Northern lights fading

[Bsic]

Last year, I ordered a Private Stock with a "Northern Lights Blue" finish but I was recently told that they had cancelled and would no longer do that color as it fades. So, back to square one for me.

So, is the aqua violet finish not as prone to fading? Anyone know? I have one en route to me with this color and will be hanging on a wall in a room with no windows

 

[GuitarJammin]

So, is the aqua violet finish not as prone to fading? Anyone know? I have one en route to me with this color and will be hanging on a wall in a room with no windows

Yes it can be prone to fading. Make sure you have LED lighting in place and you'll be A-OK!
Exposure to sunlight...especially from an outdoor gig will definitely see a change.

I have a 2010 blue fade that hasn't faded a bit...and I also now have an 08 Santana aquamarine burst and both look the same way they did new.

PRS guitars will NOT fade with proper care.

 

[Bsic]

yep lights are led

Even one outdoor gig in direct light can fade these that quickly?? Jees!

 

[DISTORT6]

yep lights are led

Even one outdoor gig in direct light can fade these that quickly?? Jees!

Suntan lotion.

 

[JasonE]

I wouldn't want to spend that amount of money on something that is going to fade that much in 3 years. I would definitely choose a different finish. I would think that PRS wouldn't want to see the finish change that much in 3 years either. If you haven't asked them yet, I would see what they say. They may help out with the cost of a refinish, especially on a very high end guitar.

 

[László]

yep lights are led

Even one outdoor gig in direct light can fade these that quickly?? Jees!

Re: LEDs vs filament bulbs...Photosensitivity is a chemical reaction where the chemicals react to light. Not just sunlight. Any light.

Photosensitivity is the thing that causes plants to grow, and causes certain pigments to fade. The very same chemical processes are involved. And LEDs emit photons just like any other light source.

Plants grow just fine under LED lighting, and in fact, you can buy higher intensity LED "Grow Lights" for plants.

Now, it's true that LEDs emit much less in the ultraviolet light spectrum, and that's a significant culprit in fading, but eventually, if you leave the guitar out and it's dyed with photosensitive pigments, it's simply gonna fade eventually.

If you want to slow that process down, don't hang a guitar on the wall when you're not playing it. If keeping your guitar out is your thing, don't worry about the fading.

Hanging a guitar on a wall is less desirable for plenty of other reasons: cooking oils float in the air of a house, gum up the pots and attract dust, making the pots scratchy; humidity swings that happen every single day from hour to hour in a house aren't buffered by the case, so you get the results of everything that can do (and wood absorbing humidity and releasing it causes the wood to expand and contract, so finishes are affected (that's one reason nitro cracks); the hardware is more prone to tarnish and the screws rust. The higher you hang an instrument on a wall, the drier it is, unless you're in a basement, where there are other problems with humidity. (typically basements are substantially more humid than upstairs).

There's lots going on.

I know I'm a PITA and go on and on about this forever, but...it's all true.

 

[László]

I wouldn't want to spend that amount of money on something that is going to fade that much in 3 years. I would definitely choose a different finish. I would think that PRS wouldn't want to see the finish change that much in 3 years either. If you haven't asked them yet, I would see what they say. They may help out with the cost of a refinish, especially on a very high end guitar.

My 20th Anniversary of Private Stock model from 6 1/2 years ago in Northern Lights hasn't faded that I can see. But I case the guitar when it's not being played, so maybe I'm an outlier. I have a year-old Special Semi Hollow in blue with a purple smoke burst that also hasn't faded. I keep them all cased. In fact, none of mine have ever faded that I've been able to see, and I've had PRSes in all the color families for 31 years.

The devil is in one detail: people hang em on walls, I don't.

Nonetheless, if you're concerned about fading, buy a brown guitar. They're the least prone to fading, however if they were to fade, it'd go better with the wood's natural brown tones, which other colors don't do as well.

 

[JasonE]

My 20th Anniversary of Private Stock model from 6 1/2 years ago in Northern Lights hasn't faded that I can see. But I case the guitar when it's not being played, so maybe I'm an outlier. I have a year-old Special Semi Hollow in blue with a purple smoke burst that also hasn't faded. I keep them all cased. In fact, none of mine have ever faded that I've been able to see, and I've had PRSes in all the color families for 31 years.

The devil is in one detail: people hang em on walls, I don't.

Nonetheless, if you're concerned about fading, buy a brown guitar. They're the least prone to fading, however if they were to fade, it'd go better with the wood's natural brown tones, which other colors don't do as well.

I don't think I have had any of mine fade either. I have played outdoor gigs with them and do hang some on the wall but they are not close to any windows. The sun never hits them or even gets close to them. I have covered them with a white towel when outside if they are in the direct sun. I don't like them getting heated up from the direct sunlight. I do store them in the case most of the time. I have a couple that were known to fade but mine have held up.

 

[László]

I don't think I have had any of mine fade either. I have played outdoor gigs with them and do hang some on the wall but they are not close to any windows. The sun never hits them or even gets close to them. I have covered them with a white towel when outside if they are in the direct sun. I don't like them getting heated up from the direct sunlight. I do store them in the case most of the time. I have a couple that were known to fade but mine have held up.

Seems to me you're in great shape with your guitars!

 

[TrashPanda]

I came close to pulling the trigger on this pre-owned 2019 PRS Private Stock Semi-Hollow Norther Lights for sale at CME. I noticed that that the finish was more purple and lacked the blue, teal, and green hues that I was used to seeing in photos of other NL PRS guitars, which ultimately led me to discovering this thread. After reading through this thread, I was suspicious that the CME NL PRS had faded, despite them not noting the issue on their website and Reverb listings (they’ve since updated their listings to indicate the fading issue).

I asked my CME sales rep for photos of the finish with the pickup rings lifted, which he provided (see below). You can clearly see how much the finish has faded on the exposed parts compared to the areas that were covered. I asked CME to contact their PRS rep to see if it were possible to have the guitar refinished based on the success stories from this thread where they provided a refinish. CME sent me the following response that they received back from PRS:

“There was a batch of Northern Lights that faded and we did refinish them. The other ones did not and have been out in the field long enough so
we are not offering refinishing on those. To avoid future problems with that stain we have discontinued that color. So if you have a good one that
has zero fading I would tell your customer to go for it! This was an isolated issue. Hope that helps, Mike Robb, Regional Sales Manager Central-East, Paul Reed Smith Guitars”

I was surprised and disappointed at PRS’ response. Suggesting that this fading issue was limited to a single batch of Northern Lights and the others hadn’t been in the field long enough to warrant a refinish, but then goes on to say that PRS discontinued the NL color to avoid future problems with the stain. CME was not offering to have the guitar refinished or make any price adjustments as a consolation, which even though I was disappointed, they aren’t obligated to and can run their business however they choose to do so. Therefore, I made the decision that this particular guitar was the right purchase for me and was ready to move on to something else. My only request to CME, which they eventually obliged, was to update their listings of this guitar with a note about the organic dyes fading.

I’m just curious if there are other avenues to pursue with PRS to have this guitar refinished. I understand that it will still be prone to fading, but I understand the need to keep these guitars cased when not in use and out of direct UV light. I find it odd that PRS has acknowledged the fading issue and refinished some of the NL guitars at no cost to the customer, but are taking the position that the rest of them haven’t been around long enough to eatablish there’s an issue warranting a refinish. Perhaps I’m making too big of a deal out of this but for a >$10,000 Private Stock PRS, I want it to have the Northern Lights finish that it had when it left the factory.

PRS Private Stock Special 22 Semi-Hollow Northern Lights 2019

The following specs were carefully collected and recorded by a skilled technician. For a more detailed description and questions regarding sound, feel, or cosmetic condition, please call to speak to one of our experts.Please Note: The blue dye has faded on this guitar like many of this model...

www.chicagomusicexchange.com

PRS Special 22 Semi-Hollow Private Stock | Reverb

Reverb is a marketplace bringing together a wide-spanning community to buy, sell, and discuss all things music gear.

reverb.com

 

[jxe]

try a southern nights:

 

[RJK Tech]

Re: LEDs vs filament bulbs...Photosensitivity is a chemical reaction where the chemicals react to light. Not just sunlight. Any light.

Photosensitivity is the thing that causes plants to grow, and causes certain pigments to fade. The very same chemical processes are involved. And LEDs emit photons just like any other light source.

Plants grow just fine under LED lighting, and in fact, you can buy higher intensity LED "Grow Lights" for plants.

Now, it's true that LEDs emit much less in the ultraviolet light spectrum, and that's a significant culprit in fading, but eventually, if you leave the guitar out and it's dyed with photosensitive pigments, it's simply gonna fade eventually.

If you want to slow that process down, don't hang a guitar on the wall when you're not playing it. If keeping your guitar out is your thing, don't worry about the fading.

Hanging a guitar on a wall is less desirable for plenty of other reasons: cooking oils float in the air of a house, gum up the pots and attract dust, making the pots scratchy; humidity swings that happen every single day from hour to hour in a house aren't buffered by the case, so you get the results of everything that can do (and wood absorbing humidity and releasing it causes the wood to expand and contract, so finishes are affected (that's one reason nitro cracks); the hardware is more prone to tarnish and the screws rust. The higher you hang an instrument on a wall, the drier it is, unless you're in a basement, where there are other problems with humidity. (typically basements are substantially more humid than upstairs).

There's lots going on.

I know I'm a PITA and go on and on about this forever, but...it's all true.

You are right every time you mention it and glad you do.

 

[Bogner]

Odd that I never see this kind of fading on other guitar brands with similar tops.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I came close to pulling the trigger on this pre-owned 2019 PRS Private Stock Semi-Hollow Norther Lights for sale at CME. I noticed that that the finish was more purple and lacked the blue, teal, and green hues that I was used to seeing in photos of other NL PRS guitars, which ultimately led me to discovering this thread. After reading through this thread, I was suspicious that the CME NL PRS had faded, despite them not noting the issue on their website and Reverb listings (they’ve since updated their listings to indicate the fading issue).

I asked my CME sales rep for photos of the finish with the pickup rings lifted, which he provided (see below). You can clearly see how much the finish has faded on the exposed parts compared to the areas that were covered. I asked CME to contact their PRS rep to see if it were possible to have the guitar refinished based on the success stories from this thread where they provided a refinish. CME sent me the following response that they received back from PRS:

“There was a batch of Northern Lights that faded and we did refinish them. The other ones did not and have been out in the field long enough so
we are not offering refinishing on those. To avoid future problems with that stain we have discontinued that color. So if you have a good one that
has zero fading I would tell your customer to go for it! This was an isolated issue. Hope that helps, Mike Robb, Regional Sales Manager Central-East, Paul Reed Smith Guitars”

I was surprised and disappointed at PRS’ response. Suggesting that this fading issue was limited to a single batch of Northern Lights and the others hadn’t been in the field long enough to warrant a refinish, but then goes on to say that PRS discontinued the NL color to avoid future problems with the stain. CME was not offering to have the guitar refinished or make any price adjustments as a consolation, which even though I was disappointed, they aren’t obligated to and can run their business however they choose to do so. Therefore, I made the decision that this particular guitar was the right purchase for me and was ready to move on to something else. My only request to CME, which they eventually obliged, was to update their listings of this guitar with a note about the organic dyes fading.

I’m just curious if there are other avenues to pursue with PRS to have this guitar refinished. I understand that it will still be prone to fading, but I understand the need to keep these guitars cased when not in use and out of direct UV light. I find it odd that PRS has acknowledged the fading issue and refinished some of the NL guitars at no cost to the customer, but are taking the position that the rest of them haven’t been around long enough to eatablish there’s an issue warranting a refinish. Perhaps I’m making too big of a deal out of this but for a >$10,000 Private Stock PRS, I want it to have the Northern Lights finish that it had when it left the factory.

PRS Private Stock Special 22 Semi-Hollow Northern Lights 2019

The following specs were carefully collected and recorded by a skilled technician. For a more detailed description and questions regarding sound, feel, or cosmetic condition, please call to speak to one of our experts.Please Note: The blue dye has faded on this guitar like many of this model...

www.chicagomusicexchange.com

PRS Special 22 Semi-Hollow Private Stock | Reverb

Reverb is a marketplace bringing together a wide-spanning community to buy, sell, and discuss all things music gear.

reverb.com

I dunno.. PRS has cut and run from NL. That makes an unfaded one a collector’s dream. So what?

PRS Crackle and Multifoil guitars flake, Gibson’s white guitars and binding yellow, blue fenders turn green, stains fade, finishes fall off Hamers and PRS… how long are companies required to fix s**t under warranty is kinda up to them.

They (PRS) discontinued the color because it’s a liability. I might want Joycenie to fix this cool set of Lawn Jarts on eBay, but they’d just give me plastic tipped ones.

Such is the collector’s life.

 

[Bogner]

I dunno.. PRS has cut and run from NL. That makes an unfaded one a collector’s dream. So what?

PRS Crackle and Multifoil guitars flake, Gibson’s white guitars and binding yellow, blue fenders turn green, stains fade, finishes fall off Hamers and PRS… how long are companies required to fix s**t under warranty is kinda up to them.

They (PRS) discontinued the color because it’s a liability. I might want Joycenie to fix this cool set of Lawn Jarts on eBay, but they’d just give me plastic tipped ones.

Such is the collector’s life.

Yeah but Northern Lights isn't the only color that has issues. That is a problem that needs to be addressed and resolved in fairness to the customer. I would be absolutely livid if I bought a new guitar and the finish did that. I have yet to see this problem with other guitar companies. The same could be said for when PRS first started shooting nitro. I have some guitars with sub par nitro finishing.

 

[TrashPanda]

I dunno.. PRS has cut and run from NL. That makes an unfaded one a collector’s dream. So what?

PRS Crackle and Multifoil guitars flake, Gibson’s white guitars and binding yellow, blue fenders turn green, stains fade, finishes fall off Hamers and PRS… how long are companies required to fix s**t under warranty is kinda up to them.

They (PRS) discontinued the color because it’s a liability. I might want Joycenie to fix this cool set of Lawn Jarts on eBay, but they’d just give me plastic tipped ones.

Such is the collector’s life.

I’m not arguing whether or not PRS should cover fading under warranty, but I do think they should be consistent with what they decide. Why are they acknowledging the issue and offering to refinish some guitars for customers but not others? Specifically, the one I was contemplating shows almost identical fading to OP’s guitar, and he was able to get his refinished under warranty.

 

[László]

Yeah but Northern Lights isn't the only color that has issues. That is a problem that needs to be addressed and resolved in fairness to the customer. I would be absolutely livid if I bought a new guitar and the finish did that. I have yet to see this problem with other guitar companies. The same could be said for when PRS first started shooting nitro. I have some guitars with sub par nitro finishing.

Your experience differs from mine, but that doesn't mean you're wrong - it's merely different experience.

Re: nitro...I bought my first nitro PRS, a Tonare Grand acoustic, in 2012. Perfect. Never faded. I ordered my second nitro PRS (an Acoustic PS) in 2013. Finish is perfect, no issues. Bought my third nitro PS in 2014. Finish is still perfect, no issues. I can say the same about my 2015 and 2016 PS models (the 2016 is a lovely, unfaded, Northern Lights). And my 2020 McCarty, same for the 2021 Special.

All these are nitro, all are perfect, no finish issues, no cracking, no flaking, no fading. Nothing but joy-joy and other expressions of guitar happiness.

Re: fading...The only way to get transclucent stains is to use organic pigments. Organic pigments are light-sensitive, much more so than inorganic pigments. But inorganic pigments aren't translucent. You want to see the wood, there aren't alternatives.

Just the way it is.

I think I've had 35 or 36 PRS Guitars over the years, all stained in a whole lotta colors going back to 1991. None of them faded. Not one.

Why? I've always kept my guitars in their cases. Pretty simple stuff. I don't even do it to prevent fading, I do it to buffer temperature and humidity changes, and prevent dust and goop from clogging up the electronics and hardware. Not fading is a side bonus.

As to other finish issues, a couple of the poly finished ones in the early '00s had some flaking at the edge of the fretboard, and PRS fixed them. End of issues. I have had zero issues with the nitro, and my guitars have all been perfectly sprayed.

I can only speak from my own experience, but it's been a pretty large number of PRS Guitars, and they've done well.

 

[GuitarJammin]

Really the whole summary of this story is if you are worried about fading.....Case your guitar. I do case me PS guitars when not in use...I'll display them in LED lit environment if I'm about to use them over a few days...but other than that...they get Cased...because I don't want fading.

 

[Bogner]

Your experience differs from mine, but that doesn't mean you're wrong - it's merely different experience.

Re: nitro...I bought my first nitro PRS, a Tonare Grand acoustic, in 2012. Perfect. Never faded. I ordered my second nitro PRS (an Acoustic PS) in 2013. Finish is perfect, no issues. Bought my third nitro PS in 2014. Finish is still perfect, no issues. I can say the same about my 2015 and 2016 PS models (the 2016 is a lovely, unfaded, Northern Lights). And my 2020 McCarty, same for the 2021 Special.

All these are nitro, all are perfect, no finish issues, no cracking, no flaking, no fading. Nothing but joy-joy and other expressions of guitar happiness.

Re: fading...The only way to get transclucent stains is to use organic pigments. Organic pigments are light-sensitive, much more so than inorganic pigments. But inorganic pigments aren't translucent. You want to see the wood, there aren't alternatives.

Just the way it is.

I think I've had 35 or 36 PRS Guitars over the years, all stained in a whole lotta colors going back to 1991. None of them faded. Not one.

Why? I've always kept my guitars in their cases. Pretty simple stuff. I don't even do it to prevent fading, I do it to buffer temperature and humidity changes, and prevent dust and goop from clogging up the electronics and hardware. Not fading is a side bonus.

As to other finish issues, a couple of the poly finished ones in the early '00s had some flaking at the edge of the fretboard, and PRS fixed them. End of issues. I have had zero issues with the nitro, and my guitars have all been perfectly sprayed.

I can only speak from my own experience, but it's been a pretty large number of PRS Guitars, and they've done well.

So......how can other guitar builders avoid this problem yet PRS can't? I appreciate your valiant defense of PRS and their at times finish flaws but simply explaining it away as "that is just the way it is" is simply BS. "Don't want your guitar to fade, keep it cased." That is easy to say but really doesn't address the issue. Nobody loves PRS any more than I do and if I had to guess I am roughly 3 times deeper in PRS guitar purchases over the years than yourself. My "luck" if you can call it that has been fairly good. A couple of my Modern Eagle II's finishes are rough and feel a bit clumpy and sand like on their tops. I have a couple of OG Tremonti's including my Tribal that has clouding of clear coat and what looks to be almost bubbling at and around the fretboard edges of the neck joints. I have a purple denim PS that has faded from what it was new and is almost always cased yet still faded. I don't keep my stuff in the sunlight nor do I always have my stuff out. I simply can't as i don't have enough room to do so. (I wish I did)

Why is it that all the other high end guitar companies can avoid these issues? If these companies do have issues you hear about it far less. I am not sure I recall anything ever said about finish fade with these other guitar companies by anybody anywhere that I have come across in all my years. Why is that? I currently own a lot of guitars from other companies and have for a very long time and never an issue. Not a single one.

Again, I love PRS and have been incredibly loyal to them but not so much so that I can't call it like it is when they get it wrong. These guitars cost a lot of money and should hold up all the way around. To simply say "that is the way it is" sounds dismissive and condescending to those who have had troubles....( per capita, I have been fortunate I guess so I am more so speaking for others and throwing some of my negative experience in for seasoning). YMMV

 

[shinksma]

So......how can other guitar builders avoid this problem yet PRS can't?

That's a good question, although is it true that no other manufacturer has ever had problems with any kind of color fade? That's a very broad brush to paint/stain with.

I have a few blue or partial blue PRSi, and fortunately have not yet encountered any issues with fading. I keep them hung on walls, but those walls are in a hallway with no direct sun, and very low ambient light. We don't keep the lights on very much in that hallway. So perhaps I have just the right set of environmental circumstances.

But back to the guitars that do fade: it appears PRS has had some inconsistent batches/types of blue stain over the years. Is anyone savvy enough about the available stains on the market that PRS could possibly select from, and offer some insight as to whether there is any single root cause to the issue? i.e. (making this up) all dyes made from "Blue Cobalt BR594" never fade but due to inorganic nature tends to cover up the finer details of the wood grain, but dyes made from "Blue Steel Zoolander 92" are good for wood grain but tend to fade because they are derived from the dead skin cells of Smurfs?

i.e. my Sapphire Blue McSoapy looks just as vibrant as anything else I could imagine in that dark blue stain, my SAS in Blue Matteo is still stridently blue. Why hasn't PRS simply used those dyes all along - why experiment with new dyes and seemingly not bother to find out if they are subject to fading?

Or is it a combo of the dye used and the finish put on top? Maybe some finishes contain some sort of "stabilizer" or "magic light blocker" that help keep the stain looking new, but others can cause the stain to fade when exposed to "too much light"?

So dye #123 that worked great for years is suddenly prone to fading because PRS switched to V12 for the finish. After switching away from V12 to Poly-whatever magic finish, it became stable again (unless abused by lots of sunlight).