It’s official…

[Lola]

Sorry to butt in. For me, they aren’t. Even with some of the very complex Prog I listen to and play some of, I’ve refused to make music about math. Caged, triads and all this stuff… you guys are too smart for me. I figure out what I want to know by ear, and play it. I don’t obsess over all these terms and knowledge. I don’t obsess over the theory behind it. In fact, every time I spend any time at all learning what one of these things actually means, it’s something I did or knew how to play, but without knowing the “term” or what everyone called it. I’m too old to spend hours trying to learn what I’m doing.

Learning songs is how I learn to do things. I’ve never felt I needed to take more time to learn the theory of what I’m doing. Guess that makes me a hack, but I’m OK with that.

But we’re not you!

Some of us need a road map at times to follow! Everybody has their own take on how they learn. This is mine!!
Btw I am NOT obsessing!!

These terms were created so that musicians can converse with one another. I can’t go and blindly play something without knowing why. Maybe you don’t need the why but I do. It helps me to understand things better.

You sound like you never have to struggle but I do trying to learn!! Hence the questions! You don’t learn if you don’t ask!!

 

[vchizzle]

Sorry to butt in. For me, they aren’t. Even with some of the very complex Prog I listen to and play some of, I’ve refused to make music about math. Caged, triads and all this stuff… you guys are too smart for me. I figure out what I want to know by ear, and play it. I don’t obsess over all these terms and knowledge. I don’t obsess over the theory behind it. In fact, every time I spend any time at all learning what one of these things actually means, it’s something I did or knew how to play, but without knowing the “term” or what everyone called it. I’m too old to spend hours trying to learn what I’m doing.

Learning songs is how I learn to do things. I’ve never felt I needed to take more time to learn the theory of what I’m doing. Guess that makes me a hack, but I’m OK with that.

I’ve always played by ear. At one point I learned all the modes and how everything connects on the fretboard. I took music theory in high school as well. But, if you don’t use it, you lose it. I’ve long forgotten most of it. Our bass player is schooled. By the time we started playing together, I’d already forgotten most of it. I can still connect modal shapes but can’t name most of what I do anymore. It would be quicker for me in some instances if I remembered that stuff but I hear what I want to do in my head and figure it out. I need mass repetition of doing something to remember things by name. It would take more time for me to remember what everything is called than to just figure out what I want to play. Thinking out the details removes the feeling and instinct of inspiration that I initially had. So I just do it my way. Doesn’t make it right or better for most people. Just the way I operate. There are times I wish I was more adept in the other aspects.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

But we’re not you!

Some of us need a road map at times to follow! Everybody has their own take on how they learn. This is mine!!
Btw I am NOT obsessing!!

These terms were created so that musicians can converse with one another. I can’t go and blindly play something without knowing why. Maybe you don’t need the why but I do. It helps me to understand things better.

You sound like you never have to struggle but I do trying to learn!! Hence the questions! You don’t learn if you don’t ask!!

Oh my… I didn’t mean to offend anyone. What I guess I didn’t say very well was pretty much what Vchizzle said. For me, learning how to hear and play the right thing my ear wants to hear, whether it’s learning someone else’s riff note for note, or improvising my own solos, it was more important to develop my ear to do that then it was to learn theory and shapes from “book knowledge.” Learning to hear something and figure out how to play it, is way more appealing to me, than reading the theory and reading tab. IMHO, developing the ear, and the ability to translate what you hear, and what you want to hear, is more important than knowledge of theory. And I say that from years of playing with guys who could read 4 million chords and knew the theory but can’t play leads hardly at all, or only simple ones and with no soul or feel.

But again, that’s my opinion and what works for me. It’s absolutely not to say that anyone else should do it my way, or imply in any way that it’s the correct or only way. Again, not to offend anyone, just to say what I do.

 

[vchizzle]

Oh my… I didn’t mean to offend anyone. What I guess I didn’t say very well was pretty much what Vchizzle said. For me, learning how to hear and play the right thing my ear wants to hear, whether it’s learning someone else’s riff note for note, or improvising my own solos, it was more important to develop my ear to do that then it was to learn theory and shapes from “book knowledge.” Learning to hear something and figure out how to play it, is way more appealing to me, than reading the theory and reading tab. IMHO, developing the ear, and the ability to translate what you hear, and what you want to hear, is more important than knowledge of theory. And I say that from years of playing with guys who could read 4 million chords and knew so the theory but can’t play leads hardly at all, or only simple ones and with no soul or feel.

But again, that’s my opinion and what works for me. It’s absolutely not to say that anyone else should do it my way, or imply in any way that it’s the correct or only way. Again, not to offend anyone, just to say what I do.

I’ll butt right back out now.

It’s all good. The best part is there’s a million ways to learn and progress these days. Back in the day it was sheet music or learning by ear. It was “amazing” when tab came along and those star licks VHS tapes you could buy or rest to get visual learners in the game!

 

[JasonE]

So is it imperative to learn the “caged” shapes to get a grip on the triad shapes all over the neck I really don’t want to learn this if I just need to learn triads. It would be redundant then.

No, you don’t.

So can you explain why I don’t need the caged shapes for this? I need to know why as this will help dissect this puzzle a little better for my understanding.

The triads are contained in the caged shapes. The additional content doesn’t benefit your understanding. The triads will always stay the same, and they are easier to play.

Caged shapes are just one of many models used to try and explain how to play in different keys. That model works best for people who are strumming chords. I found my playing is much more expressive without depending on barre chords, which is basically what caged is expressing.

I agree with @veinbuster, you don't need to learn the CAGES system to learn the triads. In fact, if you learn the triads first the CAGED system will probably make more sense and be easier to learn when you get there, if you want to go there, because you will already know a good part of it.

We should start a new thread up dedicated to this since this is off topic from the original thread. This is all good information to discuss IMHO.

 

[JasonE]

I’ve always played by ear. At one point I learned all the modes and how everything connects on the fretboard. I took music theory in high school as well. But, if you don’t use it, you lose it. I’ve long forgotten most of it. Our bass player is schooled. By the time we started playing together, I’d already forgotten most of it. I can still connect modal shapes but can’t name most of what I do anymore. It would be quicker for me in some instances if I remembered that stuff but I hear what I want to do in my head and figure it out. I need mass repetition of doing something to remember things by name. It would take more time for me to remember what everything is called than to just figure out what I want to play. Thinking out the details removes the feeling and instinct of inspiration that I initially had. So I just do it my way. Doesn’t make it right or better for most people. Just the way I operate. There are times I wish I was more adept in the other aspects.

Oh my… I didn’t mean to offend anyone. What I guess I didn’t say very well was pretty much what Vchizzle said. For me, learning how to hear and play the right thing my ear wants to hear, whether it’s learning someone else’s riff note for note, or improvising my own solos, it was more important to develop my ear to do that then it was to learn theory and shapes from “book knowledge.” Learning to hear something and figure out how to play it, is way more appealing to me, than reading the theory and reading tab. IMHO, developing the ear, and the ability to translate what you hear, and what you want to hear, is more important than knowledge of theory. And I say that from years of playing with guys who could read 4 million chords and knew the theory but can’t play leads hardly at all, or only simple ones and with no soul or feel.

But again, that’s my opinion and what works for me. It’s absolutely not to say that anyone else should do it my way, or imply in any way that it’s the correct or only way. Again, not to offend anyone, just to say what I do.

I’ll butt right back out now.

Many people learn the rules to learn how to play and understand what they are doing. Then they sort of forget that once trained so it isn't in their way of playing. I have done that to some extent. I still enjoy discussing the theory though because it makes me think differently about my playing and usually causes me to bring something back that I haven't touched in a while that gives me some different direction to take my playing to keep things interesting.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Totally get that.

 

[dmatthews]

Totally get that.

You're all good here mate.

 

[László]

Sorry to butt in. For me, they aren’t. Even with some of the very complex Prog I listen to and play some of, I’ve refused to make music about math. Caged, triads and all this stuff… you guys are too smart for me. I figure out what I want to know by ear, and play it. I don’t obsess over all these terms and knowledge. I don’t obsess over the theory behind it. In fact, every time I spend any time at all learning what one of these things actually means, it’s something I did or knew how to play, but without knowing the “term” or what everyone called it. I’m too old to spend hours trying to learn what I’m doing.

Learning songs is how I learn to do things. I’ve never felt I needed to take more time to learn the theory of what I’m doing. Guess that makes me a hack, but I’m OK with that.

I don't think it makes you a hack at all. If you have a good ear, that's a powerful thing.

I write original music, so knowing a little theory in addition to the ear helps. It often takes me in new directions to consider a variety of options I might not otherwise consider. The more I use theory to discover combinations of notes, well, happy accidents occur.

But there are some excellent film and TV composers who work with orchestras on major projects who can't read music, just compose it and hire orchestrators to write it all out, and conductors to handle the recording sessions.

We're all different.

 

[László]

Come to think of it, it's nice to have a halfway decent understanding of what the historic great composers (whether classical or in popular genres) were thinking about when they made the choices they did.

I figure if I have some insight into their creative process, it'll help mine as often as not. Certainly can't hurt.

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

I don't think it makes you a hack at all. If you have a good ear, that's a powerful thing.

I write original music, so knowing a little theory in addition to the ear helps. It often takes me in new directions to consider a variety of options I might not otherwise consider. The more I use theory to discover combinations of notes, well, happy accidents occur.

But there are some excellent film and TV composers who work with orchestras on major projects who can't read music, just compose it and hire orchestrators to write it all out, and conductors to handle the recording sessions.

We're all different.

On the first line- I totally agree with this. To me, a MOST powerful thing. Meaning, that's why I said what I posted above about learning theory just not holding an importance too me. I DO NOT intend in any way to insinuate that I am, or my way is, superior or "right." Just that it's what works for me. My friend that I referenced is a good singer, and a SOLID rhythm guitar player. You could rattle off the most obscure chords and he knew them all, and had a good sense of rhythm, etc. But ask him to play a lead or especially make one up, and he was lost. Now, if you said A,G,D,G he could play those notes to a solo. He knew theory and a million chords. He was an engineer (designed the Stealth bomber! My dad always said he was the smartest man he ever knew) And, I started in classical music, so I did learn some theory, but I was young. I was playing Bach, Chopin etc., but while it may be in there somewhere, I haven't retained conscious knowledge of any of the theory.

I've just always done things by ear since I started playing guitar. Funny (to me) story about that. When I first started playing, I learned a bunch of songs, but some of them it would drive me crazy because there would be a note in the song I couldn't get down too. I had no idea until over a year later, that some of the stuff I was playing (Hendrix, Trower and others) were using half step down tuning. So I'd literally find the lowest note on an album, tune the low E string to that, tune the rest of the guitar to that, and then relearn the songs! Imagine how much easier some of them got when some of the riffs that I thought were tricky to play were especially tricky because they were using open strings in spots of the riff and in the wrong tuning I could not do that. Once retuned, some of those songs became MUCH easier to play.

More fun notes: It was not uncommon at all back then, to literally have to retune your guitar for almost every song on an album that you were playing along with! Whether it was speeded up/slowed down tape, or another thing that I read was common when there were only guitars and bass back then: Everyone would just tune to each other. SO, if the main guitar was just a bit flat of true A440, but in tune with itself, the bass would tune to the guitar and off they'd go recording a song. Or, the bass player would come in to do his part and the tape speed was off one way or the other so he'd have to tune to the guitar at the speed the tape was playing. (And there are MANY songs from back then, when one or more instruments are simply not in perfect tune with the others!) SO to play along, you were constantly retuning during the first verse of many songs, or for some (Early Ozzie!) literally stopping the album to retune between songs.

And yes, I know I talk too much at lunchtime.

 

[László]

More fun notes: It was not uncommon at all back then, to literally have to retune your guitar for almost every song on an album that you were playing along with! Whether it was speeded up/slowed down tape, or another thing that I read was common when there were only guitars and bass back then: Everyone would just tune to each other. SO, if the main guitar was just a bit flat of true A440, but in tune with itself, the bass would tune to the guitar and off they'd go recording a song. Or, the bass player would come in to do his part and the tape speed was off one way or the other so he'd have to tune to the guitar at the speed the tape was playing. (And there are MANY songs from back then, when one or more instruments are simply not in perfect tune with the others!) SO to play along, you were constantly retuning during the first verse of many songs, or for some (Early Ozzie!) literally stopping the album to retune between songs.

And yes, I know I talk too much at lunchtime.

First, whatever works for a player is great. Doesn't matter what it is, this is art.

I think of music as plastic, in the original sense of the word meaning a substance easily shaped or molded, which is where the term we all think of with the word plastic originated.

That's the beauty of it. You can shape it to your ideas. It can be anything the musician wants it to be.

And you bet, lots of music was recorded deliberately at slower tape speeds using Varispeed so the player could do the fast bits more easily, and then brought back to normal speed, or even had the tape speed increased. Even the Beatles did it. It was done for singers to hit impossibly high harmonies as well.

The analog multitrack and two track mastering machines I was using in the early '90s for ad music projects had Varispeed. It worked. We'd use it for special effects, too. Fun times!

PS, you're not talking too much, it makes for interesting conversation (to me, anyway).

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

First, whatever works for a player is great. Doesn't matter what it is, this is art.

I think of music as plastic, in the original sense of the word meaning a substance easily shaped or molded, which is where the term we all think of with the word plastic originated.

That's the beauty of it. You can shape it to your ideas. It can be anything the musician wants it to be.

And you bet, lots of music was recorded deliberately at slower tape speeds using Varispeed so the player could do the fast bits more easily, and then brought back to normal speed, or even had the tape speed increased. Even the Beatles did it. It was done for singers to hit impossibly high harmonies as well.

The analog multitrack and two track mastering machines I was using in the early '90s for ad music projects had Varispeed. It worked. We'd use it for special effects, too. Fun times!

PS, you're not talking too much, it makes for interesting conversation (to me, anyway).

I love reading about the creation of some of that classic stuff from the 60s, 70s, etc. Like I said, think about learning a Trower song in standard tuning... I was playing every low E an octave higher and knew it was wrong, but at that time knew enough to be stupid... I thought it was only tape speed that was off. Didn't know they actually tuned down a half step. Think about all the riffs that featured an open string... that I was playing somewhere else. LOL

But yeah, listen to an old album and it doesn't bother you. But play along and literally EVERY song is very slightly different tuning and it drives you crazy. And, I've told this story before, but it DROVE ME NUTS that I'd get a Zeppelin album and play all the seemingly harder electric songs within a week, but the acoustic one I just could not figure out. Of course, years later, hearing all the weird tunings he used, it all became crystal clear. IMMEDIATELY learned The Rain Song (LOVE THAT SONG!) when I read the tuning used in GP magazine.

Oh also have read about bands that used to speed up the final printed tracks, just to make the guitar player faster (Vinnie Vincent! and others). I remember getting his album and even after playing Frank Marino stuff, thinking "dang this guy can fly!" But I knew something was wrong with it from the start...the pitch of things didn't seem right... I found out a couple years later that the tracks were speeded up just to make him sound even faster. (Neat trick... I should have thought of that back when everyone wanted to be the fastest! HAHAHAHA).

Back to more of the main topic: I do enjoy reading when someone breaks down the theory of what they are doing. I read or listen to it, just to see if I pick up something that actually resonates or sticks with me. I've seen multiple times Petrucci would start talking about why he did what he did in a certain place (get's over my head quickly, so don't make fun of me for this...LOL) "The chords are going from 7 to 5 to diminished 2 so I played the solo was a blah blah but the 7 and 5 notes in the solo hit right on the 7 and 5 chords and then I diminished minor.... " and I"m glazing over by then. Meanwhile, the whole song completely registers harmonically in my head. Do I don't know or "get" the theory part, but I know exactly what he played and why it sounds the way it does. And, within my abilities which are certainly not on his level, can "hear" it well enough to figure out how to play it.

 

[László]

Meanwhile, the whole song completely registers harmonically in my head. Do I don't know or "get" the theory part, but I know exactly what he played and why it sounds the way it does. And, within my abilities which are certainly not on his level, can "hear" it well enough to figure out how to play it.

The difficult trick that Petrucci does, however, is to create the solo in the first place.

I'm sure you'd agree that reproducing and interpreting music is often a different skill.

Not that one's inherently better or worse than the other; symphony orchestras are loaded with virtuoso players who don't write music, but I have a great deal of respect for them.

Many symphony players can write circles around my compositions, but many can't. I'm good with either skill.

I had to reference a bit of theory to come up with parts of this, but used my ear a lot, too. You just never know with this stuff. Gotta go where it takes you. Not that I'm holding this up as a model of greatness, it certainly isn't. But I needed to do some woodshedding in order to do it.

Action No. 1

Action No. 1 by Leslie Schefman

leslieschefman.com

 

[Lola]

Sorry to butt in. For me, they aren’t. Even with some of the very complex Prog I listen to and play some of, I’ve refused to make music about math. Caged, triads and all this stuff… you guys are too smart for me. I figure out what I want to know by ear, and play it. I don’t obsess over all these terms and knowledge. I don’t obsess over the theory behind it. In fact, every time I spend any time at all learning what one of these things actually means, it’s something I did or knew how to play, but without knowing the “term” or what everyone called it. I’m too old to spend hours trying to learn what I’m doing.

Learning songs is how I learn to do things. I’ve never felt I needed to take more time to learn the theory of what I’m doing. Guess that makes me a hack, but I’m OK with that.

You certainly have a strange way with words and to be honest NOT very encouraging or very supportive to a fellow musician.

 

[JasonE]

You certainly have a strange way with words and to be honest NOT very encouraging or very supportive to a fellow musician.

What am I missing here? I haven't read anything critical or discouraging to anyone else in what was posted. He has just been explaining what he does and what works for him. That doesn't mean it works for everyone, or even anyone else but him. Sorry to but in but I am confused.

 

[Lola]

What am I missing here? I haven't read anything critical or discouraging to anyone else in what was posted. He has just been explaining what he does and what works for him. That doesn't mean it works for everyone, or even anyone else but him. Sorry to but in but I am confused.

Every idea or what I like is boring! I wanted to start playing more blues. I am just trying to find my niche. Blues is boring, my favourite band is boring according or now obsession comes into the mix according to who? Different strokes for different folks.

If you got told everything you do or attempt to do is boring is not very encouraging or positive in my opinion.

 

[JasonE]

Every idea or what I like is boring! I wanted to start playing more blues. I am just trying to find my niche. Blues is boring, my favourite band is boring according to ?

We all like what we like. I personally love blues. I wouldn't take someone else's opinion of a genera as a knock on what I like. You have to go with what you like. That is where you will find your excitement and motivation. Do it for you and ignore what anyone else thinks about it. I am sure I like stuff that people on here would hate. I have a pretty wide listening range and like a lot of different music. For me, it is all about the energy a song has and how interesting it is to listen to.

I can't stand most jazz. Yep, I said it. I have only heard a few jazz songs that I liked and a real jazz head would probably say that those songs barely pass as jazz and may be more blues. Does that mean jazz sucks for everyone? Well, maybe. However, I know that isn't true. There are some folks that love it. I also know that there are some playing techniques in jazz that sound cool and can be used in other genera's of music.

 

[bodia]

You certainly have a strange way with words and to be honest NOT very encouraging or very supportive to a fellow musician.

Completely disagree. He has gone out of his way to support people and their struggles to learn. Don't read more into it than what is there.

 

[vchizzle]

I’m fairly certain I’m going through a midlife crisis at this point. “Crisis” may seem over dramatic.
It’s too bad my hours at work are down and I need to watch spending more. Seems like it’d be fun go the route of buy the fancy car, pickup women half my age and end up in a ditch somewhere!