New Amp -OR- Midpriced modelers -OR- Is anyone here (still) playing a Tonex?

[Bogner]

Close. Right between on 80. The valley is about 30 minutes north and west.

Sounds Like Fairfield/Vacaville Area...

 

[aamefford]

@Bogner and @DreamTheaterRules have asked some good questions regarding my long term goals, so I’ve been giving that some thought while I bounce from trinket to trinket in my fits of GAS. let’s do brief history and music styles I like, what I have, where I anticipate being in say 5 years, and what type of gear I envision having. I’ll try and be brief-ish.

History and music:
I’m tail end of the boomers, and retiring Jan. 2. I decided to take up guitar a couple years ago. It has not yet been a dedicated effort to learn, but I’m picking things up little at a time. I envision a combination of Justinguitar type things and live lessons once I retire. I like nice stuff, hence the S2, Santana III, little Mesa Mkv25 and the power station. I grew up on Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, George Thorogood, BB and Albert King, SRV, Kiss, Scorpions, Santana, Procol Harem, Al Dimeola, Pat Travers, Robin Trower, a bunch of Blue Grass, a bunch of southern rock… Edit - how could I forget Rush?

Current Gear:
PRS S2 Studio - a new in ‘21 unicorn, PRS ‘03 Santana III in really good condition, I love them both. The S2 is an HSS of a different flavor, the Santana is a 2 humbucker rock machine.

A Mesa Boogie Mark V 25. I like its versatility and tones. Two great clean tones, a great crunch, and a classic American gain channel. I don’t like that the two cleans share a channel with the crunch, but that can be worked around. I also don’t like that it is pretty fiddly to dial in, and doesn’t stay dialed, session to session. Some of that is likely the low volumes I try to make it work at with the power station.

Yep, a power station. Quieter, louder, line out, stand alone 50 watt tube amp. It’s amazing. Everyone should have a thing that does this stuff.

Boss BD-2 Waza, TU3, OS-2, RC-5, Electroharmonix big muff pi, sugar drive, Keeley Caverns and a UA Dream 65. I’m hot and cold with the UA and the OS-2, and I struggle with the fuzz. The rest are cool.

Kali monitors, a little Behringer mixer.

My 5 year Vision:
Ability to decently play a few blues, classic rock and 80’s hair band songs/riffs, and maybe improvise some blues lead stuff. Gear Desires - Always a tube amp, just because. It may not remain the Mkv25. A good modeler, be that modeling or profiling. I have some concern that a profiler takes 3 or 4 different profiles of the same amp per channel to cover its tones. Probably not a big deal in practice. Some kind of speaker set up that makes the modeler sound as good as it can at low volume. Maybe one more guitar, maybe not. I don’t seem to have the guitar Jones too badly.

 

[Bogner]

@Bogner and @DreamTheaterRules have asked some good questions regarding my long term goals, so I’ve been giving that some thought while I bounce from trinket to trinket in my fits of GAS. let’s do brief history and music styles I like, what I have, where I anticipate being in say 5 years, and what type of gear I envision having. I’ll try and be brief-ish.

History and music:
I’m tail end of the boomers, and retiring Jan. 2. I decided to take up guitar a couple years ago. It has not yet been a dedicated effort to learn, but I’m picking things up little at a time. I envision a combination of Justinguitar type things and live lessons once I retire. I like nice stuff, hence the S2, Santana III, little Mesa Mkv25 and the power station. I grew up on Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, George Thorogood, BB and Albert King, SRV, Kiss, Scorpions, Santana, Procol Harem, Al Dimeola, Pat Travers, Robin Trower, a bunch of Blue Grass, a bunch of southern rock… Edit - how could I forget Rush?

Current Gear:
PRS S2 Studio, a new in ‘21 unicorn, PRS ‘03 Santana III in really good condition, I love them both. The S2 is an HSS if a different flavor, the Santana is a 2 humbucker rock machine.

A Mesa Boogie Mark V 25. I like its versatility and tones. Two great clean tones, a great crunch, and a classic American gain channel. I don’t like that the two cleans share a channel with the crunch, but that can be worked around. I also don’t like that it is pretty fiddly to dial in, and doesn’t stay dialed, session to session. Some of that is likely the low volumes I try to make it work at with the power station.

Yep, a power station. Quieter, louder, line out, stand alone 50 watt tube amp. It’s amazing. Everyone should have a thing that does this stuff.

Boss BD-2 Waza, TU3, OS-2, RC-5, Electroharmonix big muff pi, sugar drive, Keeley Caverns and a UA Dream 65. I’m hot and cold with the UA and the OS-2, and I struggle with the fuzz. The rest are cool.

Kali monitors, a little Behringer mixer.

My 5 year Vision:
Ability to decently play a few blues, classic rock and 80’s hair band songs/riffs, and maybe improvise some blues lead stuff. Gear Desires - Always a tube amp, just because. It may not remain the Mkv25. A good modeler, be that modeling or profiling. I have some concern that a profiler takes 3 or 4 different profiles of the same amp per channel to cover its tones. Probably not a big deal in practice. Some kind of speaker set up that makes the modeler sound as good as it can at low volume. Maybe one more guitar, maybe not. I don’t seem to have the guitar Jones too badly.

Sounds Like You Decided On The Kemper...

 

[aamefford]

Sounds Like You Decided On The Kemper...

I’ve started looking more closely. Price is steep-ish, hardware is 10+ years old. Plus, it looks like Bender from Futurama.

More seriously, looks aren’t bad, knobs over menus are good. Is the “Liquid Profiling” or whatever it’s called released now, does it deliver on the promise of a truly adjustable profile? 10 year old hardware is fine if it does what it needs to do. If they do refresh, V1 will become a good deal used.

I haven’t decided on anything really.

 

[gilbertpsk]

@aamefford I sort of thought the same thing about Kemper. I've been considering moving towards the full modeler thing instead of lugging amps around. While I acknowledge they led the market, their hardware doesn't seem to have improved. Anyone with experience think they need to upgrade their hardware?

 

[dmatthews]

I’ve started looking more closely. Price is steep-ish, hardware is 10+ years old. Plus, it looks like Bender from Futurama.

More seriously, looks aren’t bad, knobs over menus are good. Is the “Liquid Profiling” or whatever it’s called out, does it deliver on the promise of a truly adjustable profile? 10 year old hardware is fine if it does what it needs to do. If they do refresh, V1 will become a good deal used.

I haven’t decided on anything really.

From a home player, to practice studio, to gigging it absolutely does what it needs to do, and more importantly what I need it to do.
The Stage unit has updated hardware (I don't have one) and boots faster and includes Wifi built in. Also has extra outputs.
They all run the same software/feature set.
I like the head version because it can sit on top of the cab at practice/gigs and a single cable to the remote.
Liquid profiles are merely regular profiles, but with a more accurate/true to original EQ/gain section. Works wonders on many. Thing is that a great profile from years ago is still great because it was captured at a great setting.
Couple it with a Kabinet/FRFR/studio monitors/headphones (whatever you choose) and it is seriously hard to beat.

 

[Wyzard]

On a Tonex note: having only just received the Tonex pedal I wrote about five days ago, I've had a total of three hours on it so far.

Still on the ODS setting I started with, and with Cornish CC-1 and SS-3 in front and FTT Ambi-Space behind, it then goes into one of my Hiwatts. "Cab" is off, as is reverb of course. I've tried it briefly into a GT Dual 75 and Fender PA135 too, but the Hiwatt seems like a better fit for now. I've got loads of other amps to try it with. Once I've got more used to it, I'll probably try it through a FRFR setup as well. Dealing with cab impulse responses seems like a bridge too far right now.

So far, I'm getting good feel and sound...... not too dissimilar to my base sound from my Two Rocks on their lead channels. Not as chewy, and a little bass-light; but that may change with more experience. The playing experience/feel is not quite as instantaneous or plugged into my nervous system as my favourite amps, and I wonder whether the tiny amount of latency is what I'm still feeling. But darn it - it's getting close to something I could use live, without feeling I was really being held back by the gear in a meaningful way.


I really am a total noob with this whole modeling/capture multiple-submenu/software thing - I've always plugged into an amp, often even without pedals, in order to get my live sound. So this is a radical departure, and the relatively instant success is very encouraging.

 

[Bogner]

I’ve started looking more closely. Price is steep-ish, hardware is 10+ years old. Plus, it looks like Bender from Futurama.

More seriously, looks aren’t bad, knobs over menus are good. Is the “Liquid Profiling” or whatever it’s called out, does it deliver on the promise of a truly adjustable profile? 10 year old hardware is fine if it does what it needs to do. If they do refresh, V1 will become a good deal used.

I haven’t decided on anything really.

I Know You Haven't Decided. I Was Just Giving You A Hard Time.

Regarding The Kemper: For What You Get and The Quality Of What You Get Along With The Many Capabilities You Get I Would Say It Is The Best Valued Musical Item I Have Ever Bought. The Hardware Works Fine And Does Anything And Everything One Would Ever Want And Need. The Updates Are Free And The Support Is Wonderful If You Ever Need It. In Fact, Their Costs To Make It Went Down So They Dropped Their Retail Cost As Well. What Company Does That Now A Days? A Great Capture Is A Great Capture...No Different Then The Sonic "Capture" You Get Now Through Your Mesa Amp When You Turn It On And Have A Go At It. Each Time You Change A Setting On It You Are "Capturing" Something New. The Liquid Profiling Is Nice And A Game Changer IMO. I Honestly Don't See Them Doing A Radical Makeover On The Unit But This Is Only My Opinion...A New Unit From Top To Bottom May Came Out Tomorrow But It Really Isn't Necessary IMO. A Smaller Unit Would Be Cool That Could Be Added To A Pedalboard Like The HX Stomp Which I Could See Them Doing. People Talk Of Its Age But It Remains Relevant And Plugs Along Issue Free While Competitor Units Actually Do Become Outdated And A New Version Is Created And Sold Making The Original Investment A Waste Eventually. The Kemper Never Falls Into That Trap. For Ease Of Use, Capture Speed And Tuning Capabilities Of Said Capture, Effects, Options For Recording, Along With It's Ugliness It Can't Be Touched.

Side Note: I Mentioned Earlier The Friedman BE-OD Deluxe Pedal And Forgot To Mention The DryBell Engine As A Good Option For You If You Were To Go That Way.

 

[László]

10 year old hardware is fine if it does what it needs to do.

Since they claim it perfectly models the amps, why would they bother upgrading the hardware?

Kidding. The current model is still awfully good for what it does.

My honest thinking is that players who aren't upset about the way a current Kemper sounds won't notice a sonic upgrade. They might notice something like a software or feature upgrade, like a big screen, etc.

Old guy refrain:

The hardware that needs upgrading here is me - I just plain hurt everywhere the minute I wake up. By the time my body loosens up and starts to feel good, it's bedtime. And then the cycle begins anew, dammit. If I gigged, I'd have to gives serious thought to either a very small amp or a Kemper.

In terms of new gear I buy becoming obsolete, I'm pretty sure I'll expire before the warranty does! And I sure won't outlive its usefulness.

End of old guy refrain.

 

[aamefford]

Since they claim it perfectly models the amps, why would they bother upgrading the hardware?

Kidding. The current model is still awfully good for what it does.

My honest thinking is that players who aren't upset about the way a current Kemper sounds won't notice a sonic upgrade. They might notice something like a software or feature upgrade, like a big screen, etc.

Old guy refrain:

The hardware that needs upgrading here is me - I just plain hurt everywhere the minute I wake up. By the time my body loosens up and starts to feel good, it's bedtime. And then the cycle begins anew, dammit. If I gigged, I'd have to gives serious thought to either a very small amp or a Kemper.

In terms of new gear I buy becoming obsolete, I'm pretty sure I'll expire before the warranty does! And I sure won't outlive its usefulness.

End of old guy refrain.

I’m with you on the hardware. I’m also with you on the big screen. Not because I need more information. Because I need the same information displayed (much) bigger these days. Waking sore and retiring sore - check. I do get some time in between that is pretty good though. As to gigging while older, my lovely wife and I saw Adam Ant a few years ago. It was the third song before he looked comfortable moving on stage. I’m pretty sure whatever he took for the aches and pains took that little bit to kick in. At the time I thought it was funny. Fast forward a few years and it seems perfectly normal.

 

[Bogner]

My honest thinking is that players who aren't upset about the way a current Kemper sounds won't notice a sonic upgrade. They might notice something like a software or feature upgrade, like a big screen, etc.

The Kemper Only Puts Out What You Give It So 99.9% Of The Time The Complaining About Sounds Is Rooted In Operator Error And Or Poor Knob Tweaking, Not The Kemper Unit Itself. Just Like On A Tube Amp... There Are Great Sounds Dialed In And "Captured" Of Said Amp And There Are Also Bad Sounds "Captured" Of The Same Amp. Doesn't Mean The Amp Is Bad (In Most Cases), It Just Means The Person Can't Dial In A Good Tone And Or They Are Not Getting A Good Capture.

In Your Estimation, How Could The Kemper Be "Upgraded" And Made Better?

 

[László]

In Your Estimation, How Could The Kemper Be "Upgraded" And Made Better?

I think what's being said is that the user interface could be improved with, say, a larger touch-screen, etc.

But audio capture is only as good as the analog preamp and analog circuitry before the audio hits the converters, gets processed, gets converted back to analog, and comes back to the analog output.

Analog hardware is always subject to improvement; the newer UA converters sound better to me than the ones on my older interface.

Then too, bit depth and sample rate could always be upgraded more finely; 24/96 is great at present, but who knows what happens when they go 48/192 or higher? Remains to be seen.

I notice more three-dimensionality and transparency in my mixes and recordings when I go 24/96 (my computer hiccups at 192), and would love even higher resolution. I hope they do it, but not until I get one of the M2 Ultra-Poo-Bah Mac Studios.

On the other hand, the current broadcast standard is still 24/48 so I'm in no rush to upgrade my hardware.

Software is something else that could possibly be improved, and lo and behold, Kemper claims that indeed, it has been improved!

 

[aamefford]

Then too, bit depth and sample rate could always be upgraded more finely; 24/96 is great at present, but who knows what happens when they go 48/192 or higher? Remains to be seen.

I notice more three-dimensionality and transparency in my mixes and recordings when I go 24/96 (my computer hiccups at 192), and would love even higher resolution. I hope they do it, but not until I get one of the M2 Ultra-Poo-Bah Mac Studios.

I experimented with different bit rates a bunch during my 15 years of headphone audiofooldom. I felt I could tell the difference between 24/48 and 24/96. Honestly, maybe I could, maybe I couldn't. All I could discern with the 48/192 was that my hard drive space was gobbled up at an alarming rate. I'm not really sure this is relevant, just kinda throwing it in there so to speak.

 

[László]

I experimented with different bit rates a bunch during my 15 years of headphone audiofooldom. I felt I could tell the difference between 24/48 and 24/96. Honestly, maybe I could, maybe I couldn't. All I could discern with the 48/192 was that my hard drive space was gobbled up at an alarming rate. I'm not really sure this is relevant, just kinda throwing it in there so to speak.

I can tell the difference on A/B, but if someone simply played one or the other version by itself, I'd probably have a hard time saying whether it's 24/48 or 24/96.

I work in 24/48 because that's the film and TV broadcast standard. If that changes, I'll have to change, too.

 

[Prina]

I experimented with different bit rates a bunch during my 15 years of headphone audiofooldom. I felt I could tell the difference between 24/48 and 24/96. Honestly, maybe I could, maybe I couldn't. All I could discern with the 48/192 was that my hard drive space was gobbled up at an alarming rate. I'm not really sure this is relevant, just kinda throwing it in there so to speak.

It's subtle but 24/96 just seems a little more transparent.

As @László noted, 48k is the video standard and also my Fractal gear is locked at 48k. If it weren't for Fractal, I'd probably be at 96k partly from experience with video where there is a huge difference between the recording format and the delivery format in both compression formats and bit rates. 4K RAW content records at >1Gb/s but is usually delivered at 20-50Mb/s and still looks great. What the RAW format allows however is the ability to change the color grade, the look of the image in exposure, contrast, saturation and many other factors. Trying to do changes like that on compressed delivery content makes the image quality fall apart pretty quickly.

The analogy for sound is that if effects such as reverb are added later then having more detail in the original signal allows more processing with less quality loss.

 

[Wyzard]

On the Tonex: I've spent four or five hours on it over the last couple of days. It's going into the Fender PA head once again, and will probably be staying with that one for a while.

I'm getting quite comfortable with it plugged into the PA135 and a couple of Celestion cabs. It's like the cheapest alternative Steel String Singer setup you could possibly throw together; and potentially equally freaking loud too.

Mind you, I haven't tried it with the Hiwatt DR201 yet......

 

[aamefford]

Good news, bad news. Our local guitar and stuff store, Tweedhut, is closing its doors. I’m not sure the story yet, if the owner is retiring, or if things are heading south with rising prices, rising interest rates and falling demand. I know he has a lot (a lot) of inventory from strong Covid orders then late deliveries. The maybe good news is there was an HDRX20 there. I’ve been eyeballing the HDRX20 since it came out. This whole thread started because I wanted to get Plexi to JCM800 type tones. The HDRX20 would at least cover the Plexi tones. Maybe JCM800 ish with a pedal(s). Anyway I’m gonna go see if wants to sell it more than I want to buy it. If not, I’m probably back to the Archon. The archon with the gain set low seems to have a nice crunch. Not Marshall crunch, but it seemed nice on the all 1 or maybe 2 you tube vids that weren’t 2 minutes of clean and 15 minutes of blistering gain. Anyway, Black Friday morning ramble.

 

[aamefford]

It’s a good story. He’s retiring after 22 years. He plans to be around until May. He owns the inventory, but leases the building; his lease is up in May.

Anyway, he’s offering 20% off on the HDRX20. He also has a new Archon. I’d assume the same 20%. I already own a Mesa MkV25.

So as far as amps go, here’s my current dilemma:
1) HDRX20 for $640 plus tax, just under $700
2) Archon 50 MkII $800 plus tax, about $865
3) 2016 Archon 50, whatever I can negotiate under $900, thinking $800 or no go. It’s been on the market for months.

Thoughts from others with a voyeuristic interest in spending my money?

My thoughts - best deal - do nothing.

Keep the MkV25, add the HDRX20 for vintage tones.

Get one of the archons, eventually sell the MkV25. In this case, the new Archon with warranty seems the solid choice?

Blow all of these off, and get the Kemper non powered head on CL for $850. Not leaning this way yet.

Ok, you all have your homework now, lol.

 

[Bogner]

It’s a good story. He’s retiring after 22 years. He plans to be around until May. He owns the inventory, but leases the building; his lease is up in May.

Anyway, he’s offering 20% off on the HDRX20. He also has a new Archon. I’d assume the same 20%. I already own a Mesa MkV25.

So as far as amps go, here’s my current dilemma:
1) HDRX20 for $640 plus tax, just under $700
2) Archon 50 MkII $800 plus tax, about $865
3) 2016 Archon 50, whatever I can negotiate under $900, thinking $800 or no go. It’s been on the market for months.

Thoughts from others with a voyeuristic interest in spending my money?

My thoughts - best deal - do nothing.

Keep the MkV25, add the HDRX20 for vintage tones.

Get one of the archons, eventually sell the MkV25. In this case, the new Archon with warranty seems the solid choice?

Blow all of these off, and get the Kemper non powered head on CL for $850. Not leaning this way yet.

Ok, you all have your homework now, lol.

I Have Some Thoughts...

Archon 1 ALWAYS Over The Archon II.
A Kemper Isn't A Bad Thing But The Powered Vs Unpowered Can Create Some Twists In The Road That Need Consideration.
I Wouldn't Give Up The Mesa For The HDRX Or Archon II By Itself. Adding The HDRX Would Be My Move If I Was Going To Have Two Heads.

 

[aamefford]

Archon I over II - sound? Build? Yes?

Kemper non amped:
+ I can run into powered monitors or into power station and cab
- I just fiddle too much with multi-amp things, it gets frustrating.

Keep the Mesa regardless of additional purchase. I get the never sell sentiment. Could I very loosely say the Mesa, very loosely, covers similar ground as the Archon?

For that matter does the Mesa crunch cover the Marshall tones close enough? Yes, I have the Mesa, and the crunch sounds decent. I don’t have a Marshall. Yes, countless recordings of studio processed Marshall tones, and countless YouTube compressed videos. The Mesa is decently close.

Cab For Now - Mesa Widebody Open with the 90 watt Mesa/Celestion Black Shadow. I’ll eventually buy or build a closed, probably 1x12 to compliment it.

So why get a new amp at all? Why not? New-itis? Less fiddly dialing in of tones with the HDRX20? HDRX20 owners please comment?


Edit to add - Yes, I know I’m flailing around here. All the options listed above are viable for me, including the Kemper.

The Archon is much loved here. I’m not sure I want a primarily modern high gain amp; I kinda already have one. From how i usually dial the mkV25, I’m afraid I’d be working on the wrong end of the Archon gain range. I generally use a lot less gain than I thought I would. That said, who doesn’t enjoy the Shiite out of cranking the gain (way) up once in a while?

The PRS HDRX20 has intrigued me since it came out. It *seems* that adding a pedal(s) to the HDRX20 will get in the range of modded Marshall. So I’m kinda leaning this way. Right now. This very second. Mostly. Maybe.

Or getting the Kemper and having all the amps I could ever want. Frozen in option paralysis…

Or doing nothing until GAS rears its ugly head again. Later. Like in 5 minutes.