Pros vs. Cons of This Endeavor...?

[CandidPicker]

Hi,

Recently, technology has made it possible to use your FX board as a preamp with an amp/mic/cab sim for placement thru a audio interface for recording, or mixer/PA for live sound.

I currently own a very nice boutique Fender-like Brunetti 35W Singleman 1x12 combo that I'm wondering about.

Because my age is creeping up on me, and lugging weighty gear to an open-mic is not as easy over time, would it make sense to invest in something like a Two Notes CAB M, and sell my Brunetti?

My only concern is that the CAB M have similar tone and/or performance quality from the CAB M compared to the Brunetti. IIRC, the CAB M Boutique Store sells a Brunetti "The One" cab model that might well suit my needs regards my current amp.

My effects board houses 2 overdrive effects, one used for clean boost/tone coloration, the other for smooth, singing lead work. Would these overdrive and boost effects be adequate as 'preamp' effects for the CAB M?

Your thought are appreciated. It may be possible for me to make the switch to FX board only for recording/PA work entirely and sell my Brunetti to someone who appreciates a quality tube amp.

 

[Axis39]

I have two buddies I shoot the s with on a regular basis about music gear. We talk about all kinds fo crap. But, the biggest difference between the three of us is the level of commitment to modern technology we have made.

One has gone all in. He uses a Helix and a Line6 powered cabinet thing of some sort.
One has a split rig. He has both setups, Helix and tube amps.
I'm the neanderthal who keeps trying to grasp the technology, but is often overwhelmed by it and am still playing through tube amps all the time... While my HX Stomp gathers dust.

When they play through their digital/solid state rigs, it sounds fine. They are perfectly happy. They like fiddling with the settings and are pretty good at it.

I have little patience when it comes to music. I want to plug in and play. Maybe I'll turn a knob or two... Maybe? I rarely take the time to tweak my rig until it sounds good enough and I don't enjoy doing that very much. I'm just not smart enough.

Every few years, I invest in technology and try things out. I tried an ElevenRack. I tried running plugins and stuff through a DAW and interface. I tried some Zoom thing years ago and a Digitech thing in between. I tried a Line6 Spider amp, I tried a Fender Mustang (actually two different ones, I think). I'm sure there's other stuff I've tried over the years. But, I struggle with it every time.

It isn't the technology. It's me. I understand this... I keep trying every few years. I have an HX Stomp I haven't touched in a couple months, but I'll struggle with it again and probably keep trying until the resale price is not worth it to even pay the listing fees... But, I may never use it on stage.

Gotta find out what's right for you. You might be like my friends Lance and Paul. They get it and make it work, really well. Or you might be like me and think about a neodymium speaker to lower the weight.

 

[Mozzi]

I think that the modern digital options can mirror any amp, cab, mic etc - consistently and reliably.

There is something special though about plugging into a Valve Amp and playing. That being said, I don't know that I would want to cart around my Marshall 100w JVM410c Combo or an equivalent Amp head and cabinet(s).

If I was a touring, gigging musician, one that would need to mic up cabinets and feed into a PA system, I would seriously consider a Kemper, Helix or equivalent. I would probably consider the Helix LT/Floor perhaps more so as they are more reasonably priced and have the option of replacing your pedal board - or at least a lot of the pedals. That would seriously cut down the amount of items and weight that I would need to cart around. I would still have Valve amps though for home/studio use.

That leads me to my answer to this dilemma. If you are looking to gig/tour, you could look at the modern digital options - even profile your Amp to recreate your tone whilst on the road if that's what you want - you could use any of the amps, cabs and mics that these come with too if you prefer - even create different combinations, different patches for different songs. It will be a lot easier, very consistent and reliable and a lot lighter too. If you love your Boutique amp, you could still use this if you prefer for home/studio usage.

Everyone is different so you will have to decide what's best for you. Your audience probably won't know what amp, cab or digital device you are using and certainly won't hear the difference if you swapped half way through. What's most important though is what is right for you. Your audience will hear if you are not as comfortable as you could be - regardless of what you are playing through.

As I said, what I would do is go digital if I was gigging and even though I have no plans to gig in the foreseeable future, I am looking at buying a Helix LT/Floor for home use. My JVM is too large and loud to play at home and I can have a LOT of Amps/Cabs - as well as a multitude of pedals and effects all in one convenient box that I can connect directly to my PC if I want or even just headphones. I still have my Valve Amps too so I would be expanding my options/choice. What I would do though is not relevant as you should do what's right for you.

 

[11top]

I’m using either a HeadRush Pedalboard or an unpowered Kemper with Headrush 2000 watt FRFR cabs. I just got 2 of the 108 cabs and they sit atop poles. The whole thing is very compact and lightweight and sounds terrific. It’s an old (and young) man’s dream.

 

[CandidPicker]

...I have little patience when it comes to music. I want to plug in and play. Maybe I'll turn a knob or two... Maybe? I rarely take the time to tweak my rig until it sounds good enough and I don't enjoy doing that very much. I'm just not smart enough.

Every few years, I invest in technology and try things out. I tried an ElevenRack. I tried running plugins and stuff through a DAW and interface. I tried some Zoom thing years ago and a Digitech thing in between. I tried a Line6 Spider amp, I tried a Fender Mustang (actually two different ones, I think). I'm sure there's other stuff I've tried over the years. But, I struggle with it every time.

It isn't the technology. It's me. I understand this... I keep trying every few years. I have an HX Stomp I haven't touched in a couple months, but I'll struggle with it again and probably keep trying until the resale price is not worth it to even pay the listing fees... But, I may never use it on stage.

Gotta find out what's right for you. You might be like my friends Lance and Paul. They get it and make it work, really well. Or you might be like me and think about a neodymium speaker to lower the weight.

You make valid points. I'm usually a plug & play guy myself. I once owned a Torpedo CAB that sat on my board for recording purposes while still using my amp for open-mics. I've also owned 2 Mustang II's that served as line-outs to my audio interface for a time.

The Torpedo CAB was fairly intuitive and also has some nifty computer OS software that makes creating presets much easier. The CAB M is also of this type, though it is considered an always-on device once connected to 12VDC power. I think the learning curve for the CAB M is not that difficult, since I've some experience with the CAB itself.

It might be nice to consider a neodymium speaker if I knew what speaker power handling capability my Brunetti has. (Time to dig out the owner's manual) My current speaker is a Celestion G12 (something), but I've no clue what model speaker this is, the speaker doesn't say. (Again, to the owner's manual for understanding).

I love my Brunetti and would be devastated if I were to choose poorly and sell the amp before considering my options. You've made a good case for keeping my amp and putting in a lighter-weight speaker...

 

[CandidPicker]

...That being said, I don't know that I would want to cart around my Marshall 100w JVM410c Combo or an equivalent Amp head and cabinet(s).

If I was a touring, gigging musician, one that would need to mic up cabinets and feed into a PA system, I would seriously consider a Kemper, Helix or equivalent. I would probably consider the Helix LT/Floor perhaps more so as they are more reasonably priced and have the option of replacing your pedal board - or at least a lot of the pedals. That would seriously cut down the amount of items and weight that I would need to cart around. I would still have Valve amps though for home/studio use.

That leads me to my answer to this dilemma. If you are looking to gig/tour, you could look at the modern digital options - even profile your Amp to recreate your tone whilst on the road if that's what you want - you could use any of the amps, cabs and mics that these come with too if you prefer - even create different combinations, different patches for different songs. It will be a lot easier, very consistent and reliable and a lot lighter too. If you love your Boutique amp, you could still use this if you prefer for home/studio usage.

...I can connect directly to my PC if I want or even just headphones.

Your post reveals a lot of what I what trying to say...portability is a concern, or at least carting my gear to/from the car and in/out of the venue. My main venue has cobblestone paving bricks about 30 feet long into the gig itself, and at least twice, my amp has experienced either some tube or amp jewel light issues because of the cobblestones.

A more expensive digital device (Kemper, Helix, etc) is not on the table simply because of cost. I used to own an all-in-one $1799 (forgettable name) pedalboard, but the device was not easy to use, and I ended up selling that at considerable loss. My budget might allow for the CAB M if the one-in-one-out principle could be applied, or possibly one-in-2-out.

Previously owning the Torpedo CAB and owning a tube amp occurred because I didn't realize that one could practice thru one's computer monitors with an audio interface that would also be used for recording. The tricky part is dialing in a good setting with each of the devices that doesn't clip or drive the following devices too hard.

What do you think about swapping out for a neodymium speaker (for weight concerns)? That might lighten my load at least carting the gear, if not allow me to keep my Brunetti for its quality...

 

[CandidPicker]

I’m using either a HeadRush Pedalboard or an unpowered Kemper with Headrush 2000 watt FRFR cabs. I just got 2 of the 108 cabs and they sit atop poles. The whole thing is very compact and lightweight and sounds terrific. It’s an old (and young) man’s dream.

The venue is supplied with a router/mixer/PA. (Powered router that runs off of an iPad mixer app)

Most guest musicians merely plug into the router/mixer for acoustic, or connect their FX boards to their amps and play. If the option exists to connect straight to the router/mixer, the host can control volume thru the PA speakers and floor monitor rather than ask the guest to either raise or lower their amp volume while on stage. Not to mention greater ease of set-up/tear-down and soundcheck.

The HeadRush would work if my wallet were more virile. LOL. The CAB M would be much more feasible and within my budget.

 

[bodia]

Check out the Amplifire products. They sound awesome, and won't break the bank.

 

[CandidPicker]

Check out the Amplifire products. They sound awesome, and won't break the bank.

Thx, just did. Was looking for a device that would replace amp/mic/cab, not add additional effects. Was hoping to keep my current FX, as well as not employing technology I'm not used to.

Two Notes I've some knowledge of; the AmpliFIRE 6 box I'd have more trouble trying to understand. The other problem is that the AmpliFIRE 6 box wouldn't fit on my FX board, whereas the CAB M would.

Thanks for the thought, though. Any cost-effective solutions are appreciated!

 

[bodia]

Will do. Will need to check FX board size constraints before considering.

That's the thing about Amplifire. The AA6 is the size of a double pedal, and the AA12 is the size of a small pedalboard. Maybe 16" X 8"? Computer interface for editing, or you can use the knobs on the unit. The AA12 has a 128 slots for your desired amps. There are some good sounding profiles on their site. Loaded with every effect you could want. Brett Kingman has some YT vids up on them.

 

[CandidPicker]

That's the thing about Amplifire. The AA6 is the size of a double pedal, and the AA12 is the size of a small pedalboard. Maybe 16" X 8"? Computer interface for editing, or you can use the knobs on the unit. The AA12 has a 128 slots for your desired amps. There are some good sounding profiles on their site. Loaded with every effect you could want. Brett Kingman has some YT vids up on them.

I appreciate that. My FX board just can't accommodate the AA6, even with downsizing a less necessary pedal. Shawn Tubbs makes a good vid regards the CAB M's use, both with an amp and just a preamp into an audio interface...

 

[Mozzi]

To be honest, I am not sure of the pricing or the budget you would be looking at. The Helix LT for example is cheaper than the new Marshall 20w amps, its cheaper than the new Boss Tube Amp Expander that was shown off at NAMM.Its around the price as a PRS Custom SE where I live - not bad for a pedal board and Amp Modeller, something with 62 Amps, 37 Cabs, 16 Microphones, and 104 Effects (according to their Website) - Plus you can can profile your own Amp/Cab/Mic too. It could be ALL you need to take with you - as well as the Guitars and Cables of course.

As far as I am aware, correct me if I am wrong as I have no real experience with the Torpedo Cab M, but isn't that just a cab simulator - just simulating your Speakers and mic set-up. Doesn't it still need a Pre-amp? I thought this was an end of chain option that models just the cabinets, the mics and 'room' so you will still need a pre-amp on your board. It looks like this just replaces your need to take a speaker cab and mics but I don't have any experience with it.

I really don't know how the pricing of all of these products are. If you don't need the whole Helix boards, there is also the Helix Stomp that has Amps, cabs, mics and effects - just in a much smaller 'pedal board' unit as opposed to being your entire pedal board like the Helix LT or Floor. The Stomp looks to be more like the thing you need - something that can replace the need to take an Amp, Cab and Mic. The Stomp maybe ALL you need to take if you don't use Expression pedals...

 

[bodia]

I appreciate that. My FX board just can't accommodate the AA6, even with downsizing a less necessary pedal. Shawn Tubbs makes a good vid regards the CAB M's use, both with an amp and just a preamp into an audio interface...

I guess I didn't realize you would put the AA on the pedal board. My bad, if I missed that. I was talking about replacing your pedal board with the AA6 or AA12. Amps and effects, all in one compact device.

I just got the AA12 a couple of weeks ago. Sold my board, and every pedal I had (well, I have a small board and 6 pedals for the Archon, which is two floors up. The AA12 is all I have in the basement.

 

[CandidPicker]

...As far as I am aware, correct me if I am wrong as I have no real experience with the Torpedo Cab M, but isn't that just a cab simulator - just simulating your Speakers and mic set-up. Doesn't it still need a Pre-amp? I thought this was an end of chain option that models just the cabinets, the mics and 'room' so you will still need a pre-amp on your board. It looks like this just replaces your need to take a speaker cab and mics but I don't have any experience with it.

Yes, the CAB M is basically an amp/mic/cab sim effect, though Two Notes has put extra features (EQ, mic axis adjustments, various reverbs, among other features) that lend a given quality sim effect compared to similar devices. The CAB M offers a power amp section with a variety of power tube modeling (EL84s, 6V6, 6L6, EL34s, KT88s, all offered as single-end (SE) and push-pull (PP)) with either triode or pentode configs. Only thing needed to power the CAB M is some form of preamp circuit, whether that be a good compressor, overdrive, distortion, or boost effect prior to the CAB M that remains on.

Granted, the CAB M cab library contains only 32 available preset cab models, but additional ones can be purchased ($8/each) and swapped out of your cab library with their free computer OS software. The CAB M is typically a last-in-chain device just before your audio interface or mixer/PA. There is also an option for using your amp's FX loop and putting the CAB M inline for PA and/or recording if your amp is your basis for preamp signal. The device is not a load box, so any external amp that feeds the CAB M still requires a speaker load. It is possible to use the CAB M solely with your effects board, again, if your FX board has some type of preamp circuit that adequately feeds the CAB M.

I really don't know how the pricing of all of these products are. If you don't need the whole Helix boards, there is also the Helix Stomp that has Amps, cabs, mics and effects - just in a much smaller 'pedal board' unit as opposed to being your entire pedal board like the Helix LT or Floor. The Stomp looks to be more like the thing you need - something that can replace the need to take an Amp, Cab and Mic. The Stomp maybe ALL you need to take if you don't use Expression pedals...

As tempting as the HX Stomp may be, I think my budget won't allow much wiggle room for investing in this type of device. I'm fairly particular regards what type of effects I prefer, and putting the kid in the candy shop with the HX Stomp is not my idea of sticking with what you know. My budget is just about $300 plus tax, the price tag of the CAB M.

Thanks for the suggestion, though the HX Stomp with its routing and parameters would be beyond my scope of understanding, the CAB M is more my level of knowledge, given that I've understood Two Notes technology previously...

 

[CandidPicker]

I guess I didn't realize you would put the AA on the pedal board. My bad, if I missed that. I was talking about replacing your pedal board with the AA6 or AA12. Amps and effects, all in one compact device.

I just got the AA12 a couple of weeks ago. Sold my board, and every pedal I had (well, I have a small board and 6 pedals for the Archon, which is two floors up. The AA12 is all I have in the basement.

In your case, that seems reasonable. My feeling is to keep my existing board with its various options that could be purchased/sold individually, rather than go all-in on one device that would likely become obsolete after a given time and require upgrading at comparable cost.

My preference is to still keep individual effects on my board for what each one does. IMHO, it's easier to sell an individual effect that an all-in-one device because buyers understand what one device does, whereas they'd need a degree in science to understand what an HX Stomp does. One device = simple. All-in-one device = Not so easy.

The CAB M (since I've owned 2 Two Notes devices previously) has been built with an intuitive effect interface, as well as being adjustable at the computer level. IIRC, the WOS (Wall of Sound) OS is now possible for iPad, so tweaking your effects and CAB M for soundcheck can be done just prior to performance. (Let me look into this, since the Two Notes website displays a sound tech using an iPad with WOS and virtual mixer together, possibly connected via bluetooth).

The CAB M might be a wise investment if ever an amp onstage might be a hindrance rather than a blessing. And with technology moving forwards, there may be a need for an investment like the CAB M or similar device that can be self-contained within an FX board and transported with greater ease.

I'm not saying an all-in-one device wouldn't work, though it may not be a good solution for my needs.

 

[CandidPicker]

Well,

This evening has been productive. I spent a good 3 hours disassembling/reassembling my FX board (wire wrap, zip ties disassembly included) plus re-wiring/re-configuring the FX board itself. The effects were moved round in a Z-type fashion, upper left towards the right, then diagonally and lower left towards lower right. What was originally this:

Now has the tuner above the wah in the upper left corner, and the Keeley Dynatrem has been removed from the board. The pedal riser on the upper tier has been shifted left and the Empress buffer now sits off of the pedal riser to the far upper right. The connection for the CAB M seems to be toward upper mid-left, with the buffer being last in chain before the CAB M.

Plz forgive the errant knob settings. When you've been busy re-wiring, the knob settings get bounced around a tad. (Couple times I'd realize I'd put the wrong pedal in the chain before the correct one, followed by a brief self-admonition and reassurance to myself to not mess it up again. I did say a couple times...sheesh...)

Connections were tested for continuity before reassembly, as well as 2 new LavaCable connectors made on the fly. The Empress buffer amp out connector is not fully connected to display where the buffer connects to the CAB M. The cable was lengthy, routed under the board center to the outer left and back inwards again to avoid power cable connection interference.

Zip ties and wire wrap underneath the board will be completed once the board tests OK for amp soundcheck, and then entirely after the CAB M will be ordered earlier next month. The CAB M will output to the left via angled Mogami instrument or XLR cable to my audio interface which resides next door to the FX board and amp. Otherwise the 12VDC CAB M power connector will be unplugged while the amp is tested, as will the buffer amp output, which will connect instead to the Brunetti directly via instrument cable.

I should likely say that I've decided to keep my Brunetti (for the sheer visceral quality a tube amp has) and budget towards the CAB M, and possibly later this year, a neodymium speaker replacement for the Brunetti Celestion G12. The G12 has a ferrite magnet, though with the neodymium, I might be able to shave off 6 lbs lift weight I/O apartment / car / venue if the Brunetti was needed for the venue. Anything to help save a back, shoulder and arm while transporting said amp.

 

[Johnny Rigs]

Which of your current pedals would fill the role of preamp? Most OD and boost pedals are designed to push the preamp section of a real amp, not serve as the preamp itself. Though some can fill that role adequately. But I certainly wouldn’t sell your Brunetti before testing out your current pedals with a Cab M. If there’s one thing I’ve learned trying to replace gear with other gear, it’s that head-to-head comparisons give much more reliable answers than questionable memories of how things sounded.

 

[CandidPicker]

Which of your current pedals would fill the role of preamp? Most OD and boost pedals are designed to push the preamp section of a real amp, not serve as the preamp itself. Though some can fill that role adequately. But I certainly wouldn’t sell your Brunetti before testing out your current pedals with a Cab M. If there’s one thing I’ve learned trying to replace gear with other gear, it’s that head-to-head comparisons give much more reliable answers than questionable memories of how things sounded.

Hi, Johnny,

The preamp would likely be the Ego compressor, which typically remains always on. Shawn Tubbs YT vid uses a Revv distortion effect before the CAB M as his preamp. That might be OK, but I think I'd need some clean tone as a basis for my preamp.

And, yes, totally understood the Brunetti would still remain in-house even before considering any sale even with the CAB M on the FX board. I've done the pig-in-a-poke thing before and sometimes have been lucky, other times, meh.

Monday will be a day of fielding calls from my sales reps with some Q/A regards what might suit the bill preamp wise. If the Ego Compressor is adequate, I'm good. If not, the what-if scenario occurs and budgets are considered again.

The Golden Horse works wonderfully as a mild OD/boost, coloring the tone ever so slightly in a beautiful way. That plus the Ego Comp and Blue Note pair together amazingly well. Several directed questions to my sales rep will provide my solution soon. I'm hopeful that the sum of the individual parts will be greater than the whole, but I'll need to look at the whole picture before choosing what parts will go where.

 

[László]

The key thing you mentioned is the visceral sound of a tube amp. That about sums up in one word what the modelers miss.

Yes, they can sound very good. But it ain’t the same.

My plug and play, “carry less weighty stuff” solution is a tube head and an amp load box that can go into a PA or recording device. Granted, a tube head weighs more than an unpowered modeling thing, but it’s manageable, and a load box is the size of a small book.

Not saying anyone else should do this, just what suits me.

 

[Mozzi]

I would say that if you are looking to replace your Amp with a CAB-M and hoping your pedals will drive it as a 'pre-amp', I would think that you would lose your tone, your sound. I don't know if you would need to keep certain pedals on too. The set-up you are proposing is to bypass some thing else that shapes your sound. With a Helix, the Stomp seems to be a few hundred more dollars but can replace your entire pedal board, amp, cab & Mic - as well as offer a digital interface for PA, PC etc.

With this type of set-up, you can profile your boutique amp and have your sound - whether you want to use your pedals, Helix effects etc or not. You will have 'your' sound as if you are connected to your real amp or not. You can literally replace 'everything' - bar the guitar(s) and cables with just a Helix. The only thing you would need to take would be your Helix & Guitar and would still be taking your Amp/cab/mic - just modelled in the Helix.

I know its a bit more money but it offers a lot more than the CAB M. I do think it would be the best answer and most likely to give you your boutique amp without having to take your boutique amp, mics etc. A Helix can be used to replace all your gear if you want it too, certainly replace your Amps, Cabs and Mics - even your pedals if you want. The Stomp is a great addition to your existing pedal board if you want to keep carrying your pedals and use them in exactly the same way you always have and with the same sound you are used to.

The CAB M looks more for those with an Amp head that want a digital interface to send their tone to a PA or PC - not to replace an Amp. I know some pre-amps are available as a Pedal too which may be the best option to put in front of the CAB M to use it on a pedal board.