I do NOT need a new head - now help me choose one

[DougUSMC]

Ugh, so many great points that it's not helping me at all! There have been many things that were new brain fodder, but also a bunch that I'm already going back and forth over.

To try to clarify a couple of great questions that came up:
- I already have a head/cab setup that I love. I can add to that in the future, but my focus for this purchase is for something I can grab and go with easier.
- Being able to move on the Archon is a great point
- The reason I'm leaning towards the 20 vs 50 is because I'll never gig with it, so I don't "need" the 50. By admitting that I save my back 15 lbs every time I lug it outside. Plus, let's be honest: If I decide I should've gotten the 50, I'll just get another.
- I'm still squarely stuck between the Archon and Custom, which is pretty much where my head was when I started the post. I didn't say that b/c I didn't want to taint the waters, but that's it

So, I really appreciate all the help, it's given me more to think about and made me feel better about some thoughts I had. Can we please focus the debate now on ONLY Archon vs. Custom? I've called the guys I usually buy from local, and they have one or the other, so a bake-off isn't happening.

 

[bodia]

Ok, Custom 50 vs. Archon 25. I had both, and both sounded great. The only real issue that I had with the Custom 50 was it had to be loud to sound its best. The Archon was great at any volume. It just did better at lower volumes than the Custom did, for me. YMMV, of course.

 

[DougUSMC]

Ok, Custom 50 vs. Archon 25. I had both, and both sounded great. The only real issue that I had with the Custom 50 was it had to be loud to sound its best. The Archon was great at any volume. It just did better at lower volumes than the Custom did, for me. YMMV, of course.

That's actually my main concern w/ 20/25w vs 50: it's likely that I'll play indoors 1/2 of the time, and I don't want to "have" to crank it up to hit the sweet spot.

I wonder then, comparing the Archon 25 to the Custom 20: does the Archon still outperform at lower volumes? Mainly asking b/c I'm leaning towards the Custom 20, but I can't say why yet...

 

[bodia]

That's actually my main concern w/ 20/25w vs 50: it's likely that I'll play indoors 1/2 of the time, and I don't want to "have" to crank it up to hit the sweet spot.

I wonder then, comparing the Archon 25 to the Custom 20: does the Archon still outperform at lower volumes? Mainly asking b/c I'm leaning towards the Custom 20, but I can't say why yet...

That I can't help you with. I have not had the chance to play through, or hear, the Custom 20.

 

[dmatthews]

I'd say "in general" (and I have no Archon experience), that the Custom would be more made with a nod to classic rock, and the Archon for heavier.
As I type that, I know they'll cross over... and... um...
Nevermind

 

[DougUSMC]

I'd say "in general" (and I have no Archon experience), that the Custom would be more made with a nod to classic rock, and the Archon for heavier.
As I type that, I know they'll cross over... and... um...
Nevermind

Lol, sounds like I can't make a bad decision b/w the two.

Last thing edging back to the Archon's favor would be that w/an Archon 50 I'd have the 50/25 switch too...

UGH! I can't make these decisions!!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Ok, Custom 50 vs. Archon 25. I had both, and both sounded great. The only real issue that I had with the Custom 50 was it had to be loud to sound its best. The Archon was great at any volume. It just did better at lower volumes than the Custom did, for me. YMMV, of course.

I had a Custom 50 and Archon 50 and agree completely with this. The Custom sounded GREAT at volume levels I could rarely turn it up too. Very good at loud home volumes. The Archon sounds great at much lower volumes and when turned up.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Lol, sounds like I can't make a bad decision b/w the two.

Last thing edging back to the Archon's favor would be that w/an Archon 50 I'd have the 50/25 switch too...

UGH! I can't make these decisions!!

Ok, now you've gone and done it! Now I have to give my speech again... (J/K)

The half power switch is NOT some magic "TV volume" switch. It changes the power stage from Pentode to Triode and thus changes the tone and feel of the amp more than it changes the volume. Oh, it's definitely a bonus, but not for reducing volume. The volume reduction is minimal. It's still 25 watts of big glass big iron power. But Triode is fatter/smoother with less top and bottom end. Thing more bluesy and less hard rock.

 

[DougUSMC]

Ok, now you've gone and done it! Now I have to give my speech again... (J/K)

The half power switch is NOT some magic "TV volume" switch. It changes the power stage from Pentode to Triode and thus changes the tone and feel of the amp more than it changes the volume. Oh, it's definitely a bonus, but not for reducing volume. The volume reduction is minimal. It's still 25 watts of big glass big iron power. But Triode is fatter/smoother with less top and bottom end. Thing more bluesy and less hard rock.

No, please don't hold back, this is news to me. I have Marshall and Orange heads with 1/2 volume switches, and I've always considered power reducers. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[Deleted member 5962]

No, please don't hold back, this is news to me. I have Marshall and Orange heads with 1/2 volume switches, and I've always considered power reducers. Am I doing it wrong?

No, not doing it wrong. They DO reduce power, but depending on the amp, they are either power attenuators OR power stage changes. Think of it this way. If it's just built in attenuation, it's like putting a Hot Plate after your amp. But if it's a switch that changes the power stage, it changes the tone and feel of the amp considerably and that is actually MORE a factor than the reduced volume. My Mesa TA 15 was SO cool, because it had a 3 way power switch. You have 5 watt SE class A, 15 watt SE class A, or 25 watt simulclass (Class A/B). Yes, 5 watts was quieter at the same volume settings than 25 or 15, but each setting sounded and felt VERY different. Like 3 different amps! Putting a Hot Plate after the amp doesn't do that, it just makes it not as loud.

So on the amps you're looking at, the Archon has a half power switch, which switches the power stage from Pentode 50 watts to Triode 25 watts, or, on the combo 25, from Pentode 25 to Triode 13. One small nudge of the master will make the lower powered setting just as loud as the higher one. But you'll notice softer, smoother, less punchy tone with less low bass and high treble on the lower wattage settings, and more bottom, top and punch on the higher settings.

The key is, with a good master, you don't just flip to 25 watts because you are not going to play loud. Even at low volumes, they sound different and if you're rocking, you may want the dynamics and more highs and lows of the higher wattage setting.

 

[DougUSMC]

No, not doing it wrong. They DO reduce power, but depending on the amp, they are either power attenuators OR power stage changes. Think of it this way. If it's just built in attenuation, it's like putting a Hot Plate after your amp. But if it's a switch that changes the power stage, it changes the tone and feel of the amp considerably and that is actually MORE a factor than the reduced volume. My Mesa TA 15 was SO cool, because it had a 3 way power switch. You have 5 watt SE class A, 15 watt SE class A, or 25 watt simulclass (Class A/B). Yes, 5 watts was quieter at the same volume settings than 25 or 15, but each setting sounded and felt VERY different. Like 3 different amps! Putting a Hot Plate after the amp doesn't do that, it just makes it not as loud.

So on the amps you're looking at, the Archon has a half power switch, which switches the power stage from Pentode 50 watts to Triode 25 watts, or, on the combo 25, from Pentode 25 to Triode 13. One small nudge of the master will make the lower powered setting just as loud as the higher one. But you'll notice softer, smoother, less punchy tone with less low bass and high treble on the lower wattage settings, and more bottom, top and punch on the higher settings.

The key is, with a good master, you don't just flip to 25 watts because you are not going to play loud. Even at low volumes, they sound different and if you're rocking, you may want the dynamics and more highs and lows of the higher wattage setting.

Awesome, thanks for the info.

The way I read that, it's a GOOD thing. Either amp will allow me to cut power & volume, and potentially (with enough practice) give me more voicing options from the same amp?

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Archon has this. Custom 20 and 50 don't. But yes, more voicing options.

 

[DougUSMC]

Archon has this. Custom 20 and 50 don't. But yes, more voicing options.

I think that's really my decision point:
Archon for the 25/50 option
Custom 20 for the purity and purpose

 

[Deleted member 5962]

TBH, I'd go more with the amp that tonally meets your musical style. If you're hard rock to metal, get the Archon. If your clean to blues to classic rock, get the Classic 20.

Both amps can do it all but are better at those tasks. The Archon clean channel stays clean until WAY loud. The Custom clean channel can be pushed into blues tones.

The Custom gain channel is smoother and fatter, and the Archon's more aggressive. But with a brighter boost pedal, you can make the Custom more agressive (Timmy was great for this!) and in Triode mode, bright switch off, presence down... many ways to tame the Archon.

Again, I'd base it on what you're going to play with the amp.

 

[elvis]

I think this is a little too broad. What are you trying to accomplish? Jazz? Pop? Blues? Metal? Rock? Funk?

What's your budget?


Personally, I feel like you can never go wrong with a Marshall

Apparently, Freidman (spelling?) is a budget-friendly Marshall or a hot rodded Marshall. IDK anything about them because I'm the type of guy where, if I want a Marshall sound, I'll just buy a Marshall amp.
I always laugh at YouTube gear reviews where people say "This is just like a Les Paul" or "this is just like a Vox AC30"

Just buy a damn AC30. Then, you'll know you're getting those overly-bright and spanky sounding British tones.

I digress but, I'm a big fan of just buying whatever it is you want to sound like.


Have you looked into Kemper? They're supposedly the Jesus of modeling amps

I generally look for amps that sound like other amps for a couple of reasons:
1. The amp I want to sound like has been out of production for a long time and I'm unlikely to find one in decent condition
2. The amp I want to sound like doesn't have the features I want
3. The amp I want to sound like isn't made as well as I'd like (not uncommon for Marshall)

All three of these apply to my Stiletto Ace. It has plexi and JCM800 tones, plus a clean channel, plus built like a tank.

 

[Tremontinator]

Ugh, so many great points that it's not helping me at all! There have been many things that were new brain fodder, but also a bunch that I'm already going back and forth over.

To try to clarify a couple of great questions that came up:
- I already have a head/cab setup that I love. I can add to that in the future, but my focus for this purchase is for something I can grab and go with easier.
- Being able to move on the Archon is a great point
- The reason I'm leaning towards the 20 vs 50 is because I'll never gig with it, so I don't "need" the 50. By admitting that I save my back 15 lbs every time I lug it outside. Plus, let's be honest: If I decide I should've gotten the 50, I'll just get another.
- I'm still squarely stuck between the Archon and Custom, which is pretty much where my head was when I started the post. I didn't say that b/c I didn't want to taint the waters, but that's it

So, I really appreciate all the help, it's given me more to think about and made me feel better about some thoughts I had. Can we please focus the debate now on ONLY Archon vs. Custom? I've called the guys I usually buy from local, and they have one or the other, so a bake-off isn't happening.

Can you rent both of them and take them home to A/B them?

Baring that, take your main guitar and your instrument cable to both stores, and record a few passages just on your cellphone, and A/B the recordings at home.

Don't record like 5 different riffs and 3 solos on one recording. Record riff 1, stop the recording, and then move on to the next. Just a few seconds each. That way, you can actually A/B them.

I've noticed YouTube guys will run the gamott of riffs and solos for a long time with various settings before switching gear. That doesn't do you any good whatsoever. You have to be able to A/B them riff for riff, man.

Can you just buy both and have both? If 2 heads are better than one, then I'm sure 2 combos are better than one.

No, not doing it wrong. They DO reduce power, but depending on the amp, they are either power attenuators OR power stage changes. Think of it this way. If it's just built in attenuation, it's like putting a Hot Plate after your amp. But if it's a switch that changes the power stage, it changes the tone and feel of the amp considerably and that is actually MORE a factor than the reduced volume. My Mesa TA 15 was SO cool, because it had a 3 way power switch. You have 5 watt SE class A, 15 watt SE class A, or 25 watt simulclass (Class A/B). Yes, 5 watts was quieter at the same volume settings than 25 or 15, but each setting sounded and felt VERY different. Like 3 different amps! Putting a Hot Plate after the amp doesn't do that, it just makes it not as loud.

So on the amps you're looking at, the Archon has a half power switch, which switches the power stage from Pentode 50 watts to Triode 25 watts, or, on the combo 25, from Pentode 25 to Triode 13. One small nudge of the master will make the lower powered setting just as loud as the higher one. But you'll notice softer, smoother, less punchy tone with less low bass and high treble on the lower wattage settings, and more bottom, top and punch on the higher settings.

The key is, with a good master, you don't just flip to 25 watts because you are not going to play loud. Even at low volumes, they sound different and if you're rocking, you may want the dynamics and more highs and lows of the higher wattage setting.

Does this great comment also apply to my MT15?
Rather than start a new thread, can I just do this in order to crank up the amp and then dial back actual volume?

This is why amps should always have a master volume. That way, you can dime the Pre-amp, and dial back the power amp and get killer tone at bedroom volumes

I generally look for amps that sound like other amps for a couple of reasons:
1. The amp I want to sound like has been out of production for a long time and I'm unlikely to find one in decent condition
2. The amp I want to sound like doesn't have the features I want
3. The amp I want to sound like isn't made as well as I'd like (not uncommon for Marshall)

All three of these apply to my Stiletto Ace. It has plexi and JCM800 tones, plus a clean channel, plus built like a tank.

Touché

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I generally look for amps that sound like other amps for a couple of reasons:
1. The amp I want to sound like has been out of production for a long time and I'm unlikely to find one in decent condition
2. The amp I want to sound like doesn't have the features I want
3. The amp I want to sound like isn't made as well as I'd like (not uncommon for Marshall)

All three of these apply to my Stiletto Ace. It has plexi and JCM800 tones, plus a clean channel, plus built like a tank.

I’ve always wanted to try one of those and was going too, til the Archon came along. Still would be interested if one came around

 

[elvis]

I’ve always wanted to try one of those and was going too, til the Archon came along. Still would be interested if one came around

When they first came out I didn't have the taste in tone I have now, or any ability to dial in tone. I thought they were a disaster. Recently I was curious, based on a bit of info I'd come across.

It really is a great sounding amp, with two great channels and three great lead modes.

Not thrilled that it's 80lbs. I literally hurt myself unpacking it from the shipping carton.

Very different from the Archon, but very useable for the same kinds of music. The two amps together cover a lot of territory. I like to run them in parallel.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

When they first came out I didn't have the taste in tone I have now, or any ability to dial in tone. I thought they were a disaster. Recently I was curious, based on a bit of info I'd come across.

It really is a great sounding amp, with two great channels and three great lead modes.

Not thrilled that it's 80lbs. I literally hurt myself unpacking it from the shipping carton.

Very different from the Archon, but very useable for the same kinds of music. The two amps together cover a lot of territory. I like to run them in parallel.

Yeah, I was only interested in an Ace, and head. Most Ace’s are combos.

 

[alantig]

How do you find your Fillmore Les?

Bottom of the steps, turn right, third amp on the right.