Just got a 2 channel H 50 watter

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How much gain does the amp have without a boost?

More than I'd ever use. I've never cranked the gain up all the way to find out!

I lost interest in Marshalls when they came out with the JCM800. In fact, it's that model Marshall that caused me to become interested in what Mesa was doing, and I wound up a Mesa player for many years. I like what Mesa does with higher gain amps far better than what Marshall has done since the JCM800.

Something about the tone and texture of the later Marshall models reminds me of a buzz saw - dry and harsh. I just don't enjoy working with that tone.

I realize it's popular, but it's just not my thing. I still love a good Mesa, by the way. Had a Mark V before getting the HXDA, and even the high gain tones were sweet, syrupy, and useful (to me).
 
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Ok, I attempted to edit my last post (and my lame attempt at humor) from my tablet last night and it deleted my whole post.

The more I experiment with the guitar/amp synergy that we've been discussing the more I find that the PRS amps are more suited for the alnico pickup guitars, and the high gain amps seem more suited for ceramic. My C24 with 59/09s sounds great through my Boogie, but squeals like a banshee on the high gain channels unless I cut presence and treble. But the Music Man JP12 just sings through the Mark IIC+ and Mark IV settings. (And makes me wonder if my old C22 with HFS will work better than my newer PRS guitars.

I think I can get the 80s tones I'm after out of the Boogie. Let the PRS do what it does best and maybe play with speakers and tubes a bit to fine tune it. That will leave two things I need to find in the H. Settings that work well with fuzz, and find a really nice D style OD pedal. I think trying greenback speakers will go a long way towards the first goal. Never been fond of fuzz pedals with V30s with any amps I've tried it with.
 
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Wow - sounds like a great, frustrating yet fun journey. A few items of note: Did you find that getting the cabinets up off of the floor helped with the tightness of the bass? Also, when compared to the Peavy, that was an interesting time for Peavy. They caught Fender totally off guard with the lower powered classic amps and they are really well built, great sounding amps. At the time, Fender was trying to sell everyone red knobbed twins which you could their three cities away vs. some of the lower powered vintage deville style amps that are popular now.
 
I think in a prior post, you mentioned the Peavy Classic 30 which for its time was a great amp and really caught Fender by surprise so it sold well. Fender was still trying to sell monster twin reverbs vs, these great little club amps that sounded pretty great. It really forced Fender into the huge reissue wave they have been riding for the past 15 years. The red-knobed evil twin may have been the loudest amp I have ever played through. Good luck with your tube rolling.
 
A friend of mine was supposed to be buying my Mesa Mini Rec and one of my Avatar cabs. He wanted a V30 so I had to pull my Private Jack out of that cab. As I wait for him to get the money together for it, my Private Jack is sitting on the floor. If he comes through, I've got to do some speaker swapping to get the Private Jack back into another closed back cab. Why am I saying all this???

Got tired of waiting to try the H with speakers other than the V30s in the PRS cab. I thought I'd try it with my Emi Red Fan Alnico speaker, which is currently in a 1x12 open back custom cab. The results...

As you know, I've "liked, but not loved" the character of the OD channel on the H since I got it. I've mentioned several times that it was a bit more "modern" than I wanted, and not as British as I wanted. It should be no surprise that the great clean channel of the H sounded fantastic with the Red Fang. But I wasn't even prepared for what I heard once I stepped on the footswitch. Lets just say that while I was not wanting to do speaker surgery just yet on a brand new cab, I think I'll be throwing the Private Jack and the Red Fang in the PRS cab next week. Even with just the Red Fang, the OD channel now sounds fantastic. The upper mids spike of the V30s appears to be the thing I wasn't jibing with, and with even just a 1x12 it was fat and sassy with the Red Fang. More bottom than I've heard from that speaker cab ever, fat and great touch. I didn't write this last night, because I wanted to switch guitars and see if I was still as impressed. I did, and I was.

This amp sounds GREAT with an Alnico speaker!
 
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A friend of mine was supposed to be buying my Mesa Mini Rec and one of my Avatar cabs. He wanted a V30 so I had to pull my Private Jack out of that cab. As I wait for him to get the money together for it, my Private Jack is sitting on the floor. If he comes through, I've got to do some speaker swapping to get the Private Jack back into another closed back cab. Why am I saying all this???

Got tired of waiting to try the H with speakers other than the V30s in the PRS cab. I thought I'd try it with my Emi Red Fan Alnico speaker, which is currently in a 1x12 open back custom cab. The results...

As you know, I've "liked, but not loved" the character of the OD channel on the H since I got it. I've mentioned several times that it was a bit more "modern" than I wanted, and not as British as I wanted. It should be no surprise that the great clean channel of the H sounded fantastic with the Red Fang. But I wasn't even prepared for what I heard once I stepped on the footswitch. Lets just say that while I was not wanting to do speaker surgery just yet on a brand new cab, I think I'll be throwing the Private Jack and the Red Fang in the PRS cab next week. Even with just the Red Fang, the OD channel now sounds fantastic. The upper mids spike of the V30s appears to be the thing I wasn't jibing with, and with even just a 1x12 it was fat and sassy with the Red Fang. More bottom than I've heard from that speaker cab ever, fat and great touch. I didn't write this last night, because I wanted to switch guitars and see if I was still as impressed. I did, and I was.

This amp sounds GREAT with an Alnico speaker!

Excellent experiment that paid off! I'm a big proponent of speakers and cabs making the crucial difference, and for every player it's going to vary.

As as an example, I didn't quite grok my DG30 fully until I got the matching cab. Made all the difference.

One sinister plot I'm hatching is to order a second DG cab loaded with Celestion Alnico Cream 90s. That's a few months off still, but I have a feeling it would sound amazing with both the DG and the HXDA.
 
Yes, it makes a huge difference. I've mentioned this before, but that's why I had about 4 Avatar 1x12 cabs is so I can mix and match one or two speakers with each amp I try to find out what I like best. The deal fell through on my Mini Rec and cab, so I'm going to put the Private Jack back in that Avatar cube and try two Private Jacks next week. And I'll mix in the Red Fang with a PJ. Then... well, the new Creambacks are interesting for sure, but I've had my eye/ear on some Scumbacks for quite a while now.

Also, I watched two Archon videos last night where they compared 6L6 and EL34s. It's time for some EL34s!!! My research lately says that I might want to try some Mullards.
 
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I have a second cab I run with my H sometimes that has a pair of Jensen MOD 50s in it mixed with the PRS cab ( V30s ) I have it just kills but I also have EL34s :)
 
Ok, ready to buy some EL34's to try. Any suggestions?
 
Ok, ready to buy some EL34's to try. Any suggestions?

Besides double-checking with PRS to make sure of what to do, how spendy do you want to get?

The NOS RFT (East German) tubes made for companies like Siemens are excellent values. Winged Cs made in Russia are now out of production, and so are now NOS but very good sounding tubes. Beware of factory seconds that are also out there, however.

NOS Mullards are the gold standard, but very expensive. But there are Mullard, Phillips, Bugle Boy, and other old school tubes that were made as OEM for other companies that can be had for less money.

I'm not sure I'd put any faith into the other current production tubes regardless of the name on the box.
 
Have a look at "The Tubestore", there should be enough info there for starters. I've been using TungSOL lately, their 12AX7 blow Mullard or Brimar away
 
I've been using TungSOL lately, their 12AX7 blow Mullard or Brimar away

With the understanding that whatever works for someone is a good thing, my experience is quite the opposite.

However, I will also say that the TungSols that came in my most recent Two-Rock Custom Reverb Sig were very good sounding for new production tubes.
 
Besides double-checking with PRS to make sure of what to do, how spendy do you want to get?



I'm not sure I'd put any faith into the other current production tubes regardless of the name on the box.

Les, do you mean ask PRS for suggestions?

And, the last sentence is a bit discouraging... To answer your other questions, I don't mind spending say $150-$200 if needed to get a big upgrade, but I was also hoping that the new Mullards or Tung Sol EL34s were good. I've read good reviews on both, but you know how that goes. Initially I had decided on Winged C but as you know prices have jumped since they stopped producing them. That still might be what I get since they may still be under $200. (I wonder if they will start producing them again).

As far as Pre tubes, I've seen a lot of guys, who have a lot of different amps, singing the praises of the Tung Sol for V1. I already have several of those so I can try that before I even buy any more tubes, except...

Where can I get a tube chart with details? My manual for the H lists what tubes are, but nothing more. Where can I get one which shows "V1" "V2" and then says something like "the V1 tube is the first and second gain stages for the OD channel" or such. I haven't seen that info yet.
 
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The biggest improvement yet, for what I want from the amp, has happened over the last few days. As I finally got to do some testing with other speaker types, I quickly found something that I should have tried weeks ago. Due to having an amp and cab sold to a friend and having to move some speakers around to different cabs, I hadn't been able to try it yet. But now I have, and I'm REALLY getting this amp where I want it to be.

Since I got the H, I've tried to get it leaning more towards a Brit type voicing. I finally got to try it with a greenback type speaker last week (my Emi Private Jack). Honeymoon stage is not over yet, but I LOVE this amp with this speaker. I know how important the speaker is in the final voicing of any amp, but wow, this gain channel sounds killer now! This is such a big push in the direction that I wanted, that I really only see this amp leaving for the possibility of a Custom if it's just like this but with a few added features. NO it doesn't sound just like a Marshall now, but the speaker alone makes such a difference that it sounds really great. A bit of the sparkle is gone from the clean channel, but it still sounds really good. The gain channel.... no comparison. WAY WAY better with this speaker.

The only negative in this is.... I switched back over to my new PRS cab last night and immediately said, no, there is the "not quite what I want" sound that I heard the first 3 weeks I had the amp. Good, but not great. Not the voice I want. With the PJ, it's smokin! So that leaves me with a brand new expensive PRS cab that I need to find new speakers for....

One option is to get an H type (Scumback or Creamback) and see if that famous V30/H mix tames the upper mid spike of the V30s that I'm so objecting to with this amp. Or... since V30s and Greenback types don't mix as well, due to a 3dB or so volume difference, replace both with a greenback type speaker. I have two Private Jacks now, but both are 8 ohm so I'd have to run the cab at 4 ohms if I just put them in there. I'd prefer to run it at 8.

So another tone chasing adventure starts. But... I know it's great with one Private Jack in an Avatar 1x so I know this chase will end well.
 
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Les, do you mean ask PRS for suggestions?

No, I meant ask PRS if you can substitute EL34s for 6L6s, and if so, make sure you understand how to bias them correctly.

And, the last sentence is a bit discouraging... To answer your other questions, I don't mind spending say $150-$200 if needed to get a big upgrade, but I was also hoping that the new Mullards or Tung Sol EL34s were good. I've read good reviews on both, but you know how that goes. Initially I had decided on Winged C but as you know prices have jumped since they stopped producing them. That still might be what I get since they may still be under $200. (I wonder if they will start producing them again).

As far as Pre tubes, I've seen a lot of guys, who have a lot of different amps, singing the praises of the Tung Sol for V1. I already have several of those so I can try that before I even buy any more tubes, except...

Where can I get a tube chart with details? My manual for the H lists what tubes are, but nothing more. Where can I get one which shows "V1" "V2" and then says something like "the V1 tube is the first and second gain stages for the OD channel" or such. I haven't seen that info yet.

Here's the thing: back in the day when tubes where what nearly all electronics ran on, including medical equipment, aircraft equipment, and other high-tech stuff at the time, they had to be made to a certain standard. And the equipment tubes were made on was new and well-maintained. The engineers who worked for the companies that made tubes in the 50s, 60s and 70s were highly trained - like today's electronics workers are - and they knew the ins and outs of tube manufacture.

In contrast, today's tubes are mostly made on old or refurbished equipment. The American and European engineers who knew all about making tubes, and keeping the equipment up to snuff, and the tubes up to spec, are either very old now, or dead.

So what's left are the old Eastern Bloc countries, who bought the equipment for the most part from the old manufacturers in the West. Eastern Bloc tubes were never the equal of their US and European counterparts in the first place, and now the equipment that makes them is even older, and the original engineers are probably no longer there, either.

I think it's great that New Sensor - a subsidiary of Electro-Harmonix - found a bunch of old, desirable tubes and had their designs copied. That's a wonderful thing, because eventually the supply of the originals will completely dry up, and guitar players will still want tubes.

But at the same time, these are NOT the original tubes, made in the original US and European factories. There's no longer medical equipment needing tubes. Aircraft no longer need tubes. High end electronics for the most part do not need tubes. The tolerances aren't as tight. The know-how isn't as expert. The secret sauce that made some tubes great and others meh...well...that's gone.

If you buy a bunch of JJ or New Sensor preamp tubes, lots of them will fail within a few days, lots will fail within a few months. I've replaced two on my recently purchased HXDA30 already. On the other hand, well-sourced NOS preamp tubes rarely fail for years.

And they sound better. Noticeably better, which is why the guys like Grissom who are known to be tone gurus use NOS tubes in their amps.

Now, a lot of guys will sing the praises of the newer tubes, but how many have tried the originals? Unknown. I will say that I've tried both, and while the newer tubes are indeed an improvement on some of the crap that was being made earlier, real NOS tubes of the same type sound different. Better? To my ear, yes, but that's my preference. YMMV.

Also, FYI:

V1 = first preamp tube closest to the input jack in every amp I know of. V2 is the next one, etc., etc.
 
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Thanks for the reply Les. I thought I had read that the 2 Channel H could be used with either 6L6 or EL34 as long as you re-biased it but you are right, I'd want to verify that before I go buying EL34s for it.

And yes, I'm aware of all you are saying about the state of tubes these days. There was actually a big discussion several years ago about why someone didn't start a company in the US that built premium tubes. The consensus seemed to be that there just wasn't enough market to justify it. That even if they charged premium prices, due to the fact that they'd last so much longer, us guitar players (who would be the vast majority of their market) wouldn't really need that many because they'd last for years.

Re: The tube info, I'm curious as to why this isn't part of the owners manual. I usually assume that V1 is closest to the input as well, but having a chart of what each tube does makes it a lot simpler to decide what to do when tube rolling. The Mesa amps give details that break down what each side of each tube does, so you can make more educated ideas on what to try in what position to affect the clean vs. the OD channel more, etc. I guess I'm just surprised that this isn't common information. My Mesa amps list this in detail on every one of them I've had.
 
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Thanks for the reply Les. I thought I had read that the 2 Channel H could be used with either 6L6 or EL34 as long as you re-biased it but you are right, I'd want to verify that before I go buying EL34s for it.

I bought a 2 Channel H at the 2012 PRS Experience. While there, I spoke with Doug about biasing the amp. He said to set it for 30mv and that EL34 tubes work fine as long as you adjust the bias for them.
 
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