In Praise Of The '20th Anniversary of PS' PS

[garrett]

Glad it's living up to expectations, Les. And since you're such a pillar of this community I shall choose to overlook your blasphemous Telecaster comments. Seriously though, my Singlecut is proving to make a great "Tele" using the splits. It's the only guitar I need on a gig that covers country to hard rock.

The one thing I feel this PS model is lacking is the SPLAP switches for the 408s. A blend knob to mix the neck and bridge pickups would put it over the top. And a maple neck! Okay, I'll shut up now.

 

[László]

The one thing I feel this PS model is lacking is the SPLAP switches for the 408s. A blend knob to mix the neck and bridge pickups would put it over the top. And a maple neck! Okay, I'll shut up now.

Ha! Well, I had those switches on my Sig Limited in the past, but honestly I rarely used them and mostly kept the guitar in humbucker mode. However, the switching positions with the middle pickup are much more interesting (to me) than those switch positions were, making this guitar more versatile.

I prefer mahogany necks to maple. A personal preference thing. I'm sure Paul would make you a Private Stock with all the bells and whistles you want, though!

 

[László]

But one issue I have now is that the neck pickup (and to a degree the 2&4 positions) seem to want a bit more high end.

I found this picture of John McLaughlin playing his 408-equipped PRS on the neck pickup (check out the switch position)...he played at the PRS 30th Anniversary Event, and man, did he ever kill it.

I've also had two other 408N neck pickups on my 408 and Signature Limited, so I knew pretty much what I was getting into when I bought the 20th. However, the 20th is "more guitar" than my 408 or Sig Ltd.s were, but I think one would expect that in a PS with further innovations. By "more guitar" I mean it has a bigger sound, and a lot more sustain.

 

[greiswig]

I feel like there is a bit of defensiveness reacting to my comments, and I'm not sure I understand why. Forgive me if I misrepresented my thoughts. All I mean is...Different strokes. I'm not surprised that Les has different taste than I have. I have always favored guitars where the tonal balance shifting pickup positions doesn't require me to do anything to a tone knob on either the guitar or the amp. It helps me focus my limited brain cells on the playing. And ideally, I prefer my guitars to be in the same ballpark overall when I gig, so switching between them during a set doesn't require me to totally rejigger the gain, tone stack, etc. So I may have different goals from some.

This guitar is absolutely fantastic, make no mistake. It isn't perfect for me right out of the box, but I don't think that should be interpreted by anyone as a slight on PRS, the designers, the pickups, or other purchasers of the guitar.

Is it a slight on the "Paul's Guitar" pickups that for some reason PRS ended up putting a .022uF cap in the signal path apparently as a high-pass filter? I'm thinking about trying the same thing to tame some of the lows on the neck pickup, because for my purposes, my tastes, and my equipment the neck sounds almost too big relative to the other pickup positions. It's also a kind of classic issue for 22 fret instruments, but that harmonic area is also really a sweet spot to me to have a pickup in.

Again, I don't think of any of this as a slight, any more than someone changing wheels on a new car is faulting the manufacturer for their taste in wheels.

 

[László]

I feel like there is a bit of defensiveness reacting to my comments, and I'm not sure I understand why. Forgive me if I misrepresented my thoughts. All I mean is...Different strokes. I'm not surprised that Les has different taste than I have. I have always favored guitars where the tonal balance shifting pickup positions doesn't require me to do anything to a tone knob on either the guitar or the amp. It helps me focus my limited brain cells on the playing. And ideally, I prefer my guitars to be in the same ballpark overall when I gig, so switching between them during a set doesn't require me to totally rejigger the gain, tone stack, etc. So I may have different goals from some.

This guitar is absolutely fantastic, make no mistake. It isn't perfect for me right out of the box, but I don't think that should be interpreted by anyone as a slight on PRS, the designers, the pickups, or other purchasers of the guitar.

Is it a slight on the "Paul's Guitar" pickups that for some reason PRS ended up putting a .022uF cap in the signal path apparently as a high-pass filter? I'm thinking about trying the same thing to tame some of the lows on the neck pickup, because for my purposes, my tastes, and my equipment the neck sounds almost too big relative to the other pickup positions. It's also a kind of classic issue for 22 fret instruments, but that harmonic area is also really a sweet spot to me to have a pickup in.

Again, I don't think of any of this as a slight, any more than someone changing wheels on a new car is faulting the manufacturer for their taste in wheels.

Didn't mean to come off as defensive! Sorry if I gave that impression.

I just didn't want folks reading this thread to come away with the idea that the guitar is dull-sounding or somehow deficient in its tone - for most mortals.

I had posted a Soundcloud link here on the Forum of a demo of the guitar in all switch positions, clean and dirty, with only one amp setting, when I got it in January. Unfortunately, I was a bit embarrassed by my playing due to the nerve issue in my hand, so I took it down; I can't provide a tone link at this moment, only a verbal description.

Otherwise, I'd just have posted the link and let people hear the whole shebang and reach their own conclusions about the various settings on the guitar.

I will create another clip of the guitar on a day when the hand is feeling up to snuff.

Incidentally, what other gear are you using the guitar with? I'm always curious to know what other folks are doing.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I'll say it again. Truly spectacular guitar. I've never even played a 408 so I'm not familiar with those pickups, but I've heard them and what I heard sounded great. But the NF middle, I can back you up on! (Actually, the NF in any of the 3 positions is smokin great!)

And I feel your pain, Les. I couldn't imagine having a guitar like that in my music room, and my hand making me not be able to go in there every night and wring some magic out of that thing! (well, as magic as I am capable of, which ain't much. )

I'm just going to warn you again though. Every time you post something about this guitar, people start offering to come over and help you move amps, water the plants, weed your garden, etc. I even bet people are Googling you so they can find out where you live and just "show up" without invitation! So be prepared for those remarks. Not from me of course. Although, I am working out tonight so if you have any big speaker cabs or heavy amps that these other wimps here can't move, I'm your man. HAHAHAHA

 

[László]

)I couldn't imagine having a guitar like that in my music room, and my hand making me not be able to go in there every night and wring some magic out of that thing!

You know, I'm making the best of it. There are days I can play, as long as I avoid certain chord shapes, but there are days when just moving the fingers on the fretboard makes the hand cramp up, or the fingers turn to uncoordinated jell-o.

I played the acoustic this morning for a few minutes, and it was a hand-cramp day. So I gave up after about ten minutes and went out for a walk. Exercise is always a good thing!

 

[justmund]

Is it a slight on the "Paul's Guitar" pickups that for some reason PRS ended up putting a .022uF cap in the signal path apparently as a high-pass filter?

I remember watching a vid where PRSh alludes to why this component is there. It was on a vid for the Brent Mason Sig, and he says that there's this part we put in the 408/Paul's/Sig Ltd that makes it sound a little bit sweeter, and Brent didn't want that component. I believe it's the one you're talking about, and they use a Sozo Mustard Cap yeah?

I've ordered one of those caps and I'm thinking of putting in my DC3 with 408s and seeing (hearing) what it does.

 

[greiswig]

I remember watching a vid where PRSh alludes to why this component is there. It was on a vid for the Brent Mason Sig, and he says that there's this part we put in the 408/Paul's/Sig Ltd that makes it sound a little bit sweeter, and Brent didn't want that component. I believe it's the one you're talking about, and they use a Sozo Mustard Cap yeah?

I've ordered one of those caps and I'm thinking of putting in my DC3 with 408s and seeing (hearing) what it does.

Sorry, justmund...I tune in infrequently here. Yup, that's the one I am talking about. But I wouldn't be dead set on a Sozo. Any decent cap with good tolerances and that value should get you there. I've seen some blind studies showing that people with great ears have a hard time telling differences between tone cap types in a guitar, and my guess is that is true in the case of a series highpass cap as well.

 

[greiswig]

Didn't mean to come off as defensive! Sorry if I gave that impression.

I just didn't want folks reading this thread to come away with the idea that the guitar is dull-sounding or somehow deficient in its tone - for most mortals.
(SNIP)

Incidentally, what other gear are you using the guitar with? I'm always curious to know what other folks are doing.

No worries, Les. 'Twas I who hijacked your thread! ;-) And I likely over interpreted the tone. But just like with me liking a Tele and you never caring for them, we are all going to have different tastes when it comes to tone. That's a good thing! If we didn't, music overall would be much less interesting. I was listening to Toto's "Rosanna" with tracks isolated, and it just amazes me still how nasty and raspy Lukather's tone is, but how it sits perfectly in the mix. Too much bass is a guitar player's worst enemy.

I use three pieces of equipment: an AxeFX is my go-to unit for most of my live gigs these days. I also have a little Glaswerks Zingaro combo (Dumble clone with Skyliner tone stack) and a Dumble ODS clone I made myself that has some strange twists to it and uses what's known as the Classic tone stack. That goes through a Forte 3D vertical cabinet with a Celestion G12-65 and an old coffeecan Electrovoice SRO. And it sounds pretty amazing if I do say so myself, especially with a PAF bridge.

 

[justmund]

The one thing I feel this PS model is lacking is the SPLAP switches for the 408s. A blend knob to mix the neck and bridge pickups would put it over the top. And a maple neck! Okay, I'll shut up now.

Nice use of "SPLAP"

I'm a switch guy and yeah, that's about the only thing that's not me about these guitars. I'm wondering if the PS team went "you know what, let's show off what these pickups can really do (because the 408s ARE fantastic pickups, they use 57/08 wire...), and not "ruin" the aesthetic with some mini-toggles"

 

[justmund]

Sorry, justmund...I tune in infrequently here. Yup, that's the one I am talking about. But I wouldn't be dead set on a Sozo. Any decent cap with good tolerances and that value should get you there. I've seen some blind studies showing that people with great ears have a hard time telling differences between tone cap types in a guitar, and my guess is that is true in the case of a series highpass cap as well.

It took you less that 7 hours to reply! I was sleeping for more of those hours so yeah, don't apologise

I've got it now so I might as well use it, I've got a bunch of other projects I want to knock out first before I start messing with my No. 1, but I'll do some before and after clips. Shouldn't be too hard to switch it in and out too by shorting it via a loose mini-toggle or something.

 

[garrett]

Nice use of "SPLAP"

I'm a switch guy and yeah, that's about the only thing that's not me about these guitars. I'm wondering if the PS team went "you know what, let's show off what these pickups can really do (because the 408s ARE fantastic pickups, they use 57/08 wire...), and not "ruin" the aesthetic with some mini-toggles"

I'd guess the three pickup, five-way setup is enough complication for most people. I would at least want a push/pull on the tone so I could get bridge/neck together. I think that's an essential tool for a "Swiss Army Knife" guitar. I'm very surprised the Mason sig skips it.

 

[justmund]

I'd guess the three pickup, five-way setup is enough complication for most people. I would at least want a push/pull on the tone so I could get bridge/neck together. I think that's an essential tool for a "Swiss Army Knife" guitar. I'm very surprised the Mason sig skips it.

I rarely use the middle pickup by itself but after hearing Les' and Mayer's (Super Eagle) comments I may start experimenting a bit more. I can't even get that pickup by itself on my DC3, it's wired with a 3-way toggle and push-pull to activate the middle pickup.

 

[László]

Too much bass is a guitar player's worst enemy.

We very much agree on this.

Most guitarists don't really understand why this is true, but at the very least, you have to leave room in a mix or a live performance for the bass and the kick drum.

Today I plugged the 20th into my amps with the neck pickup all the way up and the tone all the way up, and I gotta say, it was very bright. I usually roll the tone off a bit to darken it a little.

So definitely, different tones for different players! But our different amps may account for some of this, see below.

I also have a little Glaswerks Zingaro combo (Dumble clone with Skyliner tone stack) and a Dumble ODS clone I made myself that has some strange twists to it and uses what's known as the Classic tone stack.

I played through 50 Watt Two-Rock amps when their amps were more like Dumbles (Custom Reverb Signatures 1, 2, Onyx, and Onyx Signature Proto and Sig 1) for a long time, so I understand where your taste is in terms of amp tones. The cabs I used them with were Two-Rock 2x12 with the oval port and G-12 65s, Bogner Oversized 2x12 with V-30s, Mesa 2x12 Recto cab with V-30s, and Mesa 3/4 closed back 1x12 with their Celestion Black Shadow 90.

Right now I'm playing the guitars I have mainly through two PRS amps - a David Grissom DG30 model, and an HXDA 30. These amps are a little warmer sounding than the Two-Rock amps, and of course, they're not trying to be like Dumbles. They're single channel amps. The HXDA is a Marshall Plexi style amp, and I roll off a lot of the treble because I usually have a bit of gain on and I like to keep it warmer. The DG30 is sort of a combination of Tweed, AC30, and other vintage amps kind of rolled into one package that sounds fantastic, and I run it on "clean to edge of grit" fairly bright, with its bright switch on.

I also have a Mesa Lone Star 212 100 watt combo that I use for certain things; it's more of a Blackface kind of sound clean, with an overdrive channel that's probably unlike their other overdrive amps, it's really a clone of the clean channel with a bit more gain, with an optional additional overdrive circuit that can be switched in or out. I usually switch it in. With this amp, I run the clean side fairly bright.

Since our amps are very different, that may account partly for our different opinions regarding the need for a brighter neck pickup tone. I mostly use the neck pickup with my cleaner amps. And as I said, I tend to run them a bit more on the bright side.