many thanks!

Two 509's currently. And yes, I think you're in the ball park. It can flip from Larry Carlton and Robben Ford to Jimi Hendrix and beyond in a flash.

 

[Omri]

Two 509's currently. And yes, I think you're in the ball park. It can flip from Larry Carlton and Robben Ford to Jimi Hendrix and beyond in a flash.

Two 509's currently. And yes, I think you're in the ball park. It can flip from Larry Carlton and Robben Ford to Jimi Hendrix and beyond in a flash.

Two 509's currently. And yes, I think you're in the ball park. It can flip from Larry Carlton and Robben Ford to Jimi Hendrix and beyond in a flash.

 

[Omri]

Two 509's currently. And yes, I think you're in the ball park. It can flip from Larry Carlton and Robben Ford to Jimi Hendrix and beyond in a flash.

Two 509's currently. And yes, I think you're in the ball park. It can flip from Larry Carlton and Robben Ford to Jimi Hendrix and beyond in a flash.

Cool man thank you!

I think I'm getting one

 

[Glide-bpm]

Just bought this one from Moore Music & Guitars. Used to have a 513. Like the 509 switching better!

 

[bodia]

Just bought this one from Moore Music & Guitars. Used to have a 513. Like the 509 switching better!

Nice top!

 

[Glide-bpm]

Nice top!

Thanks! I have a 408 in Faded Whale Blue, but it is more of a flamed pattern and is nothing like THAT one in depth!
10 Top, but if it's that good looking or better in person, I'll be stoked! Got it X% off for their moving sale.
Under normal with a black paisley Artist case.

 

[gush]

Just bought this one from Moore Music & Guitars. Used to have a 513. Like the 509 switching better!

This top is ridiculous. I feel very lucky to have the prs guitars that I do but when I see guitars like this I WANT!!!

 

[Glide-bpm]

This top is ridiculous. I feel very lucky to have the prs guitars that I do but when I see guitars like this I WANT!!!

Know the feeling... I've had and have guitars that are more plain Jane working horses, but
I've got a couple of nice tops, too. To get this one under normal, I was pumped. No offense to
my dude at Sweetwater, but they didn't have anything in this price range with a top
that looked way more expensive than it was. I mean, this is a legit and marked 10 top. It appears
to have some Artist Package features, including the Artist case. Most of the ones I've seen that looked
like this one were high dollar. HAD to jump on it!

I love pretty guitars like this one, but I'm not a guitar snob at all. I have some Korean made guitars
that play and perform just as good and better. Most of them have my favorite custom wound
www.zhangbucker.com pickups in them!

 

[Dancing Frog]

Know the feeling... I've had and have guitars that are more plain Jane working horses, but
I've got a couple of nice tops, too. To get this one under normal, I was pumped. No offense to
my buddy Tyeler at Sweetwater, but they didn't have anything in this price range with a top
that looked way more expensive than it was. I mean, this is a legit and marked 10 top. It appears
to have some Artist Package features, including the Artist case. Most of the ones I've seen that looked
like this one were high dollar. HAD to jump on it!

I love pretty guitars like this one, but I'm not a guitar snob at all. I have some Korean made guitars
that play and perform just as good and better. Most of them have my favorite custom wound
www.zhangbucker.com pickups in them!

I think I would have jumped on that one too, but I had already used up my karma with the GOTM. The plain Jane is a 10-top.

 

[Glide-bpm]

OMG... That GOTM is freaking awesome!!!!!!
Ferris Bueller, you're my hero..........

 

[rmg471]

Just bought this one from Moore Music & Guitars. Used to have a 513. Like the 509 switching better!

I just picked one up from them today! It's a black quilt top with maple neck and board!

Have you gotten strat tones out of it?

 

[Glide-bpm]

It's subjective to each person, but I can get some twang and quack out of it. It's a nice hybrid guitar for me.

 

[rmg471]

It's subjective to each person, but I can get some twang and quack out of it. It's a nice hybrid guitar for me.

I put on a set of .009 gauge strings and dropped the action to 2/32 at the 17th fret. I adjusted the pickups to 2/32 from the bottom of the string to the top of the pickup when pressing the string down at the last (22nd) fret. It's stratty. Even a good Tele tone on the bridge single coil position.

I love the guys at Moore Music. It's a great store. I'd encourage everyone to visit there some day.

 

[Maertl513]

@Omri, as far as my knowledge regarding the pickup design of 513 / 509 / 305 goes, it occurs years ago that a guy named Doug Shive came along at the factory in Stevensville to install some pickups of a PRS bass guitar onto a electric. It´s supposed that those particular pups belonged to a PRS Grainer bass. In their ears it sounded not as bad, therefore they proceed additonal R&D and invented the patend pending 513 circuit and those 513 pickups. Responsible for those singlecoils was PRS-emplyee Winn Krozak. From 2004 to end of 2013 a printed circuit board was mounted in the electric compartment, as start of production the 2014 range, 513 came along with hand wired electrical components, because of the opinion it delivers a more transparent and better sound.

Arguments for discontinuing the 513 are: complex switching, some don´t used the heavy humbucking voicing.

I don´t know who said that. They (PRS) didn´t ask me. I´ve got an opponend opinion. 513 aren´t mega sellers, right. But 513 have been unique by their switching and design.
And, hey, why it is difficult to care about three modes (singlecoil, clear humbucking, heavy humbucking) on one three way switch with easy access, and a classic 5-way-pickup selection on the other blade selector switch? Aswell with easy access.
First with the GOM May 2016, then with introduction the 509 as new core model PRS just produces (by face validity layout, it´s obviously not a SSS design) another HSH guitar to the market with the feature to split the humbucker on treble or bass position (more specific: to switch of a whole coil of the singlecoil pair on their certain position).
(Living overseas and grown up not in USA my words aren´t bloomy and wrapped in wadding for criticism. In my opinion it has been a mistake to discontinue.)

My dear friend Dancing Frog is a dear expert of 513 and 509. Relating to a possible pickup modification towards 513 to 509 Dancing Frog COULD be right. From a econonist´s perspective it would have been easier keeping those pickups. On the other hand: 513´s Clear Humbucking mode demands both coils with less output than in Heavy Humbucking. I guess 55 to 80 % of the whole coil capability.
Therefore they might reduced the amount of wire in the coils to achieve that Clear Humbucking voicing as maximum capability.

 

[owickerman]

My 509 is my ultimate rock/blues machine.
If all the 9 sounds are very good, the ones i use the most are 2 and 4 in single coils and the humbuckers with à strong atraction for the neck pup.