Multi-guitar band, cant hear self, turn down or up?

watelessness

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Apr 26, 2012
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i'm struggling to hear myself in a two-guitar band. I've tried amps, speakers, positioning, EQ's, etc. i swear that we're all competing to find our sonic space but we're unable to dial it in (yes, that's DG paraphrase). the common concept seems to keep turning up but i'm resisting.

Anyone else find the ultimate solution?
 
I'm assuming you're asking about how to control sound in a live setting. When mixing, it's tempting to want boost. You boost here, you boost there, and then pretty soon your mix is overblown. I mix with a subtractive zone approach, even dropping out entire bands and playing with the Q until I have enough of what I want in one instrument, then the others can poke through. In a live setting you're all trying to hear yourselves over the drummer, who you can't EQ. A lot of what you need to do depends on the space you play in, as well as what you're doing now that's not working. I bet LSchefman has an idea. Schef?
 
I really focus on playing outside of the other guitarist's parts. I also treat it as a challenge to get my ideas across with the smallest bandwidth possible. Two and three string parts and inversions above the seventh fret often work well with first position. I had to struggle with not playing the "money" part, but making the other part sound better.
 
Stand closer to your amp.

I only half jest - I find that if I turn up my sound enough to hear myself, and I am "hanging with the others", then I'm probably too loud for them. But if I stand a bit closer to my amp (and make sure my speaker/cab is pointed at me, and not the wall across the room), then I can hear myself much better. The equivalent would be to get a monitor that points at you with a dedicated mix.

I know you said you've played with positioning, but is your amp cab/speaker pointed at you, or just "out into the room"?

But as others have suggested, try playing other parts, or EQ your guitars differently - if one has a mids-boost, then try for a lower freq boost of the other, or play chord inversions elsewhere on the neck.

And of course, keep in mind that a "wall of sound" is sometimes a desired effect, and not hearing yourself specifically means you are all blending together well. Play something "wrong/off-key" - do you hear it immediately? then that means you are blending your individual parts well...
 
For me the issue isn't the other guitar player that I battle every gig, it's the bass player. He has one of those 8x10 Ampeg cabs and he lets everyone know it.
 
In my experience, guitar players that are not used to playing in a 2+ guitar band tend to struggle with the stomp pretty regularly.

The last serious band I played with had a "lead" guitarist that was used to himself, bass, and drums - that's it. So when I came in as 2nd guitarist (or in his mind "lesser" guitarist), every time he looked over at me during rehearsals, he'd stop and ask what the heck I was playing. "That's the wrong chord!" "Your not playing it right!" etc. I'd roll my eyes and explain I was filling in around him, playing alternate chord forms, sometimes open chords with a capo just to separate out my playing from his. He'd sort of accept it, but I really don't think he understood. I would just insist he ignore what I'm playing and take care of himself. Two guitars playing exact same chord/note stomp all over each other. You have to play sort of opposite each other, even if it means making something up on a cover song that isn't in original since there's only one guitar in original.

Loud is the enemy, as it will destroy the nuances of your playing and deafen your audience. Think of it this way, would you want to go see an art exhibit that was backlit with lasers, so that you'd go blind trying to look at the painting? Do you want to do similar with people trying to listen to your music?
 
I really focus on playing outside of the other guitarist's parts. I also treat it as a challenge to get my ideas across with the smallest bandwidth possible. Two and three string parts and inversions above the seventh fret often work well with first position. I had to struggle with not playing the "money" part, but making the other part sound better.

^^^^ this

Does the other guitar player have the same problem?

I'm guessing that you guys need to each have a different timbre (clean vs distorted, single coil vs humbucker) AND be on different parts of the neck.

I know there are egos involved, but trading places (perhaps on alternating songs) gives everyone a chance in the spotlight. If one of you is strictly lead and the other is strictly rhythm, you can still get separation by different tones and neck positions. A great example is Glenn Frey's chicka chicka chicka rhythm part in "The Long Run".

If you are both doing the same thing at any place in the song, harmony is your friend.
 
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Great topic! I do agree with everything you are saying. I have always played in multi guitar bands and I can tell you that everything that has been said is true! I find that on the parts both guitars are doing the same thing you can't hear yourself and that's good, it means both of you are doing it right. We try to play different things for the most part but certain parts on certain songs we do play the same thing to beef it up more but one of us generally tries to play up the neck or throw a different chord pattern so that there is a difference. We also use different tones, I make sure that mine is more into the lower frequencies than the other guy, I like a deep thick sound and I play mostly rhythm, the other guitarist does the leads so he stays in the higher frequencies and we complement each other rather than compete with each other. One other thing if you want to really be heard, mids.. If you give a little on the mid knob it will put you up into the mix more. A band has to be a series of people doing their job, if you are rhythm you need to be the rhythm guy, the lead guy should add flair to what you are doing, that's the way I see it. One other thing we do is I will play a chord and the lead player will play an arpeggio over my chord, that generally seems to work pretty well too.
 
From my little experiences with different bands, I found that whenever we have a super power drummer, we would definitely struggle with that problem. With the drummer that play at appropriate volume, the whole band sound much better, clearer and we could hear what each of us was playing.

Lower the volume of the whole band, especially the drummer, then you would hear everything.

On top of that, I normally play the rhythm part and would EQ my sound to be on the lower frequency side of the spectrum, while the lead player would be on the higher frequency.
 
I had this problem with my last band, and to an extent with my current band, although I was able to use a lot of the same tricks over again. I found that it was a combination of the things listed: cab position, EQ, and volume. Get the cab pointed right at your head, and use enough volume that you can hear it in that position. Also, this sounds contrary to logic, but stand a little further from your cab - especially if it's a closed back, those things beam like crazy, so if you stand further away, your sound has a little room to spread out, so if you move a little bit, you don't step out of the "sweet spot". Also, I had to EQ some bass out of my tone. The bass player covers that, and the thinner sound cuts more.

The main thing I've found is that a band that is pumping a lot of volume but is confined to a small stage, is never going to have a good mix right on the stage. The cabs are too directional to get a good spread in that amount of space. Just have to either get the mix right in the listening area, where things will even out a bit, or let the sound guy sort it out if everything is mic'd.

Obviously, the real solution here would be to have a chat with your band about playing at a more reasonable volume. But I've been there, with dudes who just have to play at 11. Really frustrating when you know the music is a lot more enjoyable for everyone when it doesn't cause a headache!!!
 
When playing with the band I am in now I have the SAME issue. As said above we are playing the same thing with almost the same tone - I think for me this may be a good thing. A solid unified background and then one jumps out for a lead.

We play quietly as our drummer plays electronic drums for practice. Some one is always being told to turn down not up.

Sometimes the other gtr player tries different chords or capo and for me it's often off putting.
 
It depends on the material, but in general, I find that guitarists self-regulate much better when they dial back on the gain. In general, most folks use more gain than what's appropriate for the material anyway and at the same volume setting, individual guitar parts stand out much better with less distortion and compression. Not that convincing another guitarist that he needs to dial back on the gain setting is any easier than telling him to turn down...but it does help in my experience....
 
It depends on the material, but in general, I find that guitarists self-regulate much better when they dial back on the gain. In general, most folks use more gain than what's appropriate for the material anyway and at the same volume setting, individual guitar parts stand out much better with less distortion and compression. Not that convincing another guitarist that he needs to dial back on the gain setting is any easier than telling him to turn down...but it does help in my experience....

+1. Also if you use an amp with a master volume, try using higher settings for the MV and lower gain settings to achieve the same output volume. I think you'll have a more defined sound that will cut better through the mix.
 
It depends on the material, but in general, I find that guitarists self-regulate much better when they dial back on the gain. In general, most folks use more gain than what's appropriate for the material anyway and at the same volume setting, individual guitar parts stand out much better with less distortion and compression. Not that convincing another guitarist that he needs to dial back on the gain setting is any easier than telling him to turn down...but it does help in my experience....

Too true! Save that extra boost of gain for the single note solos.

The old man band I play with (four of the guys are in their mid to late 60s, including my dad, and me in my 40s, hence the joking label) have drums, bass, keys, and two guitars. My dad and I both mainly play PRS guitars, and often the same model, but we come from such different influences and styles that we blend well (we pat our own backs frequently with how good the combinations sound). He plays clean almost all the time, and I tend to play a little dirty. He plays low rhythms and I play higher harmonies and horn parts. We're now working with the new keyboardist (who is used to playing solo) to keep from stepping all over the bass and guitars. For my part, I find myself playing even less dense parts--single note lines, double stops, etc.
 
What the hell is happening to guitarists? Turn it up! Kill 'em all and let the sound engineer sort 'em out. :D
 
Changing the eq on the amp can help a lot.
Lower the bass, raise the mids, add a touch of presence. Cutting back on gain helps too but I can't seem to do that myself.
 
I'm the only guitar player in the band I'm in now and I love it. What I love more is two guitars that play dynamically but that never happens. Both guitars don't need to play ALL the time, there is this thing called a rest! Oh and vol pot shouldn't be on 10 ALL the time either. Just my 2 cents.
 
In-ear monitors can be a big help in finding the right balance for a band. If the whole band is equipped with them, there's a lot less guesswork as to what's going on.

And most in-ear systems have limiters to prevent hearing damage.
 
In the bands I played in, I would always play an alternate voicing. If he played power chords, I would play the upper harmony, or, if the song required power chords, if he was playing root on 6th, I would play root on 5th. Never, ever play the same part. We had two guitars and keys in a few bands, and we would always work out the basic parts each of us would play. And for solos, here was my old trick. I was GOING to be heard when it was my turn to rip. I would turn my Marshall at the time WAY up to ear bleed levels. (It had plenty of gain on its own) Then, with a Boss super overdrive, I would turn the gain way down, and also cut the volume WAY back to my rhythm level. When I took a solo, I would stop on the Boss which turned it off, giving me a HUGE boost to the wide open Marshall. Drums? What drums? I could see people who were standing in front of my clinch there teeth and wince in pain when I stomped off that box for my solos, but I never had to worry about hearing myself, or the audience hearing my smoking improvs. :D :rock: Guys use to ask me how I got such a huge boost out of a Boss SD1, and I told them it was special mod by a local hot shot tech. :rock: That ended my volume problems. Use the od box as a volume CUT, not a boost, and stomp OFF of it for leads with your amp set to the loudest volume could possibly need. VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!
 
Just a few questions / points...
1. Monitors? Are you getting a balanced feed? We use in-ears and it's definitely the way to go. I use only one, leaving my left ear to pick up ambiant stage sound. We also have a dedicated soundman whom we trust, and his results have been proven in the recordings he's taken right from the board.
2. If you're not using a soundman, then get someone who's opinion you trust to tell you how your balance is (preferably another musician) who can give you some honest feedback as to your sound balance.
3. Are you the only member of the band with this concern, or is it a general opinion of all players?
4. You might just need to sit down and have a heart to heart with all the band members. There's a point where music turns into noise. You gotta be able to identify that point.

Good Luck.
 
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