Lost Guitarist?

[thesuperzman]

Hey gang,

I'm a bit of a lost guitarist, I think. I'm the proud new owner of a Silver Sky (among other guitars) and finally reached my frustration level of not being a better player and taking advantage beautiful new instrument. I wanted to post for advice and sounding board:

I've been playing for over 25 years now. And believe it or not, despite playing a little bit almost every day, I still consider myself a low-intermediate. Or that's what I've always believe. The reality is that I think my weaknesses are:

1) Lack of rhythm. Partly never focused on it and partly never playing with anyone (because when I do I wasn't very good and not confident ash this point).

2) Spotty knowledge and technique with a lack of cohesion. Meaning, my fingers can move confidently, I understand basic basic theory, and can cobble together something that resemblers a competent solo at times.

3) I'm sure since I learned on my own, my fundamental skills may be flawed (for instance, I'm just learning now that I should try to avoid my pinky when bending?? Who knew).

Anyway - that's my background. What I'm trying to do is figure out how the heck to improve. It's daunting. I've tried some instructors and they treat me like a beginner trying to teach me an A cord again or the pentatonic scale. I mean, remedial is fine, but understand your student. I tried online classes, but can't figure out - do I focus on beginner lessons to rebuild the foundation, theory, licks, advanced skills for improvising? I start down the path and then realize there are even more gaps in what I don't know.

Am I being too hard on myself? Probably not. Do I, and where, do I find an instructor that can deal with a unique guitarist like me (or am I not that rare?). If I do it on my own or online courses - where should I start?

My desire is to focus on the blues and be able to improvise. Sometimes I feel like it's just learning licks and putting them together. Sometimes I feel like if focus on the theory, the rest will fall into place. Oh, and I shouldn't forget rhythm, because if I ever want to play with anyone, I'm going to need to be able to do that too.

Help!

FYI - I am (actually) within 2 miles of the PRS factory. If anyone knows of an instructor on the island or the Annapolis area..let me know.

Thanks!

 

[merciful-evans]

I am entirely self taught but have mixed with a lot of other players.

3) I'm sure since I learned on my own, my fundamental skills may be flawed (for instance, I'm just learning now that I should try to avoid my pinky when bending?? Who knew).

I didn't. I sometimes use my pinkie to bend, I'm not aware of any problem. Should I be?

Perhaps you should start with online lessons and see if it suits you. Personal lessons will be tailored to your needs but you have to find the right teacher. Some of them will only teach you what they want to teach.

 

[BrianC]

I was very similar - things that helped over time:

got a drum machine
got a looper
found a better teacher
actually learned a song all the way through (thanks youtube)
played with other people
joined a band at 50

 

[thesuperzman]

I was very similar - things that helped over time:

got a drum machine
got a looper
found a better teacher
actually learned a song all the way through (thanks youtube)
played with other people
joined a band at 50

Well - got the computer that can act like a drum machine and do have a looper. That teacher is key. I'm almost 47 - if I could have a goal to be in a band by 50. That would be an amazing accomplishment and desire. Thanks!

 

[bodia]

You're pinky ain't all that. Michael Schenker only uses three fingers.....never the pinky. He's one of my idols. Having said that, I feel you. I'm in the same boat. I feel a lot like you do. And, I'm also spinning my wheels. There are some good lessons at True Fire. You may want to check that out. My main issue is that I get bored trying to do things that will improve my playing and just play the same old things I've been playing for the last 30 years. I've done the lesson thing, but have had the same experience as you. One guy wants to teach me Row Row Row Your Boat, and the other wants me to sit in the little room while he writes out tabs to a song I don't want to learn. I just need to commit time to a regime that I can stick to. Of course, I've been telling myself that since 1984.

 

[Tucson Thump]

Buy tab books of artists whose CD's you have. Nothing like sitting in with Robert Cray one day and The Rolling Stones the next.

 

[alantig]

The only reason to avoid bending with your pinky - if it’s even a valid reason - is that it’s the weakest finger. I think most people bend with the ring finger, using the other fingers to support. I’ve caught myself bending with all four fingers - even the index at rare times. The only rule is there are no rules. It took me a while to use my pinky way back when, and I can’t imagine not using it. But there are others who’d just as soon hang a towel off it (for easy reach, of course).

 

[walrus]

Regarding teachers, I've been doing the online video lessons with Paul Gilbert for a few years. Excellent stuff. He caters his lesson to what you want. It's a "back and forth" between you and him. And you have access to every other student's lesson, which is probably the best part of it - literally thousands of lessons of all levels available to you. There are other "schools" besides the "Rock" school I'm in, including a "blues" school. Check it out:

https://artistworks.com/

 

[walrus]

Why avoid the pinky for bending? Gilbert calls it using the "Giant Finger". As alantig said above, you use the other fingers to support it.

 

[thesuperzman]

I was very similar - things that helped over time:

got a drum machine
got a looper
found a better teacher
actually learned a song all the way through (thanks youtube)
played with other people
joined a band at 50

Tha

I am entirely self taught but have mixed with a lot of other players.



I didn't. I sometimes use my pinkie to bend, I'm not aware of any problem. Should I be?

Perhaps you should start with online lessons and see if it suits you. Personal lessons will be tailored to your needs but you have to find the right teacher. Some of them will only teach you what they want to teach.

I've been doing the online lesson and I'm lost at where I should start. I completed t

 

[thesuperzman]

Thanks fo the advice. I'd love go hear more. It's heartening to see a lot of folks in the same position as me.

For the record. I did Artistworks awhile ago and may go back. Truefire was ok, did the 30 day trial. The problem is there is just so much. I don't know where to start. For instance, I want to learn blues improvising. But with my weak foundation - do I start there? Do I go something more remedial? That's why I'm having trouble with the online stuff.

 

[gush]

I am also in the mediocre player catagory BUT I use my pinky to bend and vibrato. In fact I've learned to use all four of my fingers to do both.

I had been in a terrible rut for a really long time and was kind of thinking maybe it was time to give it up. I have been bandless for over a year now and am glad to not deal with BS that you get with a group of people.

The latest project I've been working on was something that came about completely out of the blue. I was quite apprehensive at first but it has turned out to be really fun and has actually breathed new life into my playing and it has me excited to play again.

I'm still a mediocre player but maybe I'm headed to the north side of that now.

Learn to count if you don't know how and play with a looper or drum machine or anything that will force you to keep perfect time.

 

[veinbuster]

This is a tough question that I suspect most players ask themselves from time to time.
I wouldn’t fixate on the quality of your foundation. Some players use theory to help them be creative but many get by just fine without necessarily knowing how to label what they do.
For me, a key milestone was not being afraid of what people thought about my playing. That signaled a belief that while there are much better players out there, I could play some things well enough that I didn’t need to be embarrassed.
On the way there I spent months working on things that I thought were important to the kind of music I wanted to play:
Tiny phrases like B B King
Smooth hammers and pull offs - basically playing with just my left hand
Vibrato - how much is the right amount
Slides
Rhythm (guitar, not tempo and beat) - this I probably spent 3 years on. I hear melodies in my head, so playing chord sequences was new territory. Which ones work. How to transition. How to sneak in melodic references
Trem - last week I finally felt like I might have a feel for the bounds of subtlety. I instinctively tried to go big with it, but that never worked for me.

With each of these, I spent some time working on that skill. Then I would play stuff I liked.

 

[markd21]

...I don't know where to start. For instance, I want to learn blues improvising. But with my weak foundation - do I start there? Do I go something more remedial? That's why I'm having trouble with the online stuff.

Honestly, I'd start with learning my keys. If you want to learn blues improvising, here's the method I'd do (I actually did this)….

1. Learn the basics of the I-IV-V chord progression, including the turn arounds. I would start with one key and play it until it was second nature - believe it or not, that will come quickly if you focus ONLY on that.

My focus here is multi-fold. I am learning to improve my skills as a rhythm guitarist. I am not yet taking/practicing licks/scales because being able to play in the background when it is NOT your turn is important. In order to improve my basic rhythm skills I would employ a drum machine. I would start at a tempo that is comfortable, and once I was "masterful" at that tempo I would increase AND decrease the tempo. Working your progression at various speeds will help improve your rhythm playing.

While I am learning the basic I-IV-V 12 bar blues progression, I would also take the time to open a notebook, while utilizing online resources, and write out my chords and positions. However you do this up to you - tab, notation, simple letter, chord charts...it doesn't matter. What maters is being able to see the patterns on the fretboard.

Speaking of patterns, I would practice my I-IV-V progression in different positions around the neck. This will help with becoming a master of note/chord placement on the fretboard.

2. Once I have "mastered" the concepts of the I-IV-V progression in a (one, single) key, I would move to the other keys - including my flats/sharps. At this point I would begin to alternate my practice. Part of my regiment would be practicing my rhythm playing in various keys (including writing it all down), the other part would be developing my soloing abilities.

To develop my soloing/improvising abilities I would:

1. Pick a key you are NOT comfortable with. If you can kill it in Am, the pick C# major (or something like that). This is a good opportunity to learn your relations - a Major scale along with its Relative Minor. Being able to know those interchangeable scales will help in a variety of improvisational situations because some band leaders ONLY refer to Major keys when calling a song, others will utilize the Minor, others it depends on the tonality of the song based on the progression.

* It is important to know that NONE of this practice happens without a time-keeping device - something to help you stay in time. If you cannot play in time, you will never get ahead.

2. Here's where you want to record/loop a progression. Make sure the loop is in time before you begin practicing improv. If you are a bad rhythm player, your improv will suffer. Remember, you are working in a key you are not familiar with so that you are challenging yourself. Start with staying in one "box". The scale you use is not too important - it could be a 7 note scale or a 5 note scale. What you are focusing on is staying in key and bending your notes in key.

* One of the WORST thing you can "hear" when a guitarist improvises/solos is when they cannot bend a note to proper pitch.

Another focus is on vibrato. An awesome skill is to be able to make 3 notes your whole "solo". You can accomplish this with bending and vibrato. Practice this also - with the I-IV-V looped/recorded progression.

3. MAKE IT FUN. This sounds VERY structured and UN-fun, but if you set goals you can make it fun.

Another thing to consider when practicing your rhythm skills is to vary your "beat". Don't live in straight 4/4 like you would with a lot of Rock. Practice shuffles. Once you reach "proficiency", change up your time signatures. Try 6/8. That's your Waltz pattern. You could find yourself in situations where you are in a jam, and the band leader calls EVERYTHING you rip at - Em, 12 bars, I-IV-V.....you're smiling, you're gonna KILL it.....then the drummer goes into a laid back, 6/8 swing - and ALL you have EVER practiced is up-tempo 4/4!!!! GAH!!!!!

Anyway, I know this doesn't really point you in a direction for "online lessons" but hopefully it helps!! Good luck. Becoming a great player requires some work, but it can be fun work with direction, goal setting, and a solid practice regiment.

 

[Ovibos]

Regarding teachers, I've been doing the online video lessons with Paul Gilbert for a few years. Excellent stuff. He caters his lesson to what you want. It's a "back and forth" between you and him. And you have access to every other student's lesson, which is probably the best part of it - literally thousands of lessons of all levels available to you. There are other "schools" besides the "Rock" school I'm in, including a "blues" school. Check it out:

https://artistworks.com/

I just won a year of this from a contest, and I'm liking it.

I can't do his 'strum holding the pick with three fingers' tho.

 

[walrus]

I just won a year of this from a contest, and I'm liking it.

I can't do his 'strum holding the pick with three fingers' tho.

Me either, I hold the pick as I always have! Paul hasn't said anything to me yet - I've got plenty to work on besides my pick holding! For me, the main issue is working on my timing...

 

[thesuperzman]

Honestly, I'd start with learning my keys. If you want to learn blues improvising, here's the method I'd do (I actually did this)….

1. Learn the basics of the I-IV-V chord progression, including the turn arounds. I would start with one key and play it until it was second nature - believe it or not, that will come quickly if you focus ONLY on that.

My focus here is multi-fold. I am learning to improve my skills as a rhythm guitarist. I am not yet taking/practicing licks/scales because being able to play in the background when it is NOT your turn is important. In order to improve my basic rhythm skills I would employ a drum machine. I would start at a tempo that is comfortable, and once I was "masterful" at that tempo I would increase AND decrease the tempo. Working your progression at various speeds will help improve your rhythm playing.

While I am learning the basic I-IV-V 12 bar blues progression, I would also take the time to open a notebook, while utilizing online resources, and write out my chords and positions. However you do this up to you - tab, notation, simple letter, chord charts...it doesn't matter. What maters is being able to see the patterns on the fretboard.

Speaking of patterns, I would practice my I-IV-V progression in different positions around the neck. This will help with becoming a master of note/chord placement on the fretboard.

2. Once I have "mastered" the concepts of the I-IV-V progression in a (one, single) key, I would move to the other keys - including my flats/sharps. At this point I would begin to alternate my practice. Part of my regiment would be practicing my rhythm playing in various keys (including writing it all down), the other part would be developing my soloing abilities.

To develop my soloing/improvising abilities I would:

1. Pick a key you are NOT comfortable with. If you can kill it in Am, the pick C# major (or something like that). This is a good opportunity to learn your relations - a Major scale along with its Relative Minor. Being able to know those interchangeable scales will help in a variety of improvisational situations because some band leaders ONLY refer to Major keys when calling a song, others will utilize the Minor, others it depends on the tonality of the song based on the progression.

* It is important to know that NONE of this practice happens without a time-keeping device - something to help you stay in time. If you cannot play in time, you will never get ahead.

2. Here's where you want to record/loop a progression. Make sure the loop is in time before you begin practicing improv. If you are a bad rhythm player, your improv will suffer. Remember, you are working in a key you are not familiar with so that you are challenging yourself. Start with staying in one "box". The scale you use is not too important - it could be a 7 note scale or a 5 note scale. What you are focusing on is staying in key and bending your notes in key.

* One of the WORST thing you can "hear" when a guitarist improvises/solos is when they cannot bend a note to proper pitch.

Another focus is on vibrato. An awesome skill is to be able to make 3 notes your whole "solo". You can accomplish this with bending and vibrato. Practice this also - with the I-IV-V looped/recorded progression.

3. MAKE IT FUN. This sounds VERY structured and UN-fun, but if you set goals you can make it fun.

Another thing to consider when practicing your rhythm skills is to vary your "beat". Don't live in straight 4/4 like you would with a lot of Rock. Practice shuffles. Once you reach "proficiency", change up your time signatures. Try 6/8. That's your Waltz pattern. You could find yourself in situations where you are in a jam, and the band leader calls EVERYTHING you rip at - Em, 12 bars, I-IV-V.....you're smiling, you're gonna KILL it.....then the drummer goes into a laid back, 6/8 swing - and ALL you have EVER practiced is up-tempo 4/4!!!! GAH!!!!!

Anyway, I know this doesn't really point you in a direction for "online lessons" but hopefully it helps!! Good luck. Becoming a great player requires some work, but it can be fun work with direction, goal setting, and a solid practice regiment.

Mark - wow! And thank you. Some of this I knew. Some I didn't know, but as a structure to figure out where to go, this helps immensely.

My rhythm is atrocious. One thing I've learned as I focused on one particular on-line course from True Fire was that a particular jam and solo I had to memorize sounded phenomenal when it all happened on the right beat. I never used a metronome, but it's becoming a staple in my practice.

The other thing that I know from my other endeavors but have forgotten with guitar, is to stay out of my comfort zone. So easy to get frustrated and go back to what you know.

For everything I do wrong, interestingly, I seem to bend very close or right at the note. It tells me there is hope for me and that is one hurdle I will not have to face. And vibrato - I'm learning I'm supposed to bend (at least the 1st and 2nd string) toward the 1st. But does it matter that I do it opposite. That's where (like the pinky) I don't do things as I'm now learning should be done. Do I start over or have i compensated adequately. 12 Bar Blues - I know the normal and 'quick' but turn-arounds have always eluded me - this I think is just laziness.

One of the things I'm really struggling with is learning a skill in a particular key or learn it simultaneously across multiple keys. For instance, the Jeff McErlain's course I took from True Fire had me learn EVERYTHING in his basic soloing course in Dm. I was worried about that. Sure enough, as soon as I tried to practice in another key, I almost came to a halt trying to transpose. And forget when I have to go down to the low E and have open and fretted notes. Part of me thinks learning simultaneously is slower but probably more productive. But learning in one key builds a stronger foundation? Funny, or maybe not, learning on the 3rd and 5h, 7th, 9th (and the octave above the 12th), as well as the even frets (without indicators) is easy in relation to the other odd/evens..but the 12th makes it so much tougher when you are doing, say, extended scales.

I do know every note on the fret board - and think that's another advantageous. I'm probably 75% instantaneously and then very quickly on the rest. But - that's where the theory comes in. I know scales. Heck I know modes (somewhat - at least what all seven are..when to use them and their 'feel'). But other than C Major (and A Minor), don't know the notes. That's intimidating in itself - 12 keys, 5/7 notes per scale - learning the cord patterns on it. And know the wwhwwwh and the ionian to the dorian to the phrygian, etc.

See, even writing this I'm overwhelming myself. I am not a perfectionist by any means. But one I set out to do something, I want to do it right and not skip steps.

I've always played on my own and in my own band of one - I'm the full time soloist. I also, even at 46, want to emulate my guitar heroes. So my focus always has been on soloing.

But what I've come to realize in the last week or so, and reaffirmed here - it seems like building that sense of rhythm, through using a metronome and challenging the tempo, may be one of the quickest ways to improve.

Everyone in this community, and particularly on this thread, has overwhelmed me with interest in relating their problems or giving me solutions. Thanks!

That Silver Sky is screaming that it wants to play some killer music and I keep promising that I'm not giving up until I get there!

 

[thesuperzman]

Honestly, I'd start with learning my keys. If you want to learn blues improvising, here's the method I'd do (I actually did this)….

1. Learn the basics of the I-IV-V chord progression, including the turn arounds. I would start with one key and play it until it was second nature - believe it or not, that will come quickly if you focus ONLY on that.

My focus here is multi-fold. I am learning to improve my skills as a rhythm guitarist. I am not yet taking/practicing licks/scales because being able to play in the background when it is NOT your turn is important. In order to improve my basic rhythm skills I would employ a drum machine. I would start at a tempo that is comfortable, and once I was "masterful" at that tempo I would increase AND decrease the tempo. Working your progression at various speeds will help improve your rhythm playing.

While I am learning the basic I-IV-V 12 bar blues progression, I would also take the time to open a notebook, while utilizing online resources, and write out my chords and positions. However you do this up to you - tab, notation, simple letter, chord charts...it doesn't matter. What maters is being able to see the patterns on the fretboard.

Speaking of patterns, I would practice my I-IV-V progression in different positions around the neck. This will help with becoming a master of note/chord placement on the fretboard.

2. Once I have "mastered" the concepts of the I-IV-V progression in a (one, single) key, I would move to the other keys - including my flats/sharps. At this point I would begin to alternate my practice. Part of my regiment would be practicing my rhythm playing in various keys (including writing it all down), the other part would be developing my soloing abilities.

To develop my soloing/improvising abilities I would:

1. Pick a key you are NOT comfortable with. If you can kill it in Am, the pick C# major (or something like that). This is a good opportunity to learn your relations - a Major scale along with its Relative Minor. Being able to know those interchangeable scales will help in a variety of improvisational situations because some band leaders ONLY refer to Major keys when calling a song, others will utilize the Minor, others it depends on the tonality of the song based on the progression.

* It is important to know that NONE of this practice happens without a time-keeping device - something to help you stay in time. If you cannot play in time, you will never get ahead.

2. Here's where you want to record/loop a progression. Make sure the loop is in time before you begin practicing improv. If you are a bad rhythm player, your improv will suffer. Remember, you are working in a key you are not familiar with so that you are challenging yourself. Start with staying in one "box". The scale you use is not too important - it could be a 7 note scale or a 5 note scale. What you are focusing on is staying in key and bending your notes in key.

* One of the WORST thing you can "hear" when a guitarist improvises/solos is when they cannot bend a note to proper pitch.

Another focus is on vibrato. An awesome skill is to be able to make 3 notes your whole "solo". You can accomplish this with bending and vibrato. Practice this also - with the I-IV-V looped/recorded progression.

3. MAKE IT FUN. This sounds VERY structured and UN-fun, but if you set goals you can make it fun.

Another thing to consider when practicing your rhythm skills is to vary your "beat". Don't live in straight 4/4 like you would with a lot of Rock. Practice shuffles. Once you reach "proficiency", change up your time signatures. Try 6/8. That's your Waltz pattern. You could find yourself in situations where you are in a jam, and the band leader calls EVERYTHING you rip at - Em, 12 bars, I-IV-V.....you're smiling, you're gonna KILL it.....then the drummer goes into a laid back, 6/8 swing - and ALL you have EVER practiced is up-tempo 4/4!!!! GAH!!!!!

Anyway, I know this doesn't really point you in a direction for "online lessons" but hopefully it helps!! Good luck. Becoming a great player requires some work, but it can be fun work with direction, goal setting, and a solid practice regiment.

Mark - forgive my indulgence...one last question. I do own a looper. And it's fun. I've heard a lot of people say use it to practice. I get the idea but not the execution. I understand that if you record a loop - if the beginning and end don't sync, it won't work. I also understand that soloing over an out-of-time loop will make it evident that it's a bad rhythm. But that's all about knowing it's bad - is there a particular exercise or skill to suggest how to use a looper to properly work on rhythm? Do I just record a simple I-IV-V and record on top fo that?

 

[Bill SAS 513]

I believe most of the guys here are pretty humble, too...Nobody on this site will say they have nothing more to learn (yeah, yeah, let the responses commence!! LOLOL)
God knows I still gotta ton of musical stuff left to figure out and understand.
My 2 Chunks of advice... Use ALL of your fretting fingers...1 per fret. Chromatic scales were one of the first things I show folks...strengthen them all. (Clapton's not a pinky guy, either)
And...play with anybody you can...whenever time permits. (aaah, Time, that's the bytch!!) Coffee Houses, open mics, etc...And remember that everyone approaches things differently.
At the store, If an experienced guitarist (i.e.: NOT the typical young beginner) is in a rut and asks about lessons, I sometimes recommend sign up for a month or two with one instructor, than try another.
But from where I am, its still mostly about the fun of it. Enjoy, and good luck.

 

[thesuperzman]

I believe most of the guys here are pretty humble, too...Nobody on this site will say they have nothing more to learn (yeah, yeah, let the responses commence!! LOLOL)
God knows I still gotta ton of musical stuff left to figure out and understand.
My 2 Chunks of advice... Use ALL of your fretting fingers...1 per fret. Chromatic scales were one of the first things I show folks...strengthen them all. (Clapton's not a pinky guy, either)
And...play with anybody you can...whenever time permits. (aaah, Time, that's the bytch!!) Coffee Houses, open mics, etc...And remember that everyone approaches things differently.
At the store, If an experienced guitarist (i.e.: NOT the typical young beginner) is in a rut and asks about lessons, I sometimes recommend sign up for a month or two with one instructor, than try another.
But from where I am, its still mostly about the fun of it. Enjoy, and good luck.

Thanks - I'm an expert in other fields. I fully believe in the concept that there is always something else to learn and always someone better and always something to strive for. I also am not happy in the other field of my skills. The difference is I recognize my skill/talent. Here, I don't think I can take credit yet. But this whole thread has been very therapeutic - more than ya'll appreciate.

I got so frustrated yesterday, I stopped practicing and decided not to play the rest of the day (which for me is unbearably hard not to do - but the frustration so bad). But after reading some comments last night, I accepted my limitations and went back at it. It was much more enjoyable.