MAN vs MACHINE

[Huggy Love]

Inspired by a debate I had with one of the grandmasters of this forum, I'd like to hear from the rest of the fam on this subject.

Since the 1980s technology has put a great impact on the world of music, in my view not a good one. The advent of the drum machines, sequencers, MIDI, and DAW's has changed the way we listen to, record, and perform music. It has gotten to the point that most young people have become so used to this that it has become the norm, and music performed completely by human beings is a novelty.


I will admit that since the 80s very few recordings have inspired me like the music prior to the technology revolution, but that's just me. Even when punk took over the main body of rock 'n roll and put guitar players that specialized in lead guitar (me) out of business, I still would hear acts like System of a down and Green day and have a great appreciation for their drummers. In my ears no drum machine can do what they do, with the feeling they have, and sequenced synthesizer patches leave me with a sense of emptiness.


Again, this is just my view and sensibility of the subject, as I mainly listen to jazz, progressive, fusion, classic rock, old funk, and R&B made prior to automation. Not everyone feels this way.


How do you feel? Would you take the red pill? (Humans) or would you take the blue pill (machines)?

 

[Goldtop]

I think technology is a great thing. In it's place. For someone like me who always plays alone, or a person who does a lot of home recording, or wants to be able to do things quickly and easily without having to gather a group of people together, drum machines etc. are great. And if someone has no problem with them being used in the music they buy or listen to, then fine. That's their choice.

But I prefer real, human drummers every time. I don't know how often I hear music and think to myself 'man, I'd love to hear this with a real drummer'. It happens enough that I mention it from time to time in some of the posts I make in the 'What's Goldtop listening to' thread.

Having said all of that, as the technology improves the sound and tone quality of artificial drums gets better, so maybe there will come a day when it's difficult to even notice a difference. Here's hoping.

As for other types of equipment, I think it depends on who is using it and what they do with it. Look at Stevie Wonder; to me, the man is incredibly talented, and his synths, etc. sound amazing.

Goldtop Lloyd

 

[Whitecat]

Even Steely Dan has used a drum machine at one point.

Drum replacement is absolutely rife in the music industry now too. The groove may be human, but the recordings are samples overlaid. What does that count as?

I listen to music that's good - this can mean it goes either way, and I listen to as much electro/programmed stuff as I do human stuff... it's all art, just different brushes.

 

[dmatthews]

I chose red. That is not to say that I don't like and appreciate my DAW though.
I play rhythm guitar in a rock band. We play songs from 60's to today. We use no synth and no gimmicks. I don't use pedals, just the versatility of the guitar and the 2 channels of my H. The P22 has really kicked it up a notch for increasing my tonal range. I like it this way, all organic. Well... to be fair I guess using LR Baggs system is not exactly organic, that would be a mic'd acoustic so maybe I'm being two faced.
I absolutely love my tech toys though, I work in a technical field.
I like many types of music, and music is subjective, as is any form of art.

 

[László]

I take both pills. Why not?

 

[WeFixFlats]

I cast my vote for 'Machine'. Why? Because I am a hobbyist home recorder that doesn't have the time, patience and space for a 'real human' drummer. Plus it's time is always perfect, relentless and makes me play the guitar completely 'in time' all the time during tracking and you can hear any timing mistakes during playback. The downside is I can't program it to 'swing' because it's a cheap one. And given my level of talent, I wouldn't want a real drummer to have to suffer through all my mistakes.

 

[Huggy Love]

I take both pills. Why not?

U might OD

 

[John Beef]

I dig it when drummers have those multi-pad thingies with different drum sounds.

 

[DuncanCE22]

In terms of a live performance, for me its humans all the way. A friend of mine went to see David Guetta and he just played a load of his songs to a light show. to me thats not a live performance. I think technology is fantastic for recording though. especially in the home. Recording studios can cost a fortune and are not always easily accessible (at least around me thats the case). Thanks to modern technology I can record a whole song on my Mac at half 1 in the morning without even getting dressed! Also around me drummers are rarer than unicorns, well ones that are any good anyway, so the fact that I can stay creative and record and write using a "fake" drummer pleases me. That said when it comes to recording a final track and not just demoing stuff I would always look to get a real drummer.

 

[xjbebop]

We all have an opinion and feelings about this (or any) subject, but none of us has any true control over the current state of the world. (...except maybe LSchefman... )
The reality of it all is that we only have control over our own feelings, actions and reactions. Put your energy into that.
And just maybe, once in awhile, that's enough to help influence the big picture...

I don't worry about what the rest of the world is doing or spinning as the next big thing. I'm just trying to enjoy my life and spread happiness to those I care about.

 

[Huggy Love]

spread happiness to those I care about.

I really like that statement!!! U win mucho points on that.

As for putting energy into my own feelings about it?.........no way, I just let that be natural.

 

[Mikegarveyblues]

I voted red but both have their place. I deplore the use of auto tune and anything else that makes someone with no musical talent sound like they do. It feels like fraud when you ask people to pay for that shat!

But great music can be made with non traditional instruments and means. The advent of the DAW, drum machines, samples, etc means I can get my music out there. I'm a guitarist and those guitars are real even if the rest is samples played on a midi keyboard or from a pre-set pattern.

It's when there isn't a human behind the machine - either in it's design or it's use - that you have to worry.

Artists are most protected from that 'revolution' according to a report I read. But for how long?

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I take both pills. Why not?

+1

U might OD

"One good thing about music, when it hits, you feel no pain." -Some dude.

I refuse to vote, I can't. I would mean I prefer Slayer to Sade, Deee-Lite to Di Meola, The Jackson 5 to Jurassic 5, or Zed's Dead to The Grateful Dead... Okay, that last one isn't fair, I f@ckin' hate GD.. but you know what I'm sayin'.

Since this thread is inspired by a debate with Les, I'll tell you what inspires me about Les: He's not a lazy old man who's so stuck in his ways that he can't appreciate, and make music that was made after his formative years. He keeps up with the times and continues to grow with the world. And I respect that.

It's perfectly natural to only like the music styles that you grew up with or the music you understand. I catch myself doing the same thing, but it's really limiting your enjoyment of music and your ability to create music.

Right before I joined this forum I got a touring DJ'ing and B-up singing gig for an artist from SF that sang over dubstep. I hadn't spent much time listening to that particular genre, initially thought it sounded like robots having sex in a mosh pit, and only took the job because I needed the money (I didn't even own a set of tables at the time). The only reason I got the gig was because he was an older (50+) reggae singer that I had known from recording previous reggae sessions, and we clicked.

Now if you know a bit about reggae music, you'll know that unless you're one of the Marley kids... You ain't getting paid sh!t. So this dude changed his style up, and got with the times instead of being a nostalgia act singing "Three Little Birds" at Hamburger In Paradise locations for the rest of his life. Totally opened my mind up to a new (to me) style of music, production, and audience, and I think I'm a better musician and producer than I was before. It took time for me to get into it, but eventually we were listening to Rusko in the van as much as we were listening to "Scratch" Perry, and I was liking it.

"You can't blame the youth."- Some other dude.

Young kids don't just look at "real musicians" playing "real music" as a novelty. Take a look at what young people actually listen to and you'll find it's all over the place. Just like the clothes they wear, young people are pulling influences from many different eras and combining them in a way that expresses their own feeling of individuality. It's actually pretty cool.

"Free your mind and your a$$ will follow."- Some other, other dude.

For anybody who wants to try to make music that other people will actually listen to, you gotta embrace all the colors available to you. I'm not sayin' it's easy, it takes effort. What if Miles Davis didn't embrace rock music? There would be no "Bitches Brew". What if Herbie wasn't inspired by the sounds of hiphop? Could you imagine life without "Rockit"?

Look to the past while you grow. Once you stop growing you start dying.

 

[bodia]

+1



"One good thing about music, when it hits, you feel no pain." -Some dude.

I refuse to vote, I can't. I would mean I prefer Slayer to Sade, Deee-Lite to Di Meola, The Jackson 5 to Jurassic 5, or Zed's Dead to The Grateful Dead... Okay, that last one isn't fair, I f@ckin' hate GD.. but you know what I'm sayin'.

Since this thread is inspired by a debate with Les, I'll tell you what inspires me about Les: He's not a lazy old man who's so stuck in his ways that he can't appreciate, and make music that was made after his formative years. He keeps up with the times and continues to grow with the world. And I respect that.

It's perfectly natural to only like the music styles that you grew up with or the music you understand. I catch myself doing the same thing, but it's really limiting your enjoyment of music and your ability to create music.

Right before I joined this forum I got a touring DJ'ing and B-up singing gig for an artist from SF that sang over dubstep. I hadn't spent much time listening to that particular genre, initially thought it sounded like robots having sex in a mosh pit, and only took the job because I needed the money (I didn't even own a set of tables at the time). The only reason I got the gig was because he was an older (50+) reggae singer that I had known from recording previous reggae sessions, and we clicked.

Now if you know a bit about reggae music, you'll know that unless you're one of the Marley kids... You ain't getting paid sh!t. So this dude changed his style up, and got with the times instead of being a nostalgia act singing "Three Little Birds" at Hamburger In Paradise locations for the rest of his life. Totally opened my mind up to a new (to me) style of music, production, and audience, and I think I'm a better musician and producer than I was before. It took time for me to get into it, but eventually we were listening to Rusko in the van as much as we were listening to "Scratch" Perry, and I was liking it.

"You can't blame the youth."- Some other dude.

Young kids don't just look at "real musicians" playing "real music" as a novelty. Take a look at what young people actually listen to and you'll find it's all over the place. Just like the clothes they wear, young people are pulling influences from many different eras and combining them in a way that expresses their own feeling of individuality. It's actually pretty cool.

"Free your mind and your a$$ will follow."- Some other, other dude.

For anybody who wants to try to make music that other people will actually listen to, you gotta embrace all the colors available to you. I'm not sayin' it's easy, it takes effort. What if Miles Davis didn't embrace rock music? There would be no "Bitches Brew". What if Herbie wasn't inspired by the sounds of hiphop? Could you imagine life without "Rockit"?

Look to the past while you grow. Once you stop growing you start dying.

This is the perfect post! I live about 10 miles west of you, and this makes me want to search you out and give you a hug (albeit not in a weird stalker sort of way!).

 

[Huggy Love]

+1



"One good thing about music, when it hits, you feel no pain." -Some dude.

I refuse to vote, I can't. I would mean I prefer Slayer to Sade, Deee-Lite to Di Meola, The Jackson 5 to Jurassic 5, or Zed's Dead to The Grateful Dead... Okay, that last one isn't fair, I f@ckin' hate GD.. but you know what I'm sayin'.

Since this thread is inspired by a debate with Les, I'll tell you what inspires me about Les: He's not a lazy old man who's so stuck in his ways that he can't appreciate, and make music that was made after his formative years. He keeps up with the times and continues to grow with the world. And I respect that.

It's perfectly natural to only like the music styles that you grew up with or the music you understand. I catch myself doing the same thing, but it's really limiting your enjoyment of music and your ability to create music.

Right before I joined this forum I got a touring DJ'ing and B-up singing gig for an artist from SF that sang over dubstep. I hadn't spent much time listening to that particular genre, initially thought it sounded like robots having sex in a mosh pit, and only took the job because I needed the money (I didn't even own a set of tables at the time). The only reason I got the gig was because he was an older (50+) reggae singer that I had known from recording previous reggae sessions, and we clicked.

Now if you know a bit about reggae music, you'll know that unless you're one of the Marley kids... You ain't getting paid sh!t. So this dude changed his style up, and got with the times instead of being a nostalgia act singing "Three Little Birds" at Hamburger In Paradise locations for the rest of his life. Totally opened my mind up to a new (to me) style of music, production, and audience, and I think I'm a better musician and producer than I was before. It took time for me to get into it, but eventually we were listening to Rusko in the van as much as we were listening to "Scratch" Perry, and I was liking it.

"You can't blame the youth."- Some other dude.

Young kids don't just look at "real musicians" playing "real music" as a novelty. Take a look at what young people actually listen to and you'll find it's all over the place. Just like the clothes they wear, young people are pulling influences from many different eras and combining them in a way that expresses their own feeling of individuality. It's actually pretty cool.

"Free your mind and your a$$ will follow."- Some other, other dude.

For anybody who wants to try to make music that other people will actually listen to, you gotta embrace all the colors available to you. I'm not sayin' it's easy, it takes effort. What if Miles Davis didn't embrace rock music? There would be no "Bitches Brew". What if Herbie wasn't inspired by the sounds of hiphop? Could you imagine life without "Rockit"?

Look to the past while you grow. Once you stop growing you start dying.

Some very good points there Serge, yes U gotta respect Les who is in tune with the state of the industry and does what I cannot with my computer/physical issues, but not all of it holds water with me. I understand more about technology & music than you might think and have to use a drum machine to get things done, although I wish I didn't have to. Being a music head I've been aware of everything that has transpired over the decades even if I feel reluctant submerge myself in it or enjoy hearing it. It's less a case of growth and more a case of taste and conviction, I just feel strongly about human made music and musicians in general.

Deee-lite vs DiMeola?..................I can't even speak to that, all I can say is the first 3 times I heard "Rockit" it was cool & interesting, after that I didn't want to hear it.

 

[ozboy]

Good thread. Good post. Musicians will always use the best tools available. It's tough to get a bunch of people together with enough time to fell into an effective unit. There is a lot of product out there. Unless you are exceptionally talented it's hard to get much attention

 

[László]

If you do nothing more with a machine than use it to develop new tunes, or practice with. it's a good tool.

It isn't necessarily man vs machine. It's man with machine AND human with human. No need to choose! One thing I've actually done on recordings in the past is use programmed drums, and have a drummer play along with the programmed drums, which can be a very cool blend. Won several awards with tracks I did that way. You'd be surprised.

BTW, I appreciate the kind words!

 

[Huggy Love]

BTW, I appreciate the kind words!

No prob baby, Ur a decent debater too.
But yes, this *IS* Man vs Machine, and just like the Matrix & Terminator series, man will prevail.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

This is the perfect post! I live about 10 miles west of you, and this makes me want to search you out and give you a hug (albeit not in a weird stalker sort of way!).

I'm sorry. I don't hang out with people from Naperville. :tongue:

Anytime you wanna get down, let me know. There are a bunch of us real close together that should try and link up sometime.

.. I understand more about technology & music than you might think and have to use a drum machine..

I'm not tryin' to make any negative presumptions about your experience, understanding, or intelligence. I'm quite the opposite, I assume everyone is smarter than me and I have the formal education to prove it. :redface:

I'm just voicing my own opinion and experience into a fun conversation among peers, and meant no disrespect.

 

[jfine]

Let's not forget that the electric guitar itself was once considered to be a radical invention that would ruin music, and not all that long ago either! When I was 13 and saving money for an electric guitar--I'd already been playing acoustic for a year or so, my aunt asked me why I wanted an electric guitar, when, in her words, "you already know how to play!" As if the electric was some sort of labor-saving device...And this was in the 1960's, so it's not like the electric guitar was a brand-new thing. In the long run, it's not the tools you use, it's what you do with them--but I've got to admit, I don't like AutoTuned vocals either!