Upgraded my Standard 24 with a chisel

Simon Says

The Owl guy
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About 6 months ago or so I have took the Phase 1 tuners out of my 99' Standard and replaced them with Phase III's.

Since I did that in rush, on cheap with my own hands I did it badly. They are off centre, old holes poking in the eye, I'm really surpised they holding tuning alright.




For past month I was gearing up in tooling and know-how on how to correct this.

The aim of this tread is not to make definitive set of instructions how to do this but I'm hoping some of the info I have collected will be of use to some.

I'm still not sure the final approach I will take to plug the holes. I have a selection of wood dowels and some epoxy putty. I will see what takes the dye and screws better on a scrap wood.

I'm currently making the plan for a jig which I will be using to drill new holes with a proper alignment. Jig will be laser cut and all plans will be shared here.

Wish me luck
 
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First issue to overcome was the tuner plans. I have asked PRS for a datasheet or drill pattern but for 2 weeks I had no reply from Customer Support. Meanwhile - I was digging. When I was inspecting the tuners I found "PRS GOTOH" stamped on the back of the housing.




Gotoh is kind enough to provide technical data on their website. To make sure the hole spacing is correct - especially in relation to the centre post I have ordered C-A-R-D 3/3 spacers for SD90 line (only a couple of quid)




And I was pleased to confirm the hole pattern / centre post relation is spot on on Phase 3 to SD90 spacers.




So I can use the datasheet to make the plans!




Side note - if you don't like Phase III's for whatever reason - the hole pattern is same as SD90 Kluson style
 
First step.

I need to plug old Phase 1 holes as well as the ones I already drilled. To do this I will experiment on a testing piece of Sapele wood with Sapele dowels.

To do this I really wanted to get dowels not much bigger in diameter than the holes plugged with them. I have searched everywhere and the smallest diameter of anything remotely similar to Mahagony I was able to locate was 6mm dowels from ebay.

There is no way I gonna re-drill headstock with 6mm holes to fit the dowels in. Colour matching will be much more difficult to archive IMO as the dowels are cut the way that grain is not going diagonal with the headstock wood. Smaller plug = better chance for less visible repair.

I have some 3mm light hardwood dowels too but I don't think I gonna use or test them as long as the cone shaping and epoxy gluing (gorilla glue gel in this case) will take drilling and hold screws alright.

Progress pictures.

Note: I'm trying three hole diameters (2.5mm, 3mm, 3.5mm) to see with how much I can get away using larger plugs

I will let this to dry overnight. More tomorrow







 
No jig necessary. Install the bushings, then insert the tuner bodies. Align a straightedge along the top of two adjacent tuners. I use two small clamps for a secure grip. That will force the tuners parallel to each and perpendicular to the neck. Mark your bottom holes, drill, then to top holes. Do the bottom two tuners, then muddle, then top.

PRS countersinks the front and back of the pegholes. A very slight amount on the front, deeper on the back. See photos. They say it is to ensure metal-on-wood contact for tone transfer. They also eliminate any finish in the holes.

Here are pictures of the countersink…
[url=https://postimg.cc/p9RYfYNq][/URL]

[url=https://postimg.cc/K4HN6ML8]
free image uploader



best image hosting[/URL]
http://[url=https://postimg.cc/p9RY...6-41-F0-80-EA-1-CDBE21-A162-C.jpg[/img][/url]
StewMac sells the countersink bit in their store and on Amazon. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-too...-installation/no-chip-tuner-hole-countersink/

Watch video and you’ll see how they do it during assembly: Start watching at the 0:59 mark…
P9RZtWN
 
Cool.

Note headstocks have changed slightly over the years. At least 2-3 times. Likely due to design changes and tooling changes over time. The current rosewood veneer headstocks aren’t the same width as my mid-2000s CEs and Custom 24. The 2005 CE differs from the 2005 24. I learned that when trying to build my own templates some time back.
 
No jig necessary. Install the bushings, then insert the tuner bodies. Align a straightedge along the top of two adjacent tuners. I use two small clamps for a secure grip. That will force the tuners parallel to each and perpendicular to the neck. Mark your bottom holes, drill, then to top holes. Do the bottom two tuners, then muddle, then top.

PRS countersinks the front and back of the pegholes. A very slight amount on the front, deeper on the back. See photos. They say it is to ensure metal-on-wood contact for tone transfer. They also eliminate any finish in the holes.

Here are pictures of the countersink…

http://[url=https://postimg.cc/p9RY...6-41-F0-80-EA-1-CDBE21-A162-C.jpg[/img][/url]
free image uploader
http://[url=https://postimg.cc/p9RY...6-41-F0-80-EA-1-CDBE21-A162-C.jpg[/img][/url]

http://[url=https://postimg.cc/p9RY...6-41-F0-80-EA-1-CDBE21-A162-C.jpg[/img][/url]
best image hosting
StewMac sells the countersink bit in their store and on Amazon. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-too...-installation/no-chip-tuner-hole-countersink/

Watch video and you’ll see how they do it during assembly: Start watching at the 0:59 mark…
P9RZtWN

This is all good tips, especially shaving the edges of the tuner.

I'm still going to use the jig, mainly as it will cost me nothing (£1 material and a bit of time in CAD)

Here's the first drawing. I will do a set of 3 for each pair of tuners. I was going to do a full template with all 6 on a PRS headstock shaped jig but I don't think Paul would like that. Besides it would be a pain to do the measurements right.

This way its a breeze to make it





Complete CAD files once it's tested
 
Cool.

Note headstocks have changed slightly over the years. At least 2-3 times. Likely due to design changes and tooling changes over time. The current rosewood veneer headstocks aren’t the same width as my mid-2000s CEs and Custom 24. The 2005 CE differs from the 2005 24. I learned that when trying to build my own templates some time back.

I'm sorry I have resubmitted the post after you answered. Had an error there and I couldn't edit for whatever reason

Another good tip. I will do extra measuring then and report back
 
Cool.

Note headstocks have changed slightly over the years. At least 2-3 times. Likely due to design changes and tooling changes over time. The current rosewood veneer headstocks aren’t the same width as my mid-2000s CEs and Custom 24. The 2005 CE differs from the 2005 24. I learned that when trying to build my own templates some time back.

Alright. Just measured this and that on both my guitars and as much the shape may be different the post intervals centre to centre are the same on 1999 Standard 24 and 2021 Custom 24.

I started feeling worried as all measurements for the jig I took of my Custom and then I realised it took me only 20 minutes to do that :D
 
The SD-90 spacing being the same as the PRS tuners is not a surprise. Gotoh makes PRS tuners.

It's great you found the center-on-center measurements are consistent. I didn't have a tool to make precise center-on-center measurements of the pegholes. When I retrofitted four older PRS to Phase 3s, I started with pencil-rubbings of the headstocks, to compare screwholes, outside dimensions, etc. No two patterns were exactly alike. Now that you determined the six-hole pattern is identical, you can build a jig secures to two pegholes via two 10mm dowels. With that six-jig, the overall headstock dimensions would no longer matter. Nice.

BTW, I have bought and tried StewMac's tuner jig. I returned it. Gotoh, PRS, and many other tuners require extremely small bits for pilot holes. The holes in the jig were larger than the drill bits, which allowed them to rock and drift. I do recommend StewMac's Depth-Stop Drill Bit Kit - perfect bit sizes, the spacers work well, and are and color-coded. You'll need the 1/16 (.063" / 1.59mm) bit for the #2 screws on PRS and Gotoh tuners. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/drill-bits/depth-stop-drill-bits/
 
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The SD-90 spacing being the same as the PRS tuners is not a surprise. Gotoh makes PRS tuners.

It's great you found the center-on-center measurements are consistent. I didn't have a tool to make precise center-on-center measurements of the pegholes. When I retrofitted four older PRS to Phase 3s, I started with pencil-rubbings of the headstocks, to compare screwholes, outside dimensions, etc. No two patterns were exactly alike. Now that you determined the six-hole pattern is identical, you can build a jig secures to two pegholes via two 10mm dowels. With that six-jig, the overall headstock dimensions would no longer matter. Nice.

BTW, I have bought and tried StewMac's tuner jig. I returned it. Gotoh, PRS, and many other tuners require extremely small bits for pilot holes. The holes in the jig were larger than the drill bits, which allowed them to rock and drift. I do recommend StewMac's Depth-Stop Drill Bit Kit - perfect bit sizes, the spacers work well, and are and color-coded. You'll need the 1/16 (.063" / 1.59mm) bit for the #2 screws on PRS and Gotoh tuners. https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/drill-bits/depth-stop-drill-bits/

Yeah, one of the pictures in my first post shows the tuner with both Gotoh and PRS stamping.

I was thinking to get Depth-Stop drill bit as you suggested. I will add this to the Stewmac shopping list. It may be a while before I get them, tho. Last thing I want is to go over the headstock lol. For the jig I specified the tuner mounting hole diameter as 1.5mm. I will redo it to 1.59mm then.
 
The 1.59mm is the smallest drill bit in the set. BTW, you can buy them individually. It's a bummer their shipping is so expensive. No one else really has a similarly useful drill bit assortment. I keep them in a re-purposed prescription bottle for storage.
 
if you need custom sized dowels, you make a dowel die from taking a bit of mild steel and drilling the corresponding sized hole through it, making sure NOT to clean up the bur that usually results from the process.

Then take a bit of wood, generally with a square profile that's just a bit larger than the hole and pressing it through. This can also be accomplished by attaching it to a drill and screwing it through.

This is probably a terrible explanation, but if you look for examples of making your own dowels on Youtube, it should't be too tough to find some examples!
 
The 1.59mm is the smallest drill bit in the set. BTW, you can buy them individually. It's a bummer their shipping is so expensive. No one else really has a similarly useful drill bit assortment. I keep them in a re-purposed prescription bottle for storage.

Aw you tell me. Shipping to England is nuts. I also have a little stash of Stewmac tools and they have a special box in my guitar parts shelf not like them other pheasants in a plastic box under the bed
 
if you need custom sized dowels, you make a dowel die from taking a bit of mild steel and drilling the corresponding sized hole through it, making sure NOT to clean up the bur that usually results from the process.

Then take a bit of wood, generally with a square profile that's just a bit larger than the hole and pressing it through. This can also be accomplished by attaching it to a drill and screwing it through.

This is probably a terrible explanation, but if you look for examples of making your own dowels on Youtube, it should't be too tough to find some examples!

There's everything on Youtube, isn't it. That tip would save me a lot of time when I was googling dowels a couple of weeks ago. I think I got it now and will be ok with the ones I bought.

Here's results from the last night:



The three plugs in the middle done with sapele and I'm generally happy with them. I learned this and that, like - I should go easy with glue. I will have to figure out a way to keep the headstock protected from it. I already have some ideas which I will be testing soon.

Another problem - when I'm shaving the excess with a chisel, somehow I still manage to break the dowel which leaves recessed spot in the middle. I either need to take it slower, get a sharper chisel or to do the combination of both. I will be practicing more today.

On the upper left side of the photo is the 3mm light wood dowel with a bit of stain. No cone shaping with this guy, 3mm diameter, went 6mm in. Shaved with no breakage. Has better diagonal look than Sapele and I'm really tempted to use that for everything. I believe once dye'd I wouldn't be able to tell difference
 
Not much updates since the last time other than double checking dimensions and experimenting with dowels.

I gonna go with the light coloured wooden 3mm dowels as they are plain grain-wise and I can match them better to the wood with some brushed on lines with darker dye.

The cone styled plugging would work to aesthetically cover the holes but I don't believe they are way to go with redrilling for a new holes. 3mm straight dowels took the drill like a champ where the coned ones didn't.

So with that off my way I have moved to the dyes. As I said earlier the potato cheap ones from Amazon are crap. I had some Rit fabric dye at home and I believe this is the stuff I gonna go with. They are still cheap enough with prices between 5-10 quid. Coverage and concentration is amazing now I only need to match the colour better. I have a scarlet red here and contemplating what other colours to order. Since the back of my Std is orange / red I will go with more traditional red colour and something yellowish to match the finish on the guitar. Also dark brown or black to brush on the wood grain

Until we meet again...
 
Fun fact - sharing two hole interval with relation to the centre post of the tuner is... against company policy, according to PRS customer support.

I'm glad I did my homework. Still can't shake off disappointment in customer support, tho
 
Just bumping my old thread as there was a bit of development.

I didn't use the wood dowels in the end. I have used Howard wood crayons


A mahogany and cherry coloured - I have ended up with mahogany in the end as it gives a better mach.

The job is far from perfect and not done yet, but I'm happy with the result. You really have to look for the repair to notice it. I may get the Stewmac Touch-Up pen to finish the job with a bit of fine sanding and buffing at some point. I hope the touch-up pen will help to gain enough coat buildup to help with old tuner inprint

Pictures:



 
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