Judging Amp Tone - It's All So Absurdly Subjective

[László]

I've been preparing notes for presenting a few ideas on a YouTube channel I'm going to create. And I've decided that while I'm going to play some gear in the videos, I'm not going to demo gear in the traditional sense of "Here are all the things this gear can do."

Because honestly, I don't really care to know everything a thing can do; what I care about is whether it can do the thing(s) I like. Seems to me that no one wants to hear a video of me playing music in styles I don't usually play, through an amp set up the way I wouldn't do it, et cetera, et cetera.

On the other hand, I want to present the tone of stuff fairly. Is that even possible?

One of the members here has sung the praises of a new Marshall amp, the Astoria. It comes in 3 models. So I wanted to get a general idea of its sound, and watched a few videos of all 3 models. I heard some things I thought were OK, but nothing to write home about, and was ready to dismiss the amps.

But...

I didn't play through them. I didn't try to set them up for tones I might like. I only know what the guy who set them up HIS way made them sound like. So it would be useless and senseless for me to dismiss them, judge them, or even say that I know how they sound.

This realization led me to think, how on earth am I going to play gear on my YouTube channel once it gets going, if my tastes are so personal and unique to me? Wouldn't any video demo of a given amp be subject to these very same limitations?

And...everyone wants something different. Whether an amp is good, bad or indifferent is so absurdly subjective as to be beyond belief!

And this brings me to a broader, wider question: With so many musical styles, and so many playing styles, and so much diversity in taste, is there even such a thing as a universally great amp?

You couldn't pay me to play a solid state Polytone. But I have jazzer friends who'll play nothing else. They hear my HXDA and react to it as though I was playing a 5150 with the gain full up with a fuzz pedal to boot.

I love the clean tone on my Lone Star with modulation and delay pedals, but I have yet to appreciate much about the overdrive channel. I go running for my HXDA for my overdrive tones. Etc.

I think in the end, the thing to do is be myself, use the gear I like, and let the chips fall where they may. But I'm not sure this is the kind of thing other folks actually want.

And if no one can agree on what constitutes great tone in the first place, what's the point of talking about it as though my opinion even matters?

I suppose these are academic questions, but I do intend to move forward with this video show idea, and it seems that the question of what actually sounds good is fundamental to the concept. Maybe the answer is to just do the best I can, and if the result is interesting enough to be entertaining to my buddies here, that's what really counts.

 

[PRSAK]

I like the way you are approaching this Les. Hey...YouTube is cheap! It's not like you can go wrong. I'll tell you the way I would use your videos...it would be another source to pick up a sound or two that moves me and that I want to incorporate into my playing. (I ain't all that original.) The thing I think is hardest (impossible?) about YT is getting a recording that is representative of the actual sound in front of the amp, though. Personally, I seldom watch amp or guitar demos because I know that the recording itself is usually pretty bad (I know your videos would NOT fall in that category) and also that my computer speakers and listening environment are definitely pretty bad. But...this is the age old dilemma...how do I recreate the sounds I hear on a record with my own rig? Still....Eric Johnson sounds a hell of a lot better with my stereo system system moderately cranked versus what I'm going to hear coming from my computer monitors watching a YT video. (I wonder how many people take the time to set up their computer with a really good sound system? ) That's my problem though and thanks in advance if you make the effort to put a bit of your taste and experience "out there" to inspire others and generate new ideas. That's what it's really all about.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

And if no one can agree on what constitutes great tone in the first place, what's the point of talking about it as though my opinion even matters?

I'm not sure I agree with this.

Let's take music for example. When I seek out recommendations for new music, the first thing I look for in a reviewer is common ground. I have to know if anything they've reviewed or recommended previously is something I ended up liking and enjoying, before I'll accept their recommendations of, "here, you'll like this, try this."

So I'd say establish some common ground first -- let them know what you like, and that way, if they are followers of contemporary metal tones, they'll know not to waste their time with your videos. But if they like that riding-the-edge-of-breakup region of sound, then they can keep on listening. And it doesn't take much -- when Pro Guitar Shop review a pedal, the first minute or two is usually an instrumental with the pedal front and center. If you like what you hear, you keep listening, if you don't, then it's not for you.

 

[bodia]

I'm going to over simplify my answer to keep it short; I'm not going to be tuning in to your YT vids to see how to you got a "good" tone, that's all subjective based on tastes. I'm tuning in to see how you got "that" sound. Mic placement, recording techniques, etc, etc, etc. That's the knowledge I'm really interested in.

 

[veinbuster]

Because honestly, I don't really care to know everything a thing can do; what I care about is whether it can do the thing(s) I like. Seems to me that no one wants to hear a video of me playing music in styles I don't usually play, through an amp set up the way I wouldn't do it, et cetera, et cetera.

I never use all of an amp, and I can't think of anyone I've ever played with who does. We pick amps because there is a place in it that we want to be. Some of us use a wider range than others, but we buy them because some part of its range works.
So, no. I wouldn't be interested in you (or anyone) playing the full range of any bit of gear in a bunch of styles. I am interested in how you got to what you want.

And this brings me to a broader, wider question: With so many musical styles, and so many playing styles, and so much diversity in taste, is there even such a thing as a universally great amp?

I think there are universally great amps, but not all of them hit the sweet spot of where my tastes are. Or maybe more correctly, not all of them are best at the sound I'm interested in playing with - that doesn't make them any less great.

I think in the end, the thing to do is be myself, use the gear I like, and let the chips fall where they may. But I'm not sure this is the kind of thing other folks actually want.

Yes, be yourself and use gear you like. Anybody who doesn't want that can stop watching, not subscribe, just carry on with their life.

And if no one can agree on what constitutes great tone in the first place, what's the point of talking about it as though my opinion even matters?

Again, I think their are great tones most can agree on - easier if you just say "these 10 things sound great" than if you try to rank them or presume to be all inclusive. I like those conversations when they are about what an individual likes rather than what other people like.

And I'm quite interested in what Bodia mentioned: how do you capture the tone? In particular I'd be very interested in any thoughts you offered on how different the video sounded than what it sounded like in the room where it was recorded.

 

[László]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the insights and advice!

My takeaway is that how to achieve and use the tones I get is more important than demoing the tones. Does this sound right?

And I'm quite interested in what Bodia mentioned: how do you capture the tone? In particular I'd be very interested in any thoughts you offered on how different the video sounded than what it sounded like in the room where it was recorded.

The recording process will be via my usual audio recording gear, synced to picture. So there will be one or more room mics to pick up conversation, along with close mics to pick up amps and acoustic instruments. The blend may or may not work, but the room mics will be on separate channels, so it's always possible to 86 them during musical passages.

On the other hand, I'm more interested in getting the recordings to sound like records than like gear demos. So I do plan to use my usual processing and explain what I did in each case to get things sounding the way I think works best - and that seems to be what you're asking for if I'm understanding the comments correctly?

On the other hand, once I'm in the process, some of these plans may work, some not. So I guess we shall just have to see. We're doing a test shoot at my studio tomorrow; Charlene, our videographer/studio manager, isn't sure that my studio will have the right vibe for videos in the first place. So we might wind up picking another spot.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I understand your feeling that you playing Megadeth with a scooped Marshall based metal tone is not you cup of tea for demo ideas. However, the really informative, IMHO worthwhile video demos are the ones that tend to show the range of the product, and not just "here is this amp/pedal/guitar/ doing the tone I like best for it" type demos.

No better example than an amp you had and I have, the Mark V. I know this is an extreme example, but proves my point. How useful would a Mark V demo be if the guy only showed one type of tones. "Here's my strat into the clean channel and this is the only way I use the amp in my bluegrass group." Ok, I know that's wrong because the guy would use a Tele. LOL Anyway, Some amps have a few, some VERY few sweet spots. Hitting those would show the best the amp can do, but only showing one tone with one guitar,etc.... not saying it's bad, just not as useful FOR ME as a more thorough demo of the amps capabilities.

When I show someone my POD HD500, I seem to change styles with each preset! And I'm not claiming to be a master of all styles, by any means, but I'll go form Jazzy to country (ouch) to classic rock to metal to prog to chug.... as I change through presets, I try to play something that fits the tone. Another extreme example, but how useful is a demo of an AmpliFire, Kemper, Axe... that shows one tone. It's useful, in that it can show that it does one thing very well, but not as useful IMHO, was one that more quickly shows highlights of a BUNCH of things it can do.

Thing is, and you hit on this yourself, we don't all like the same things so unless the one thing you do is right up my alley, the tone you dial may be nothing more than a "yeah, that's cool. I might use that a little" demo for me, while for that smaller group that does exactly what you do, it's a perfect demo that sells them on the produce. Again, just a much more limited scope.

All of this is of course, IMHO, YMMV, and the '"consult your physician...." thing.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

My takeaway is that how to achieve and use the tones I get is more important than demoing the tones. Does this sound right?

In a word, yes.

 

[bodia]

In a word, yes.

Ditto!

 

[elvis]

IMO there are plenty of vids that show either a range of tone snippets or a specific infamous tone (i.e. MOP for the Mark amps).

I generally get the most from finding a video (or forum post) that gives settings for a tone the poster has dialed in and uses. It may not be for me, or it may change my life. I have always had a difficult time dialing in good tones, and if it weren't for finding vids where each person demo'd their personal tone, I'd likely never find what helps me the most.

I think it would help to title the vids as to what general category the tone might be: surf, blues, jazz, garage band, general purpose, etc. I think that there are too many "grail tone" videos. Which grail?

 

[Deleted member 5962]

yes, settings are a must. That way, if I have the same amp and dial it and don't hear the same thing, I can go to the other variables and adjust accordingly, but I know where the tone came from.

 

[László]

[QUOTE="DreamTheaterRules, post: 270028, member: 5962"However, the really informative, IMHO worthwhile video demos are the ones that tend to show the range of the product, and not just "here is this amp/pedal/guitar/ doing the tone I like best for it" type demos. [/QUOTE]

My purpose definitely isn't to demo products. That's for guys getting paid to demo them, like Pete Thorn. I have three amps, and I'm not buying more just to be the king of demos. I don't even own a dirt pedal, so that's not getting demo'd either. If I get one, maybe I'll demo it, though let's face it, we all know how to operate a fuzz or an OD. The question is, do we all know how to gain stage an amp for recording, along with the mic and the mic preamp? That may be a more important topic for me to go over, or am I off track here?

Moreover, if I were to dial up a metal tone, I still wouldn't know what to play with it, because I don't play that style of music. So it'd be fairly useless.

On the other hand, what I'd prefer to do is show folks how I use products that I have, and/or explain and give examples of why they work for me.

So...maybe the best thing in my case is just to feel my way in the dark, see how things turn out, etc. If people like the show, great. If not, I'll stop doing them soon enough.

If things work out, great, I'll do more, and if not, I've lost nothing.

 

[elvis]

Sounds great. You probably have a ton of stuff to share with respect to setting up for recording.

 

[dsenoj]

Les, I'll definitely watch your videos.

 

[veinbuster]

what I'd prefer to do is show folks how I use products that I have, and/or explain and give examples of why they work for me.

Perfect.

 

[justmund]

I like your idea Les, that it being more about the journey than the destination. It would be really cool if you discuss your goal at the start, then start with all the knobs at 12 o'clock, a 57 on the grill, then talk about what you're doing to get where you're going.

If that makes sense.

 

[László]

I like your idea Les, that it being more about the journey than the destination. It would be really cool if you discuss your goal at the start, then start with all the knobs at 12 o'clock, a 57 on the grill, then talk about what you're doing to get where you're going.

If that makes sense.

Yeah, it does make sense, and I think one video will be that kind of exercise.

Tomorrow we're going to do a test, to simply see how the studio looks on camera - we're not 100% sure it's the right place to do these videos, actually - and of course, try to figure out if I look/sound like too much of an idiot to make the whole deal worthwhile. I've asked Charlene to brutally criticize me That'll be hard for her, because she's a nice person.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Bangin'!

I've asked Charlene to brutally criticize me That'll be hard for her, because she's a nice person.

Better her than YouTube commenters... and you think I'm a d!ck?

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, it does make sense, and I think one video will be that kind of exercise.

Tomorrow we're going to do a test, to simply see how the studio looks on camera - we're not 100% sure it's the right place to do these videos, actually - and of course, try to figure out if I look/sound like too much of an idiot to make the whole deal worthwhile. I've asked Charlene to brutally criticize me That'll be hard for her, because she's a nice person.

 

[aristotle]

All sounds great Les. I'm actually looking forward to see what I can glean from your recording setup. All I know how to do is to run a decent mic through a pre-amp and into a zoom recorder. Load that into Audacity after the fact to adjust the level and output a mono recording. Every time I look into "interfaces", pro-tools and the like, it just looks like so many virtual knobs and buttons that I get the sense that I'd have to learn everything just in order to know how to set up the 5% that I'd actually use if I wanted to try and produce something. There are a bunch of things I'll bet that are just obvious and second nature to you that you might not think to make a point of it, but maybe will come through in your vids.

Regarding the Astoria, I'm the guilty party on that one. It's a perfect example of how clips don't seem to have any relation to what the amp actually does. You still may not end up liking it if you actually played through it, but I'm guessing that it'd be way different than what you hear in clips. Another (opposite) example is that I love the sound of Tweed amps and Vox amps in recordings. I can't tolerate the ClassA-ish Tweeds or the harsh AC30 tones live in the band settings in which I've tried them though.

The examples that you post sound fantastic. But for most of your stuff, I'd never be able to tell which ones use the DG30 and which ones use the HX/DA if you didn't tell us ahead of time. I'll bet a large sum of money though that when you were making the music, the interaction of a particular amp with a particular guitar was key in getting the final product that you end up with, and if you used the DG30 in place of the HX/DA, the end result would be quite different because the amps (and guitars) make you approach it different.

Looking forward to it one way or the other...

And here is why I hate to post clips.... My take on the Astoria Custom. It certainly doesn't sound great in this, and it isn't necessarily set to produce tones that anybody would chase. It's really me just noodling around and exploring the amp. But it does show why I like it so much. Notice how much the gain of the amp is affected by just making small adjustments to the tone knob. The amp is just super responsive. That makes me feel all warm and gooey when playing it live with a band because you can play your tone off of the rest of the band, the room and your mood in a way that just works for the stuff we do. Would that matter to me if I was using the amp to record a song in a studio? I have no clue since I've never done that before.