Need More Validation?

Discussion in 'Electric Instruments' started by LSchefman, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. LSchefman

    LSchefman Hears Tones

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    I agree, it’s a process that’s endlessly interesting. Scoring to picture is the icing on the musical cake; I love doing it, because the picture/dialog inspires ideas.

    I even enjoy the process of mixing and mastering (some musicians don’t). I’ve done that for a few friends’ records, in addition to my own stuff. I jokingly refer to it as ‘sculpting sound’.
     
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  2. GADonis

    GADonis New Member

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    <snip>
    [/QUOTE] I’m so sick of that. They keep leaving out dentists, and we demand to be heard.[/QUOTE]

    Us engineers also want to be included.
     
  3. LSchefman

    LSchefman Hears Tones

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    I’m so sick of that. They keep leaving out dentists, and we demand to be heard.[/QUOTE]

    Us engineers also want to be included.[/QUOTE]

    Unfortunately, I don’t have any engineer jokes ready to go, so I say yes!
     
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  4. sergiodeblanc

    sergiodeblanc Get in, loser, we’re going shopping.

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    That’s one of the things that made me okay with stopping that kind of work. Towards the end, everything I was getting (which was low budget) was just emailing DI’ed tracks.... it got lonely and uninspiring.

    In some ways it was nice because I’d get paid and nobody knew how long it took, or even if I had cut the tracks with pants on but... there was no pomp and circumstance, which I really found enjoyable.
     
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  5. Maertl513

    Maertl513 Sherlock 513

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    All about stereotypes once announced due to envy.
     
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  6. jak3af3r

    jak3af3r Slightly Older Than New Member

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    I've had the producer experience live too. I played a show and the artist manager called and told me I needed to play a LP or LP type object.
     
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  7. LSchefman

    LSchefman Hears Tones

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    It’s weird that other people care so much about the image, and don’t want artists to choose their own types of tones. It also happened to my son when he got to LA several years back. As things worked out, Fender gave his band tour support, so all’s well that ends well, but I was a little nonplussed.
     
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  8. shallbe

    shallbe New Member

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    I played a gig last weekend with two PRS---my DGT artist and CU22 artist. There were a lot of local musicians in the crowd, but later a major talent showed up. This guy was the musical director for BJ Thomas for 20 years, toured the world, plays incredible guitar and has played with everyone big back then (Glen Campbell, etc). Anyway, he caught the end of a set and asked about my avatar guitar.

    It told him it was a PRS, which he had little knowledge of, but he had heard of David Grissom. Anyway, he said, "That guitar is beautiful, and it sounds REALLY nice."

    Validation.
     
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  9. Mozzi

    Mozzi https://imgur.com/user/BAMozzy

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    This I can understand, being asked to bring a Les Paul type or Strat type, looking for something with humbuckers or single coils but to go so far as to demand its a Gibson LP or Fender Strat seems somewhat odd to me. I am not disputing that they may ask but what would be so wrong in turning up with a PRS 594 or PRS Silver Sky to deliver the sound they are looking for.

    You would think that these people would be aware that not every LP or Strat is the same, have the same PU's etc and we know that in Blind tests, a Silver Sky is indistinguishable from a 63/64 Strat . If you are not there as the attraction but just there to make music for an artist so the 'look' of an instrument, the brand on the headstock shouldn't matter - just the sound coming out and the ability of the musician to play the notes/chords perfectly. I could even see a guitar like the 509, 513 and probably the Special 22 being more than adequate for the majority of session work - there versatility to cover so many different Pick up combinations enabling them to cut down on the need to bring a case full of different guitars.

    I always thought, obviously incorrectly, was that session musicians would be hired on their ability, on their efficiency and reputation - not on whether they own the right Strat/LP with the right PU's. I have no issue with turning up to a job with a strat type, LP type one with Humbuckers and maybe one with P90's, semi-hollow/hollow type if you are not given a heads up - same with taking an Amp or two - one for cleans and a one for gain but to be told it has to be a Gibson LP or Fender Strat for example doesn't make sense to me. Again not saying this doesn't happen but that it just isn't reasonable as there is probably a wide range of tonal variation across 'Gibson' Les Pauls as there is between the brands that make Les Paul types. My 594 for example could be the 'LP' type tones with more clarity and articulation that does a song justice compared to be forced to bring a Gibson that gets a bit more muddy just because of brand prejudice. To reiterate, I cannot see any issue with being asked to Bring a Les Paul or Strat and then turning up with PRS versions because that's the instruments you own and feel most comfortable with without being sent home because you didn't bring Gibson or Fender but don't understand being told or expected to turn up with specific brands when a 'brand' can have just as much variation in tone as there are between different brands - after all, isn't it the sound they want not the pictures....
     
  10. markd21

    markd21 New Member

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    I do session work - certainly NOT at the level of what Les is talking about. You are hired for your ability. I broke into the local session scene because I am a versatile player with some reading skills, have a good ear, good tone (vibrato, note intonation), and good gear. However, I work in small studios - often just glorified home studios that happen to be in treated storage units - like I said, NOT at the level Les is talking about....

    Anyway, when I started I still had a lot of other guitars and only a couple of PRS'. Even though it was all low-level/low-buck stuff, I still brought several guitars to a session. If I was coming in to do a song (which sometimes I wouldn't know) that would "normally" have a strat sound, then the producer and/or artist would expect to hear that sound. Not something "close". Having "better" guitars (PRS), it was frustrating because a producer and/or artist would rather have me play an entry-level American Strat over my PRS Custom 22. Oh well, their vision/song - not mine.

    As a session player, I have to remember that instruments are colors on a paint palette. While a 594 can deliver Les Paul "like" tones, it still does not sound like a Les Paul. I was hoping it would get me closer when I got mine - and it did - but it is still clearly NOT a Les Paul. It's still missing something, so if I need that color (the Les Paul sound) in my palette, then I NEED an actual Les Paul. If I come into a situation where a producer requests a Les Paul, and I don't have one, then I am not doing the job expected - which is provide the sound the producer and/or artist is looking for on the song. I am being paid to do a job, and while I could say that my 594 is les Paul-ish, at the end of the day I have the wrong tool for the job....the wrong shade of red, so to say.

    Now, I am in a lucky spot. I do enough with the local "producers" that they pretty much leave me alone. I deliver. I always ask up-front what they are hearing/wanting for the song. If the producer KNOWS guitars they will say something like:

    "Les Paul into a Marshall, played like Johnny Thunders."

    That gives me something VERY specific to attain. In all honesty, I am gonna rent a Les Paul and a Marshall. That has only happened a couple of times - not enough to justify me actually buying a real LP or a Marshall.

    If the producer just says something like:

    "Ummm, I want the guitar to have that Jimi Hendrix feel."

    That tells me I have a little more room for interpretation on gear. The producer is looking for a vibe, not specific gear. In that case, I'll bring a couple different guitars that I own - which at this point are all PRS (except a custom built Esquire). I'll pack my EG3, my Brent Mason, a Paul's Guitar and maybe the Vela. All of these are guitars that I have comfortably played Hendrix/SRV songs on. Once at the studio, I'll quickly play the part on each guitar and then narrow it down from the play back.

    However, the last couple sessions I did were the kind I don't like. I had an email exchange with the producer where we discussed the track and what they were looking for me to do with the track. A couple days later, I got an email saying the stems were in my cloud and I dropped them into a Protools session, recorded all my parts as DI'd parts, uploaded back to the cloud, and got paid via PayPal. I hate those sessions because there is no guidance or input from the artist or the producer. I mean, I am more than capable as a player, but what I might choose to do if it were MY song could be very different if I stumble into a "grey area" while tracking. What I DO like about those sessions is, that as long as the sound is "right" I can be less "accurate" regarding the guitar...like using my 594 instead of an actual LP.

    Pretty long here, but I hope that kind of explains it from a session player's (well a fake one anyway, lol) perspective.
     
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  11. jak3af3r

    jak3af3r Slightly Older Than New Member

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    I didn't take a LP. I took my McCarty because that manager doesn't know what he's talking about. Here's the example.

    (For those Nashville cats, we had rehearsal at SIR.) I turn up with my McCarty, a Tele I built, and a dumble clone I rehoused in a wildly-colored combo.

    At the end of rehearsal, he says, "wow that sounds really good, what is that a magnatone?" No, it's a dumble clone. "What's a dumble?"

    Now had this been a big name artist, I probably would've come with a LP and McCarty and said I have these, which do you prefer and if they didn't sound any different to his ears, I'd play the PRS because it's better.

    It's also worth noting a real producer probably has been around enough gear to know what sound he's looking for right off the bat. Engineers can do this too. However, like Brent Mason said, it's always good to have a few more options just in case they can't articulate exactly what they want.

    Producers and managers are weird. Sometimes it's just playing the game enough to let them think they're in control but still being able to do what you want. Make sure you have a GSO (Gibson shaped object) and an FSO (fender shaped object) and something else out there for wow factor.
     
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  12. ScottR

    ScottR If nobody saw it, it didn't happen.

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    I’m so sick of that. They keep leaving out dentists, and we demand to be heard.[/QUOTE]

    Us engineers also want to be included.[/QUOTE]

    Okay...you're included.

    Wait...is that like a "Casey Jones/ driving that train" kinda engineer or the "Pocket Protector/I love math" kinda engineer?

    Asking for a friend...with an inquiring mind.
     
  13. BWV548

    BWV548 Custom Title

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    I’ve been following this, and the more I read about the way things seem to run in the studio world, the more ridiculous I find the whole thing.
    If I composed a bassoon concerto, and was getting it recorded, and some producer started hassling the bassoonist for playing a Fox bassoon, because he had it in his brain that it just HAD to be a Henkle, first I’d laugh in the producers face. Then I’d give him an ear training exam. If he couldn’t pass, I’d insist he be sacked, or at the very least I’d insist that he sit there and not talk, unless he had something to add about budgets or project timelines.
    Can the bassoonist play the part properly? Does he have a vision of how that part should be played, which doesn’t change what’s written on the page?Does he respond to musical direction from the composer? Does he work productively with the conductor? Are his reeds all sorted? Does the part require a high D, and if so was he prepared with an instrument that has i high D? These are the critical things.

    Now I realize that symphonic music and music with electric instruments have different needs. And I’m being slightly hyperbolic to make a point. Which is that I struggle to see where the value comes in with some producer insisting on what guitar the guitarist should play. Even if the guitarist is being paid extra to schlep. It seems like an inefficient way to work, and that I’d imagine there are far more important things that warrant that level of focus.
     
  14. jak3af3r

    jak3af3r Slightly Older Than New Member

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    PRS himself said people hear with their eyes. This is pretty much the core of the issue.
     
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  15. vchizzle

    vchizzle Birdman.

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    I don’t need no stinking validation. It’s nice that a player of Tim’s stature feels that way though.
     
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  16. GADonis

    GADonis New Member

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    Us engineers also want to be included.[/QUOTE]

    Okay...you're included.

    Wait...is that like a "Casey Jones/ driving that train" kinda engineer or the "Pocket Protector/I love math" kinda engineer?

    Asking for a friend...with an inquiring mind.[/QUOTE]

    Pocket protector type. They won't let me near a locomotive.
     
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  17. Alnus Rubra

    Alnus Rubra Loving nature’s wonders

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    Us engineers also want to be included.[/QUOTE]

    Unfortunately, I don’t have any engineer jokes ready to go, so I say yes![/QUOTE]

    Here’s what the inter web had to offer -

    Q: How many engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
    A1: None. They are all too busy trying to design the perfect light bulb.

    A2: Only the one with the instruction manual.

    A3: One. But she would insist that the way she did it was distinctive.

    A4: Three. One to hold the ladder, one to hold the light bulb, and the third to interpret the Japanese text.

    A5: Five. One to design a nuclear-powered light bulb that never needs changing, one to figure out how to power the rest of the USA using that nuked light bulb, two to install it, and one to write the computer program that controls the wall switch.

    A6: None. "According to my calculations, the problem doesn't exist."


    “We don’t need no stinking validation. We don’t need no instrument control”

    “No dirty looks from the control room, Producer leave that sound alone”

    ....... (c’mon Dave)
     
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  18. Beery Swine

    Beery Swine New Member

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    IMPLYING PRS players are anywhere near the sub-pondscum level of doctors and lawyers and Hollywood producers.
    I know it's controversial, but I'm just gonna say it: I'm an anti-dentite. Jerry was right.
     
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  19. andy474x

    andy474x Knows the Drill

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    Geez, someone woke up with their shirt untucked!
     
  20. LSchefman

    LSchefman Hears Tones

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    First, this kind of thing is unique to the pop music world.

    Nonetheless, if you think for one second that composers have the clout to give hearing tests to record producers, or fire them, you’re living in dreamland.

    If the conductor is an artist of stature, and the orchestra as well, they will have input as to the producer, not the composer.

    However, artists like pianists demand certain specific instruments - don’t supply just any Steinway or Bodendorfer - and I remember E. Power Biggs and the big deal over playing his Bach recordings in the Thomaskirche. So there’s plenty of specificity.
     
    #60 LSchefman, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019

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