overdrive a tube amp

Kyle North

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Oct 12, 2020
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Hi there! Maybe stupid question, but I'm beginner
Every fashionable overdrive reviewed on the internet is praised for having a sound like overdrive a tube amp. So why not just turn up the gain and turn down th the master volume ? Two flicks of the wrist and your sound will be, err, exactly like an overdriven tube amp.
 
Hi there! Maybe stupid question, but I'm beginner
Every fashionable overdrive reviewed on the internet is praised for having a sound like overdrive a tube amp. So why not just turn up the gain and turn down th the master volume ? Two flicks of the wrist and your sound will be, err, exactly like an overdriven tube amp.

Calling @LSchefman @RickP and others To the courtesy phone, who will ultimately explain this better than I can.
 
Because :
1- not all amps have enough gain to push into overdrive
2- You may want overdrive on your rhythm tone and need "more" for solos
3- The overdrive of your amp may not be the exact character of OD that you want.
4- etc. etc.
 
Hi there! Maybe stupid question, but I'm beginner
Every fashionable overdrive reviewed on the internet is praised for having a sound like overdrive a tube amp. So why not just turn up the gain and turn down th the master volume ? Two flicks of the wrist and your sound will be, err, exactly like an overdriven tube amp.
Yes and no... like most things.

There is a difference between distortion and overdrive. And there is a difference between getting overdrive from a preamp tube and a power amp tube. All of these are useful, but they don’t all sound the same.

The idea of an overdrive, at its most basic purpose, is to take an amp being driven to its clean power limit (or something edgy in that area), and push it past what it can process without distorting. Drive plus more drive=overdriving the power section into distortion. It sounds full, throaty, and authoritative. It’s also incredibly loud. Enter the master volume...

Turning down the master and raising the gains on an amp also creates a sort of overdrive/distortion, but by overloading the preamp section, or cascading one gain into another. This more sizzling, searing distortion has a character of it’s own.

Pedals can also introduce their own overdrive and/or distortion character, that can be used alone or in combination with either or both of the examples above.

In the end, the reason there are options is because there once was just clean amp tone, and people discovered ways to enhance that... and several of the ways work well so there is no “one right way.” Even the crappy sounding distortion methods ended up on hit records that people enjoyed. My advice to you is to find what you love and make music with it. Leave the rest to others. It makes for variety, discovery, and new inventions when someone ends up wanting something new. It’s a great time to be a musician!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, @Alnus Rubra :)
 
And they can be used as a clean boost on an overdriven amp to tighten things up.
These settings are a good place to start for that technique -
Drive 0%
Tone 50%
Level 100%

There is no right or wrong. Just trust your ears.
 
For a guy who has one more thing to add, I sure talk a lot. :rolleyes:

But I wanted to add this. When I discuss how often people love the sound of the PI tube and stage being overdriven, and think it's the power stage being overdriven, think about this. If you want a little further evidence to support this... why do you think so many high end amp builders push their "post phase inverter master controls?" Why do those often sound SO good? Because you get all the PI overdrive and THEN cut the level to the power stage. The power stage is running clean, yet you're getting the tones you love. This is often more than good enough to satisfy many people, and they are getting the tones they love at lower volumes. But it's not actually overdriving the power stage, but you can push the PI hard.

Yes, overdriving the power stage is a thing too, but many times the part people love, want, and with PPIVM can get at lower volumes, is the PI stage clipping and the power stage running clean. It's one of the most popular mods on older Marshall circuits for that reason. One of my buddies has an old JCM800 half stack that he bought new in the 70s (?). He had this mod done years ago when he quit playing bars, and said it's the only way he was able to keep his Marshall because he could never turn it up to 2 at home and it didn't sound good until 4. He had a post PI master volume installed and now can at least play it at home every once in a while. LOL
 
OP - I agree! I do not use a pedal at all. If I cant get THE TONE from my amp - its the wrong amp.

Perhaps if I were in a band that covered a wide range of things I may think differently. I set my gain relatively high and use my volume knob to change my volume tone and character of my tone. I use to be a pedal guy.
 
If you are just starting out, there are two ways you can go. But a good clean toned tube amp and try various pedals to see what type of voicings you like, or, buy multiple tube amps to see what voicings you like. Although pedals can be an overwhelming rabbit hole if you let them, it's a much cheaper way to try out different tones. In fact, one good clean amp and 3-4 good pedals can give you the tones of 3-4 good amps, almost as good as the original. If you're lucky, you find a couple you love and stop.

That's how I stated, even though I always KNEW I loved a higher gain Marshall type tone better than anything else. I went through TONS of pedals with my Classic 30, then Egnater Tweaker. I finally decided to buy a Budda Superdrive 18, and my amp journey was off and running. I went through a bunch of amps and got on a big Mesa kick for a few years. I've settled now on an Archon and a Bogner ATMA and I've never been happier with my amp tones. While I won't rule out another one at some point, I could easily sit tight on just these two. But unlike some, I still want some pedals. Two weeks ago I spent at least 10 days chasing Dumble type tones with both of those amps and my Zen Drive, (inspired by the incredible tones Tag is posting at TGP of the Louis Electric Cobra). But after taking a few days where I couldn't even play, I've taken the last couple days trying to push the Bogner into VH type tones. The Bogner tone is less bright, and more bottom heavy than VH. Last night I found my best solution so far was the Timmy with a bass cut and treble boost, into the 80s channel of the ATMA.

A few weeks before that, I was on the 70s channel with a fuzz pedal and vibe in front, trying for some 70s tones. It's a journey. And if you like many tones/players, it will have various paths and endings.
 
This is a really interesting discussion, OP! Rick, Distort and DTR make great points.

On a personal note, as per your initial question I tend to bypass overdrives on my pedalboard most of the time, and use the amp's inherent distortion.

However, there are times when I want the tone color an overdrive adds to a signal - each overdrive not only distorts, it adds a certain character, frequency response/emphasis, harmonics, compression, and other attributes.

Certain pedals also remove unwanted tone from a signal, for example, some have bass and treble roll-off switches that are useful in certain situations, etc.

Point is, overdrives are another tool in the tone toolbox, and each one suits a variety of purposes. There really aren't any right or wrong answers to this question. I'd also suggest that overdrives should be matched to the amp; some sound great with certain types of amps and not others. On the other hand, some are so adjustable that they work with most amps (there are some pretty interesting options out there for folks to like to tweak their tone to the max).
 
To add to what @Rick P has already said, sometimes the best way to learn correctly is to learn how to play cleanly (e.g. hear each note clearly without fret buzz unless intentionally muted as such).

There are numerous amps which sport cascading preamp channels which increase the level of overdrive or distortion (distortion is actually described in layman's terms as overdrive pushed further which becomes distortion).

If perhaps you'd like to learn from the best examples of how overdrive is used, listen to either Larry Carlton or Robben Ford's releases. Both use high quality amps that capture overdrive in its most discerning forms.

In one of Larry's instructional videos, Larry describes how he utilizes overdrive as tube saturation just at or slightly beyond the point of "break-up." The key is to turn your guitar volume to about 5, ands increase your amp's volume knob to about 3 -½ or 4. Your amp's master volume should be so that it won't disturb the neighbors or housemates.

At 3-½ or 4 your ears should hear where the amp begins to sing like classical stringed instruments might sound. If the amp volume is correct, your guitar will sing like a viola or violin. This is Larry's preferred amp tone which he has used on countless songs and performances. By simply hitting the strings harder, or by slightly increasing the guitar volume, you can push this tone into further overdrive where "grittier" distorted tones exist, or by rolling back on your guitar volume, "clean up the tone" for quieter clean tones.

However, if perhaps you are younger, you may feel the need to use overdrive and distortion freely. (Let it be known that distortion covers a multitude of playing errors by masking misplayed notes or chords. Also let it be known that the most experienced guitarists learn how to play their notes cleanly and then embellish their tone with overdrive and distortion after-the-fact.)

In time, you'll know what to listen for in amps; the EQ response, the dynamics, the warmth vs brightness. You'll know what tubes produce what type of tone, you'll also know what type of speakers produce what types of tone. And lastly, you'll find that you'll likely never quite be satisfied for any great length of time with one particular amp or tone. As you grow older, your music tastes will also change over time.

For example, when I was 17 years old, I thought the massive tone of Pete Townshend's SG through a HiWatt amp on "Live at Leeds" cranked through my the stereo was THE tone. As time went on, my choice of tone changed as well. I became more docile. :D I currently use a modeling device (HeadRush Gigboard) and stereo FRFR108 powered speakers for its versatility, adaptability, and range of amp tones. Not to say that my youth was not a lot of negative emotions bubbling over on a hot stove. (In reality, yes, this) What I learned was how to use self-control in a way made me a stronger individual. It also helped me find peace within myself.

Anyway, my hope is that like many others who have come before you, you will also join us on your personal journey of growing and learning, your personal journey of discovery of what choices and steps you can take that will result in good things for you.

Because amp and effect choices are widely subjective, my only advice is, be open to listen to new tones and concepts. Ultimately, your ears will decide for you what you like and what you don't. And since there is a lot being offered of what we don't like, it makes sense to be discerning so you'll know what you will like, versus just accepting mediocre tone you'll not enjoy for a length of time. Enjoy the ride, but know when to settle down on what you've found that you like.
 
I'll add just a little to the already great comments in here. I'm approaching this from an amp tech perspective (my hobby vocation for the last 20 years in keeping my electronic engineering skills fresh).

Looking at a basic amp with total tube path (no processing onboard, etc.), many are capable of full power tube distortion, but not all sound great. My old 1972 Orange 120 watt head (no master) was sterile clean until you slammed the output tubes. And, if you did that, it was deafening in that proximity so a power soak (attenuator) will let you achieve that with no ear pain. But, the tone was amazing. EL34's clip load...butt, EL84's will clip early!

Now, the PPIMV (mentioned above) is a completely reversible mod to most vintage amps without damaging any value if you avoid drilling holes. But, the clipping, even at the phase inverter, is a bit different. But, maybe what you like?

But, other factors come into play. What pickups do you use? What speakers (and cabs) do you use? The speakers at lower volume won't push the same air volume and that will take a way from a full amp push experience somewhat.

So, a pedal, my opinion...and with the right one for you, gives you the ability to set your ultimate clean-to-mild breakup of your amp and then set the pedal to get more gain, but still tweak it's settings to compensate for other losses (speaker efficiency, etc.) I also feel a great pedal is the way to go for one more reason vs. a power attenuator....saving the output tube life (and transformers, etc., etc.)

Only for myself, I like a good 50 watt amp with straight tube path and a little top end sparkle like a vox or fender. Then, I pop a Strymon Riverside on the front end and it (with it's memory setting), gives me a 3 channel amp for a gig. Clean (bypassed), crunch (first button push), high gain (2nd button to access the preset).

With that style scenario, I cover every tone ground I need. Plus, all I really need is a cheap reliable backup amp (and, for me, that's an old Peavey Studio Prro 40 I paid a whopping 60 US for!).

Again, the pedal chosen is a personal search...lots of choices. But, should you take the path of attenuators or pushing the output of any tube amp to an extreme...you'll want to be on a weekly texting communication with a local amp tech. And, have a stash of dollars for some repairs. I'm in this SW Ohio region parked between Cincinnati & Dayton and I've performed a lot of repairs/mods on every Marshall, Z, PRS, Vox, Orange, Fender...from every decade made. It's been some nice cash for me. But, I love seeing folks come in with healthy amps just needing a tube replace and bias check/adjust...quick for me...cheapo for you.
 
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