Possible tube shortage?

[dmatthews]

Hmmm...
“There is a worldwide panic on availability of vacuum tubes”: EHX's Mike Matthews on the murky future of valve amps | Guitar.com | All Things Guitar

Let the speculation begin...
Hype? Reality? Slow news day?

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I vote “slow news day.”

 

[RickP]

Always worry some when a barber reports a shortage of available haircuts… but, yeah, tube sources have been dwindling for decades, with only a few factories producing a slew of brand names each. I have a shelf full of spares, but imagine they’ll just keep getting more expensive as time passes. Add in a global pandemic and materials pipeline issues, and instant “shortage.”

 

[dmatthews]

I have a problem believing anyone with the last name Matthews.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I have a problem believing anyone with the last name Matthews.

IKR!

But seriously... as Rick pointed out, in these circumstances, everything has a shortage. My wife "bought" me a new iPad for my birthday (a month ago) and it won't be in til at least new years. They sell BILLIONS of these stinkin things, but right now, there's a "shortage."

Not to mention... a caution of a shortage issued by someone who OWNS a tube factory. hmmm....

 

[dmatthews]

IKR!



Not to mention... a caution of a shortage issued by someone who OWNS a tube factory. hmmm....

Ding ding ding!
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but didn't that peak my interest?!!???

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

As EHX CEO says China factory is no longer operational. It went in flames couple of years ago and district officials refused it to rebuild in the same location. Since then lots of companies started to struggle. Tubes my Boogie came with MESA 6L6 STR 440 are no longer made and unobtainable, same with any other Chinese tubes they used to re-brand. I have managed to secure little stock that will last me decade or so.

TAD tubes has been heavily based on China factory special orders too and the 6L6GC-STR Blackplate RCA-Style tubes they used to sell (amazing stuff) is now also gone, same with matched triode phase inverter tubes as well as many more.

Point is - you can get tubes, not seeing Russian and Czech factories to close doors anytime soon. Two factories worldwide making tubes for guitar amps, they will keep going. But if you favored Chinese tubes you better start looking for replacement

 

[dmatthews]

As EHX CEO says China factory is no longer operational. It went in flames couple of years ago and district officials refused it to rebuild in the same location. Since then lots of companies started to struggle. Tubes my Boogie came with MESA 6L6 STR 440 are no longer made and unobtainable, same with any other Chinese tubes they used to re-brand. I have managed to secure little stock that will last me decade or so.

TAD tubes has been heavily based on China factory special orders too and the 6L6GC-STR Blackplate RCA-Style tubes they used to sell (amazing stuff) is now also gone, same with matched triode phase inverter tubes as well as many more.

Point is - you can get tubes, not seeing Russian and Czech factories to close doors anytime soon. Two factories worldwide making tubes for guitar amps, they will keep going. But if you favored Chinese tubes you better start looking for replacement

The important thing to me is that there remain a steady supply/stream of competent/excellent tube types for the amps we love.
NOS can only last so long.

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

The important thing to me is that there remain a steady supply/stream of competent/excellent tube types for the amps we love.
NOS can only last so long.

I bet it will, mate. Imagine - you own one of two factories in entire world making product that people relay on. Would you shut it? Its a golden goose since Chinese are not the game

I'm trying to stay away from NOS. I used to use =C= EL34 in Marshall and Orange amps I used to have and sourcing that was a pain, even thought I wouldn't call them super vintage back then or even now.

I like STR440 and will keep using them as long as I can is because they are so sparkly. All other PA tubes I tried with my Fillmore sounded dull in comparison. Other than V1 all other tubes till recently has been widely available.

 

[dmatthews]

I bet it will, mate. Imagine - you own one of two factories in entire world making product that people relay on. Would you shut it? Its a golden goose since Chinese are not the game

I'm trying to stay away from NOS. I used to use =C= EL34 in Marshall and Orange amps I used to have and sourcing that was a pain, even thought I wouldn't call them super vintage back then or even now.

I like STR440 and will keep using them as long as I can is because they are so sparkly. All other PA tubes I tried with my Fillmore sounded dull in comparison. Other than V1 all other tubes till recently has been widely available.

My ear is not as good as some. My H had Winged C when I got it and I loved the tone. It blew out at a gig one night and I tried some other tubes but they sucked no matter the bias adjustment.
Contacted PRS and they suggested Ruby. That did the trick for me.

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

My ear is not as good as some. My H had Winged C when I got it and I loved the tone. It blew out at a gig one night and I tried some other tubes but they sucked no matter the bias adjustment.
Contacted PRS and they suggested Ruby. That did the trick for me.

Yeah, =C= has been awesome in my Rockerverb. Never tried the 6L6 =C= as these has been always super expensive but Mesa has been selling the EL34's and I think I was the one who bought last 5 sets from them. I have foolishly sold them to the same guy I sold my Rockerverb to...

Main reason being I have tried to stay away from out of production / NOS stuff and to use what is available and currently made. I still would do that if only Chines factory would still be up and running. Damn 440's are great.

The only exception to no NOS game is V1 preamp position in my boogie. The tube I'm using is late 70's and nothing breaks quite like this one. Brand that most people never even heard of. I only have 3 tubes, one currently in my Boogie, one spare and one that is microphonic to ****. Checking world wide for more every month or so but no luck.

I probably would be just fine if I got the drive from pedals or **** but I slam the front end of my amp with Secret Preamp and kicking in EP Booster for more drive so I relay on V1 overload... oh well

 

[tiboy]

Glad I keep a Kemper to back up my 3 tube amps. Oh, and back up tubes on the shelf.

 

[archtop]

The mesa 6L6 STR441 is also out of stock for retail sales, Mesa has a stash for new amps and repairs only. The STR441 appears to be a re-branded or special ordered Tung Sol.

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

The mesa 6L6 STR441 is also out of stock for retail sales, Mesa has a stash for new amps and repairs only. The STR441 appears to be a re-branded or special ordered Tung Sol.

Mesa is out of stock with everything, even footswitches not to mention their amps. I wanted second 2x12 for my amp for quite some time and there was only one of these in whole England. I was thinking to wait for a bit but when I learned the new shipment may happen as soon as second quarter of 2022 or later I did the thing and bought it on spot.

 

[Slow Dog Noodle]

I've been toying with the idea of looking into starting an American tube manufacturing company. After some cursory investigations, usually following a few beers; and a few months of thought, i've got a few observations for you all:

Opportunities -

There are only a handful of tube manufacturers in the world making new stock. There are lots of places selling new old stock. Russia, China and some eastern Euro country Croatia maybe? are the only places actually producing new tubes, and as Simon uh, says, China may not be a dependable source going forward (if they ever were in the first place).

There is a trend globally away from globalization and offshoring, led by China vs US, that I personally believe is going to intensify over the next 10-20 years as China and the US become more at odds. Could argue for days about what brought this about, or whether its real, but i'm convinced in the general trend, and that trend would be positive for a small US manufacturer creating American jobs in America.

Following the first two, a well made, American made, well branded (think eagle, american flag, gun, etc on the box) product should be in demand by audiophiles and guitar players. I'm thinking that this would be a premium product, not made on the cheap.

Challenges -

I don't have any experience in manufacturing, much less tubes.

From what i understand, there's some nasty stuff required. Buying, storing, using and disposing of various hazardous materials could pose problems.

Is is realistic to make a premium tube? Can they be produced with the consistency and quality necessary to command a premium price?

Is demand large enough to cover the start-up costs over a pay-back period of 3-5 years? I may be overestimating how many people want new tubes, since there is still so much new old stock around. It would cost a significant amount of money to start the operation, and I'd have to be producing enough to get above water in a few years. I haven't really got into the numbers, but I'm a finance guy so the numbers don't scare me as much as the manufacturing questions.

Any new business is a risky venture. I don't love tubes - i just got the idea after replacing the tubes in my twin reverb a few months ago and learning more about them. This idea came from observing the market, not from a love of the thing itself. Is it wise to start a business from that angle?

Thanks for reading. These thoughts have been floating around a lot over the past few months and its good to get them out there to what seems like a pretty informed group (of potential customers!).

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

One observation:

This...

think eagle, american flag, gun, etc on the box

...is less important to me than this

I don't have any experience in manufacturing, much less tubes.

Its 2021, 60's are way over. Globalisation and what it comes with it (information flow, tooling, technology) made the country of origin non relevant.

 

[chicagoslim]

I think that it's more like a shortage of tubes, that I want to use. I'm just not happy with the quality, for the price they charge.

As a guitar teacher, I try to use good beginner type of equipment, that my students can afford. So, I've owned Katana's, etc. They are what they are, which is pretty practical. My Fender, Tone Master Deluxe Reverb and Boss NexTone have become my go to amps. I still use my Vox or Bat Cat tube amps, to dial-in my modeler's. YMMV!

 

[Em7]

I do not believe that we will ever see new U.S.-based vacuum tube production. The last operating vacuum tube plant, Sylvania's Emporium, PA vacuum tube manufacturing facility, is now a Superfund site. Vacuum tube manufacturing is a filthy industry. The getter flash that leaves silver residue on the top of tubes is usually composed of an aluminum-barium mix, which is pretty nasty stuff.

The reality is that we are rapidly approaching a day when vacuum tubes will be a conversation piece. Older guitarists remember a previous period of time when we were looking at the extinction of tube technology. The Emporium plant shipped their last tubes in 1988. During the end of the eighties through the mid-nineties, gear manufacturers were preparing for the extinction of vacuum tubes. Peavey's Transtube technology grew out of the company's preparation for the a tubeless world, and so did Marshall's Valvestate technology. Most of the rack gear in the late eighties through the grunge period in the nineties was solid-state. Even PRS acknowledged that tube technology was in trouble with the introduction of the Harmonic Generator. Solid-state is not inherently inferior to tube technology. If it had not been for communist countries holding on to tube technology because of its superior resistance to EMP, we would not even be talking about losing it again. The fall of the Berlin Wall breathed new life into tube audio and guitar amps. Backlash from the over indulgences of hair metal led to people moving back to more primitive sounds and gear. However, when it comes to high-gain old school metal and metal as a whole, well-executed solid-state designs are superior to tube-type designs. It is easier to design a low-noise, high-gain preamp using solid-state electronics than tube-type electronics. The problem lies with musicians expecting solid-state amps to be budget amps. That mindset limits the production of high-end solid-state guitar amps. Well-done solid-state amps have more complex circuitry than tube-type amps. The combination of a clean analog solid-state preamp feeding a DSP via an ADC, which in turn, feeds an DAC and then a linear amplifier is not only producing realistic approximations of old sounds, it is opening up new sounds to guitarists.

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

I do not believe that we will ever see new U.S.-based vacuum tube production. The last operating vacuum tube plant, Sylvania's Emporium, PA vacuum tube manufacturing facility, is now a Superfund site. Vacuum tube manufacturing is a filthy industry. The getter flash that leaves silver residue on the top of tubes is usually composed of an aluminum-barium mix, which is pretty nasty stuff.

The reality is that we are rapidly approaching a day when vacuum tubes will be a conversation piece. Older guitarists remember a previous period of time when we were looking at the extinction of tube technology. The Emporium plant shipped their last tubes in 1988. During the end of the eighties through the mid-nineties, gear manufacturers were preparing for the extinction of vacuum tubes. Peavey's Transtube technology grew out of the company's preparation for the a tubeless world, and so did Marshall's Valvestate technology. Most of the rack gear in the late eighties through the grunge period in the nineties was solid-state. Even PRS acknowledged that tube technology was in trouble with the introduction of the Harmonic Generator. Solid-state is not inherently inferior to tube technology. If it had not been for communists countries holding on to tube technology because of it superior resistance to EMP, we would not even be talking about losing it again. The fall of the Berlin Wall breathed new life into tube audio and guitar amps. Backlash from the over indulgences of hair metal lead to people moving back to more primitive sounds and gear. However, when it comes to high-gain old school metal and metal as a whole, well-executed solid-state designs are superior to tube-type designs. It is easier to design a low-noise, high-gain preamp using solid-state electronics than tube-type electronics. The problem lies with musicians expecting solid-state amps to be budget amps. That mindset limits the production of high-end solid-state guitar amps. Well-done solid-state amps have more complex circuitry than tube-type amps. The combination of a clean analog solid-state preamp feeding a DSP via an ADC, which in turn, feeds an DAC and then a linear amplifier is not only producing realistic approximations of old sounds, it is opening up new sounds to guitarists.

Great post as always!

I also believe that instead of tube shortage we should be worry more of passive components soon-to-be shortage. Acrol just stopped making Carbon Comp resistors and I see others to follow. True Hole technology is dying and I see in no time all passive and active components being SMD.

Major transformer plants are narrowing production too with recent shock of Magnetic Components shutting doors (supplier of OTs and PT's to majority of brands as well as DIYers). Mesa switching back to Schumacher is probably one of reasons for such a delays

 

[László]

I'm an NOS tube buyer, for the most part. My experience with new tubes has been dreadful, in terms of both tone and longevity.

However, there are exceptions., and among them is JJ. I also had good luck with the Russian tubes that are branded and were copied from the old USA Tung-Sols, though I prefer the JJs.

JJ's new tubes are not an endangered species, and for new tubes, they seem to me to hold up and sound almost (not quite) as good as some of the more moderately priced NOS. I have a recent set of Telefunken 6L6 output tubes that are a re-brand of hand-selected JJs that were cryogenically treated. Say what you will about cryogenics being BS, but the process was invented in the steel industry to make metals stiffer for certain applications.

These Telefunkens are the only set of new tubes I've used in my 100 Watt Lone Star combo that don't rattle, and my goodness, they compete with NOS for tone. I am seriously impressed with the way this amp sounds now, though it also has all NOS RCA and GE tubes in the preamp section of the amp.

Winged C's are no longer made, so those are NOS now, and the weird thing is that they're going for vintage prices, but they're not all that great in fhe first place! In fact, I found them pretty short-lived in my amps that had them. They blew/wore out unacceptably quickly.

I have a stash of NOS Siemens and RCA tubes that may never see the inside of an amp, because, WTF, I'll probably die before I need all of them!