I have a friend who has a bunch of guitars...

[Deleted member 5962]

I'll look forward to it and we'll both get it set up right after new years. And listen, I would never laugh at another guitar player who is trying to learn. That's not how I roll.

 

[Rusty Chops]

Guitar playing/learning becomes a life long pursuit, no matter where/when you jump in.

You only need enough technique to say what you want to say.

Sometimes all I want to do is rake a big ol’ first position E chord, let it ring, and go, “ahhh.”
I don’t usually stop there, but sometimes that’s where I just end up.

 

[Casi1]

That just means that you "got there". Part of believing is that you have accomplished enough to put you on the path to belief to begin with. For many years I have taught things (other than music but may still require some "creativity") and I can tell you that you cannot just "feel" your way through something without enough going for you technically to allow you to actually feel it. Sooooo many have fallen by the wayside because the people who were teaching them forgot what it was like to "not know how" and assuming that the student could understand or "feel" it on the same level that they could. That is why senior students in a dojo also teach. It is not that they know as much as the actual sensei.....but that they can sometimes relate better to the student that doesn't quite understand. That is because they are still close enough to that lack of understanding to really get the struggling student....so, the way that the first degree black belt would explain it to them is just "different" than the way the fifth degree black belt sensei would explain it after another 15 years of experience.

Now, obviously everyone learns at different paces and responds better to different stimuli, but that ability to take what you already understand and simply "allow" it to take you to the next level of learning requires that you actually know it to move on. That may not mean that you can write a theorhetical book on it. And explain why. . but you have internalized it enough to build upon it. I find that those who think you can just "feel" it, have already internalized it.....and those who have NOT internalized it simply cannot "feel it", no matter how much the teacher uses that as a launching point. I find this to be true no matter what the field is.

I get what you are saying. It’s sometimes difficult for the expert to explain step 1 in a way that a beginner can understand it. I think the abstract nature of something like this adds to that because what made the lightbulb flash for person 1 might not work for person 2. I am not in a beautifully abstract field or one that requires creativity (in any way) so ‘feeling it’ is difficult for me to grasp. I like formulas, yes/no, right/wrong, black/white when trying to learn something new. That’s why I got myself into engineering and math. There’s about as much ‘feeling it’ in those fields as there is crying in baseball.

I just got the fretboard theory book by Desi S. (who apparently has lots of PRSi). I was reading it last night and was surprised that I already know most of the first few chapters...

In response to the advice in this thread, I’m taking ‘feeling it’ as ‘1. being motivated and then 2. learning how to internalize what is heard so that the fingers can play it’. Cool but my next question would be, how exactly does one start learning how to hear a riff? For me, I think the answer is scales. Back when I was trying to learn them, I remember thinking ‘wow, all the combination of notes in the pattern sound good together’ so at least that tells me that I can hear what notes go together and what notes don’t go together. So if I play scales enough then I will learn what the notes sound like... once I do that then I can recognize them better when I hear them... once I can do that, then I can make the connection between my ear and my fingers. Right now, because I only know one or two patterns, when I hear something, I don’t even know where to start unless there’s a tab that I can follow. Once I see the tab, I typically immediately say ‘oh, I remember seeing that shape before!’ but I couldn’t pick it out just by hearing it because I didn’t recognize the sound of the pattern. Because of this, I think scales will help me. After I get the scales under my belt then I will be better prepared for one on one lessons again.

 

[Cocorosa]

You have to do all that sh!t, Casi.

I mean, you gotta do ‘em all, and you have to want to do it all. I’ll even add that you should join or start a band to your list.

This. Join or start a band. I found playing alongside a much better guitar player on songs we were writing pushed me to learn stuff because there was a reason and pushed me to learn a lot faster, because I didn't want to look totally stupid in front of someone else. And then you get the satisfaction of something really tangible in the form of a song or a sweet moment when everything locks together.

And I would add that I am still not very good but my perspective on what is good enough has changed and I am less likely to beat myself up for being totally rubbish and that may be the most important thing.

 

[Boogie]

I found playing alongside a much better guitar player on songs we were writing pushed me to learn stuff because there was a reason and pushed me to learn a lot faster, because I didn't want to look totally stupid in front of someone else.

This! Peer pressure can be a grand motivator. But, honestly, every musician has something to teach you, so why not listen?

For me, music has been an interesting journey that’s taken two different paths. Starting at age 11 on the saxophone, I learned clinically...music theory, staff music, scales, etc. After 3 years of immersion, I came into first contact with an electric guitar in a jazz ensemble. It was a Fender Jaguar (because the kid was tiny!) and is was so cool with all of those switches and doodads on it! He was good at sight reading like the rest of us but he was interpreting chords and rhythm progressions that the rest of us ignored. Something really clicked for me...an application of music that was dynamic, not linear...not as boring. At first, I went to my private sax teacher and asked him to teach me improv because I hated my tone and wanted to learn ‘creativity’. He couldn’t do it. Instead of looking for another teacher (I was a kid and didn’t know any better), I decided to go to the local music store and take guitar lessons. After a few weeks of learning the basics on a crappy nylon acoustic atrocity, from a long-haired hippy rock star (he was amazing!), I asked him how to move on to something ‘cool’. He said, “buy a Les Paul! Oh, and throw away that paper music and use your ear”. So that’s what I did.

A gazillion years later, 2 years ago from today, I get a call from a bassist from a previous band. He’s wanting to start a prog rock trio type thing and thought of me. What?

At the first practice, he and the drummer kicked into a song that scared the holy f@ck out of me! These guys weren’t just good, they were fantastic! Tight doesn’t even scratch the surface, they were amazing. I was intimidated as all hell! Their open and accepting attitude allowed me to find my space and stretch way out of my comfort zone and do things I didn’t think I could do. While I know they didn’t pull me up to their level, they did pull me up. I’ll forever be thankful for that growth opportunity. If I had stuck to the clinical approach requiring formal charts, none of this would have ever happened.

Moral of the story: learn the mechanical basics, but train your ear, too. Be able to find a particular note everywhere on the fretboard, but listen while you do it so you understand why and when to use them. Music needs your analytic ability, but it mostly needs your cranial chaos (right brain...lefties get this particularly well) to do the fun stuff. Do your homework, but then just turn on the radio and play to every song that comes on. You have until the end of the song to figure it out and there’s no pause or back up. Fun and frustrating. Emphasize the fun.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

The way in which you describe your thought processes are analytical. You take a formula (scale or chord sequence) and hear the patterns and the way in which the notes relate to one another. Would that be fair to say?

If yes, then when you learn a new song you will recognise similarities in chord patterns between that and another song you may know. As you practice/learn, you will start to realise that there are more similarities between lots of songs, than most of us hear, due to musical arranging and or orchestration.

Sergio and Cocrosa are both so right, you’ve got to want to learn and playing with those that are more advanced makes you want to get better. Also, if you find great people to play along side, they will help you and increase your confidence.

Blues is, I think as the folk on hear are trying to say, about hearing in your head what you want to play, before you do. Practicing chords and scales is a great way to familiarise your hands with this process.

As Carlos Santana says, make the instrument an extension of yourself, through which you make self expression.

Good luck with your “light bulb” moments!

 

[pac90]

Ok, read them all. So I have more to say.

I find it interesting that so many recommend "learning the scales." I never learned scales. I don't want this to sound wrong, but in my early 20s I was playing things as complex as Van Halen solos, Marino, Di Meola, all the 80s shredders, and Trower and Hendrix, Rush, Zeppelin etc. and didn't "know" one scale. I could play any of them by ear, and learn them quickly. But didn't know what scale or key or many times the name of the chords I was playing.

But, I was a classical pianist growing up. I was way more advanced in playing than in theory, because my teacher didn't start teaching a lot of theory until the student reach high school. I was playing Bach and Chopin etc when I was in Jr. High. So I had the ear thing down, and the book knowledge once I started playing guitar, meant nothing to me, because I could play stuff so who gives a crap about the science behind it, right? That said, take what I say with that grain of salt. If your ear is not developed enough, it may be mandatory to learn scales and at least some theory............

but you are strange though........I mean in a good way, a lucky way

most people have a different incline to climb, you describe a great natural talent, but also most everybody whom responded who did some other instrument when young had the neural networks wired in at a good time, which became a good facility when continuing on with guitar. I am a old plodder who likes f*cking about too much, but can see my kids have a good grounding from periods of instruction at a young age

That desni serna site (guitar music theory) is really good, and he plays PRS too to boot

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Great posts. Thought of another tip for blues players. Practice bends with a tuner on. Train your ear to hear exactly where that bend needs to get too. Then, vibrato from that bend, again while watching the tuner, so your vibrato comes to pitch. Then and only after you’ve mastered this, you can do what I called “tortured bends” where you create tension by how quickly you get to the note or how long you stay there.

 

[ScottR]

I'll look forward to it and we'll both get it set up right after new years. And listen, I would never laugh at another guitar player who is trying to learn. That's not how I roll.

Naa, it wouldn't bother me a bit...I mean where is the fun if ya can't break a friends ba!!$?! As long as it's contructive and it helps progress...you can laugh all you want. It's healthy
In the 19 monrhs I've been practicing the only petson that played in front of is Princess Cheesey Poofs & my dogs and the other day as I was playing outside on my patio, my raging alcoholic neighbor heard me and started heckling me and requesting Freebird...yeah that actually happened. Told him I never heard of it.

 

[ScottR]

Great posts. Thought of another tip for blues players. Practice bends with a tuner on. Train your ear to hear exactly where that bend needs to get too. Then, vibrato from that bend, again while watching the tuner, so your vibrato comes to pitch. Then and only after you’ve mastered this, you can do what I called “tortured bends” where you create tension by how quickly you get to the note or how long you stay there.

BOOM! The tuner is my best friend and his little buddy metronome is pretty cool...friggin annoying little bastid...but he keeps me in line.

No kiddding, I use a tuner as I practice like as a way to validate what my ears hear...that has been a constant since day one, and it has helped tremendously! Not only are you "strange" but your also pretty smart. No, dude not pretty...pretty smart... lets not lose our minds over here..

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Naa, it wouldn't bother me a bit...I mean where is the fun if ya can't break a friends ba!!$?! As long as it's contructive and it helps progress...you can laugh all you want. It's healthy
In the 19 monrhs I've been practicing the only petson that played in front of is Princess Cheesey Poofs & my dogs and the other day as I was playing outside on my patio, my raging alcoholic neighbor heard me and started heckling me and requesting Freebird...yeah that actually happened. Told him I never heard of it.

Next thing you’ll tell me is that you dinnae ken who Neil Young is!

 

[alantig]

Way late to this party. Not sure I have much to add to what the others have said. I do use TrueFire a good bit - if you’re patient, they run tons of specials, especially around the holidays (pretty much all of the holidays). Lots of $5 download courses at those times, and big discounts on the ‘name’ player courses (Vai, Grissom, Hiland, etc.). Music Dispatch is running a clearance sale right now - they have a few instructional things at really good prices.

I’m a believer in pretty much all of what has been said before. Face to face time can be a magnificent way to learn with the right teacher. I once did a guitar camp thing and went to a one-hour class with a blue player. Got more out of that hour than I had in months trying to decipher some of the stuff myself.

YouTube is a wonderful resource - it’s one of those ‘man, I wish I’d had this growing up’ things at times. The instructional stuff is great, but so is the jam track stuff and things like the isolated tracks that make it up there.

I don’t know much theory, but that’s a failing on my part. I wish I’d learned it when I was younger and it would stick better. I can make baby steps with it, but I can’t always apply it. I can watch someone say, “I’ll play this solo in Lydian mode” and I can figure out what they’re doing, but I can’t always apply it to my playing. It just sounds wrong when I do it. But more knowledge is never a bad thing, so if you can learn it, do.

The hardest thing, IMHO, is learning to be you on an instrument. I’m not really interested in the next Trower/EVH/Petrucci - we have those guys. I’m interested in the next Casi/Scott/whoever that I haven’t heard yet.

Disclaimer: Don’t take my playing as evidence that the advice above is totally without merit.

 

[ScottR]

Next thing you’ll tell me is that you dinnae ken who Neil Young is!

Naaa, I know that dude....he was my roommate in college...he's an x-ray trchnician....true story...

 

[veinbuster]

Well...I took a first try at some Bach violin Sonatas on my Angelus this morning. It was humiliating.
Just try some hard stuff from time to time. Then play the crap out of something you know.

 

[Guitpicky]

There's a good chance this won't matter to anyone but it's a different take on things so I'll toss it out there.

On the surface I'm a total wannabe. I have about $15k in guitars and equipment now and can't even play "Mary had a Little Lamb". If I were "normal" I would have to hang my head in shame and guilt, but I'm about as far from normal as it gets. I'm a savant and it comes with autism free of charge. My fine motor skills suck, my mind hates structure, and forcing me thru anything is a battle that nobody wants to wage, especially me.

It's a certifiable train wreck, but I'm having fun because it's pure experimentation with no preconceived expectations to poop on my party. I'm pushing 60 and the only reason I even have a guitar is to compliment my work in another area. I needed to learn how music works, not so much theory and notation but what music actually is, where it comes from, and how it forms the basis or backdrop of all conscious reality.

I figured having a guitar would make it a little less like memorizing a dictionary and more fun. My real joy tho, comes from all the little discoveries I'm making about who and what we really are and how EVERYTHING works. I haven't become a guitar prodigy or even a real player but that was never the point.

Learning anything is work, the deeper and more complex the subject the more difficult that work is. I'm having fun learning, it's just not how to actually play guitar because that was always secondary. Not only am I not under pressure to learn to play guitar as fast as humanly possible, it has also made a much more difficult task kind of fun.

It's all a win win for me. It turns out I really enjoy just being a curator of fine instruments and I'm lucky enough to have four guitars that just about anyone would be thrilled with. I CAN play them whenever I want but I'm never forced to and I'm not restricted to any particular musical rules.

The other thing is I tend to bury myself in my work, so a public forum that I can poke my nose into now and then is just another way to break my funk. I'm never going to be welcomed into any group with open arms because I'm just too different, but nobody here has threatened to kill me yet so there's that.

If there is one thing autism has taught me, it's never gauge your progress by where others are at. Your progress can only be fairly measured by comparing where you are now to where you've been and where you'd like to be.

My point is to go with your own flow. It's a lot easier and way more fun to LET things happen than it is to try and MAKE things happen

 

[danktat]

I get what you are saying. It’s sometimes difficult for the expert to explain step 1 in a way that a beginner can understand it. I think the abstract nature of something like this adds to that because what made the lightbulb flash for person 1 might not work for person 2. I am not in a beautifully abstract field or one that requires creativity (in any way) so ‘feeling it’ is difficult for me to grasp. I like formulas, yes/no, right/wrong, black/white when trying to learn something new. That’s why I got myself into engineering and math. There’s about as much ‘feeling it’ in those fields as there is crying in baseball.

I just got the fretboard theory book by Desi S. (who apparently has lots of PRSi). I was reading it last night and was surprised that I already know most of the first few chapters...

In response to the advice in this thread, I’m taking ‘feeling it’ as ‘1. being motivated and then 2. learning how to internalize what is heard so that the fingers can play it’. Cool but my next question would be, how exactly does one start learning how to hear a riff? For me, I think the answer is scales. Back when I was trying to learn them, I remember thinking ‘wow, all the combination of notes in the pattern sound good together’ so at least that tells me that I can hear what notes go together and what notes don’t go together. So if I play scales enough then I will learn what the notes sound like... once I do that then I can recognize them better when I hear them... once I can do that, then I can make the connection between my ear and my fingers. Right now, because I only know one or two patterns, when I hear something, I don’t even know where to start unless there’s a tab that I can follow. Once I see the tab, I typically immediately say ‘oh, I remember seeing that shape before!’ but I couldn’t pick it out just by hearing it because I didn’t recognize the sound of the pattern. Because of this, I think scales will help me. After I get the scales under my belt then I will be better prepared for one on one lessons again.

Most people start with the first position blues box and can d@mned near create a full solo with that alone. The key of "A" is usually the starting point for it since it is pretty easy to reach all the notes without stretching to hard....and they are not really crowded like they would be further up the neck (that is starting on the fifth fret on the low "E" string from that first note). The black dots here are the root notes (in this case "A" but if you move it up or down the neck the shape a locations still work but for different keys). If you get in a bind, you can always go back to those black dot notes to resolve the sound if you get lost.....then play around again until you feel the need to resolve it again. The blue dots are what are considered the "blue note" (which is what makes it a minor "blues" scale as opposed to a minor pentatonic scale). Use them to add flavor so it sounds more like "blues" and less like "rock".

Once that first position is seared in your memory, as long as you know the key, you can revert back to it if you need to or you get lost trying to move around the neck and it will still sound like blues.

If you didn't get all of the "boxes" memorized but would like to expand your range a bit. . . you can take that position one box, and go up two frets (10th fret in the key of A) on the B and high E strings to add a couple of more notes on the high side........and then you can go to the low E and A stings and move two frets down (3rd fret in the key of A). This will keep you from "feeling" like you are stuck in that one position even if you are. Memorizing the shape of all five boxes can seem daunting in the beginning, so most start off with just that first position. Just that alone will sound good. Jump on youtube and look for some blues backing tracks. Be sure that is says the key it is in. Then go to that low E string to the note of the key and that will be where yous start your box. Then mess around with that box and experinment with what sounds good. When to resolve it on the root note. When to drop in a blue note. Etc...etc...etc.......Then, when you want it to scream....just slide that box up 12 frets for an octave higher set of notes...then back down to the first position..........and VIOLA!! Instant blues.....lol

Without formal instruction and it just being based on "shapes" instead of actual "notes", you will still be able to get a good start, sound like blues, and have some fun soloing with that.....Hope that helps a little bit to give you something to chew on.

 

[Rusty Chops]

This. Join or start a band. I found playing alongside a much better guitar player on songs we were writing pushed me to learn stuff because there was a reason and pushed me to learn a lot faster, because I didn't want to look totally stupid in front of someone else...

I agree. Playing with others is adrenalizing, especially when there’s an upcoming gig.
The US Marines figured out a long time ago that people learn faster when they’re adrenalized! That’s why the Di’s are always yelling and keeping you off balance. Adrenaline is your friend when it comes to learning quickly.

 

[Casi1]

Most people start with the first position blues box and can d@mned near create a full solo with that alone. The key of "A" is usually the starting point for it since it is pretty easy to reach all the notes without stretching to hard....and they are not really crowded like they would be further up the neck (that is starting on the fifth fret on the low "E" string from that first note). The black dots here are the root notes (in this case "A" but if you move it up or down the neck the shape a locations still work but for different keys). If you get in a bind, you can always go back to those black dot notes to resolve the sound if you get lost.....then play around again until you feel the need to resolve it again. The blue dots are what are considered the "blue note" (which is what makes it a minor "blues" scale as opposed to a minor pentatonic scale). Use them to add flavor so it sounds more like "blues" and less like "rock".

Once that first position is seared in your memory, as long as you know the key, you can revert back to it if you need to or you get lost trying to move around the neck and it will still sound like blues.

If you didn't get all of the "boxes" memorized but would like to expand your range a bit. . . you can take that position one box, and go up two frets (10th fret in the key of A) on the B and high E strings to add a couple of more notes on the high side........and then you can go to the low E and A stings and move two frets down (3rd fret in the key of A). This will keep you from "feeling" like you are stuck in that one position even if you are. Memorizing the shape of all five boxes can seem daunting in the beginning, so most start off with just that first position. Just that alone will sound good. Jump on youtube and look for some blues backing tracks. Be sure that is says the key it is in. Then go to that low E string to the note of the key and that will be where yous start your box. Then mess around with that box and experinment with what sounds good. When to resolve it on the root note. When to drop in a blue note. Etc...etc...etc.......Then, when you want it to scream....just slide that box up 12 frets for an octave higher set of notes...then back down to the first position..........and VIOLA!! Instant blues.....lol

Without formal instruction and it just being based on "shapes" instead of actual "notes", you will still be able to get a good start, sound like blues, and have some fun soloing with that.....Hope that helps a little bit to give you something to chew on.

Thanks! I learned a couple positions of minor pent when I started in 2016. I didn’t learn the blues scale so those blue dots are new to me. I’m gonna check it out!

 

[László]

A really good teacher, one on one, makes a big difference, because he or she can respond to your strengths, weaknesses, learning style, talents, and make suggestions as to what to do next.

As nice as the internet, books and videos can be, nothing else does what a good teacher can do, especially when it comes to subtleties that can make all the difference, like helping you with your touch, fingering, etc.

Of course, all this depends on the teacher’s ability to truly teach. Merely being a good player isn’t the most important qualification.

Just my two cents. The most progress I ever made on piano was having an amazing teacher who helped me learn how to use touch and get real tone from the keys, not just read and play the notes. It took some serious homework to find a teacher that good, by the way. They don’t turn up at the local music store (usually).

 

[alantig]

Most people start with the first position blues box and can d@mned near create a full solo with that alone. The key of "A" is usually the starting point for it since it is pretty easy to reach all the notes without stretching to hard....and they are not really crowded like they would be further up the neck (that is starting on the fifth fret on the low "E" string from that first note). The black dots here are the root notes (in this case "A" but if you move it up or down the neck the shape a locations still work but for different keys). If you get in a bind, you can always go back to those black dot notes to resolve the sound if you get lost.....then play around again until you feel the need to resolve it again. The blue dots are what are considered the "blue note" (which is what makes it a minor "blues" scale as opposed to a minor pentatonic scale). Use them to add flavor so it sounds more like "blues" and less like "rock".

Once that first position is seared in your memory, as long as you know the key, you can revert back to it if you need to or you get lost trying to move around the neck and it will still sound like blues.

If you didn't get all of the "boxes" memorized but would like to expand your range a bit. . . you can take that position one box, and go up two frets (10th fret in the key of A) on the B and high E strings to add a couple of more notes on the high side........and then you can go to the low E and A stings and move two frets down (3rd fret in the key of A). This will keep you from "feeling" like you are stuck in that one position even if you are. Memorizing the shape of all five boxes can seem daunting in the beginning, so most start off with just that first position. Just that alone will sound good. Jump on youtube and look for some blues backing tracks. Be sure that is says the key it is in. Then go to that low E string to the note of the key and that will be where yous start your box. Then mess around with that box and experinment with what sounds good. When to resolve it on the root note. When to drop in a blue note. Etc...etc...etc.......Then, when you want it to scream....just slide that box up 12 frets for an octave higher set of notes...then back down to the first position..........and VIOLA!! Instant blues.....lol

Without formal instruction and it just being based on "shapes" instead of actual "notes", you will still be able to get a good start, sound like blues, and have some fun soloing with that.....Hope that helps a little bit to give you something to chew on.

One exercise my last teacher gave me that really helped me get the pentatonic scales down was to link them up the neck. So you’d play position 1 through 5 up the neck in opposite directions. So, in the key of G, you’d play position 1 from the sixth string to the first string starting on the third fret, then move up to position 2 starting on the 8th fret going from the first string to the sixth, and so on. When you get up to the first box an octave higher, the pattern reverses and you play the boxes down the neck going through the strings in the opposite direction as you did the first time. It was designed as a hammer-on/pull-off exercise (picking one note per string), but learning the boxes was a side effect.