Hollowbody SE vs CORE

Had he not launched the SE line, I can not imagine PRS being in the position it is in at this time. It always amazes me when I am window shopping online, that a site will have 30 F or G guitars, and 100 PRS! SE gave him that penetration IMO!!!
Excellent point. As we can be dead sure SEs sell in greater quantities than the rest of the line, they can be seen as subsidizing the bespoke jewels that come out of Stevensville. And I'll bet that, with so many SE units over so many years - a massive user base aggressively play-testing the product - the flow of experiential information has gone back the other way as well. Nother words, just as the experience gained in 15 years of making the Cores informed and improved the SE breed, likewise 20 years of SE experience have surely provided lessons then applied in Stevensville, improving that breed.

As long as someone is paying attention (and I think it's obvious that Paul is, and that the company culture instills the practice of curious attention), all parts of the operation serve to support and improve the others.

As for the stocking quantity, let us not forget what a stroke of genius it was to consciously and aggressively deploy the variation in grain and figuring across every single guitar-sized piece of wood - in conjunction with creative dyeing - to differentiate not just model specs, but every individual guitar. You just stock more variety to provide more choices - because when a shopper starts deciding between two cosmetically different versions of the same model, he's already decided to buy.

Had that been PRS's only shtick, it wouldn't have supported the company for so long - but on top of the inherent design and build quality underneath, it's a kind of addictive icing on the cake that keeps even guys who already have a given model hungry.

I don't know if that was a conscious and calculated plan from the beginning, or whether it just grew out of Paul's pleasure in the cosmetics and was then adopted for its superlative marketing energy - but either way it's a kind of genius. It's Jimmie Webster at Gretsch, with the sparkle and bling and show - but with a better filter for what's a good idea (especially in hardware innovation) and what's just a wild one.

I also notice that when Paul explains a feature or announces a new spec or build detail, it's not a long dissertation with obsessive explanation of the technical nuts and bolts. The reason for its deployment is so simple: it's either "it just works," or "it sounds good." (Let's contrast that with "our market surveys have shown that...")

I've gotten similar answers when I ask an artist why they chose a particular color or shape, a brilliant musician how they decided on a particular element in an arrangement or composition, a graphic designer how they decided on a font or placement and size of page elements - or a guitar builder (or specifier) why they made a particularly inspired decision. I know all these people are versed in the tools and tricks of their trades, and that they understand at least a sufficient part of the theory and mechanics underlying their work.

But the answer is almost always some variation on a kind of blank look, as they realize I'm asking for a decision tree with its rationales and calculations, and wonder why I'd even think in those terms. I almost see all that play across their faces for the moment it takes them to mentally wave it all away and give the right answer: because it was right, because it works, because it's better that way.

Such a simple focus, and such profound consequences. And it looks so easy, sounds so offhand. We think there has to be a trick. Maybe, to those gifted enough to make those right decisions virtually every time, it is easy. Maybe the trick is just to be someone with the innate ability (informed by intuition and experience) who, when confronted with choices, just knows which is the right way to go - and who knows when even something seemingly small is not as good as it can be, and goes looking for improvement.

Them folks is rare!
 
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I'm a long time hollow and semi-hollow body player. I started with a 1961 ES330, 1968 ES335, 2002 Heritage H535, 2003 Gretsch G6120, as well as other lesser-known guitars. I currently own a 2017 S2, Singlecut Semi-Hollow.

A few months ago, I made a trip to a guitar shop to check out a Limited Edition, SE Semi-Hollow 22. I was disappointed when I played the guitar. I do own a nice Zach Myers, but at that time, I ran the racks of several music shops, before selecting my ZM. I don't buy anything, without first playing. When I saw a Hollowbody II hanging there, I gave it a try. I liked it, so I went to larger PRS dealer, where they were offering me a discount. I played another Hollowbody II and it was just as nice as the first one. I bought it and after a few months, here are my thoughts.

I'm very happy with the sound and playability. I'm a 40 plus year player (15 years professionally), and play rockabilly, jazz and Americana. It didn't need any fret dressing, change in bridge, nut or pickups. John Mann said, if you own a Hollowbody II or piezo, I don't think that you would notice much difference, upgrading to one of my bridges. I'm happy with the 58/15S pickups. They give me the type of sound that I'm used to getting from vintage Gibsons. Which is strange to me, because I really don't care for the sound of the same pickups, in my S2 McCarty SC 594. The MIC SE Hollowbody II, actually seems closer to core PRS guitars, than my beloved MIA S2's. YMMV!


 
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I have an SE HB II w/ Piezo and a McCarty 594 HB II. The McCarty was 3 times the price of the SE, but the SE is the one with binding (purfling?) on the F holes. But as much as I admire the beauty of the SE, the McCarty is the one that calls out to me.

Same thing with my SE 24-08 and Core CU24. The 24-08 is an excellent guitar, but the CU24 calls out to me. Luckily I bought that one used, so it’s “only” twice as expensive.

OTOH I also have an *amazing* SE Silver Sky and 2 Zach Myers, which scratch the Les Paul itch.
 
This has been a very informative thread and I thank all who have contributed. A question: is there any discernible difference in the sound (plugged and unplugged) between the SE Standard (mahogany) and the SE ll (maple) hollow body models? I own a standard and it's fine but when compared to my maple bodied Epiphone Casino the PRS is much darker and quieter sounding when unplugged. I know it's apples to oranges comparing a larger bodied Casino to the SE Hollowbody but the difference is huge. That said, I love both the PRS and the Epiphone equally but I wonder if a maple body SE ll would be brighter even though we're talking about laminated guitars here.
 
That's exactly what I am saying.. I feel like I have to pay 500% more for 10% better (Actually it's 800% for me because I bought an used SE), or maybe 20% better. Let's say 500% more for 30% better. Definitely it's not even for 100% better. But I still have the CORE in my cart...ready to purchase at anytime if someone could change my mind...

I hear this "last 10%" description often... and my take is, it depends on what that last 10% is made of.

I had (and still have) a nice rack full of SE and S2 models, and somehow avoided murder-by-wife after purchasing three Core instruments last year. And, yeah, I would say the Core models have 10-20% more of the "it" factor over the S2's and SE's. By that, I mean, the Core models have the extra little bit that you just can't get on a cheaper instrument. Not saying what the Core models do is always the tool for the job, for example, if I were laying down hard rock rhythms, I would very likely pick one of my SE or S2 guitars because they throw more weight in the low mids. But, the Core instruments (at least the ones I have) serve a wider variety of musical styles by virtue of having a personality that just takes a lot more budget to get that last "little" bit. When I say "little," I mean numerically... where the rubber hits the road, 10-20% is a pretty significant difference.
 
I know I haven’t posted before, but here are my thoughts:

First of all, I own two Core guitars, a Singlecut McCarty 594 Wood Library and a Custom 24 10 Top. A little while ago I decided that I wanted a Hollowbody, just because in 25 years of playing I had never owned a hollowbody guitar (many semi hollows though, including PRS). I also wanted to get a third PRS just because of my love for PRS instruments (for me they are the best in the world).

But since I knew I was going to play the hollowbody only occasionally, perhaps a few hours a month, I decided to go SE because I really liked the specs.

So I ordered one, and long story short, after playing it for a couple of days, I returned it. It was… a good guitar. And that’s it. It was exactly as good as all other ~1000€ Asian built guitars. Not better, not worse, but the same. In fact it felt pretty much identical to my Epiphone 355 (also built in China). The frets in the SE were a little better (not perfect), but other than that there wasn’t anything better about it. It was ok, good even. 1000€ Asian guitars usually are ok. But not even on the same planet as Core models. I have not played a Core Hollowbody, but if I was serious about hollowbody guitars (if it was something I played all the time), I would save up for a Core model, because the SE is nothing spectacular. It played ok, sounded and looked pretty good, and I enjoyed playing it. But there was no reason for me to keep it (kept the Epiphone though!).

I guess I could recommend it if it served a practical purpose, but for the same money I know that I can easily get guitars just as good that serve more practical purposes for myself. But desire-wise, it didn’t really scratch the itch. Still looking for something to complete my PRS trifecta.
 
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A little while ago I decided that I wanted a Hollowbody, just because in 25 years of playing I had never owned a hollowbody guitar (many semi hollows though, including PRS).
…and then….
In fact it felt pretty much identical to my Epiphone 355 (also built in China).

Am I the only one confused by these two seemingly conflicting statements?
 
Interesting, The Bird. I'm certainly not going to argue with the validity of your experience or "rightness" of your judgment on the HB, but it's pretty different from mine.

My experience with sub-1,000.00 hollowbodies isn't vast, I guess, but includes Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and Indonesian full-depth (2.75" or more) as well as shallower instruments, with examples from the 80s through this decade. Not every brand or model, of course - no Eastman, Yamaha, or D'Angelico - but Epiphone (MIC Casino), the Peerless-made Carlo Robelli (two, both 17" full-depth), Ibanez Artcore (thinline hollow AFS-75), modern Guilds, and a slew of Gretschs in all price ranges.

On that experience, I'd agree that the SE HB build quality isn't miles beyond the high end of current Gretsch Electromatics, the Gulds, or even the Artcore (now 18 years old), though the refinement of the spec and the hardware are, I think, superior to those. The Casino and the Peerless (Carlo Robelli-branded) are both well built and have proven stable and reliable, but neither has the tidy, unitary and, again, refined, feel of the HBII.

But I can't even properly compare those guitars with each other (or the HB) - other than that they're all "hollowbodies" of some description. Their build specs are just so different. Most are 24.75" scale, a few are 25.5; virtually all are either 16" or 17" across the lower bout, and they're either 2.25" or shallower on one end - or 3" or deeper at the other. All have either stud-mounted or floating-base bridges with trapeze tailpiece or a Bigsby. Most are all-maple; some a mix of mahogany and maple. Most necks are maple. Varieties of bracing. Each is pretty different from the others in terms of its native tone and acoustic response, and thus what I'm most inclined to play on them.

The HB Standard's specs differ significantly from any of them: 25" scale, 2.5" depth, and 14" body (like none of the others), chunky soundpost under a stoptail bridge, and all-mahogany body and neck. At least to my ear, that specific build recipe yields a different tone and a different note envelope than any of the others have. (I do have one other 14" "hollowbody," the fully-enclosed Guild Aristocrat - and several 14" semi-hollows.)

I haven't thoroughly trawled the recent offerings of, say, Yamaha, Ibanez, Eastman, or D'Angelico looking for guitars of the HBII's spec (25", 2.5" x 14", stud-mounted stoptail)...but I don't think it's a common build at its price point, or at any other.

Of the guitars I know, the Epi Casino, Gretsch G5422, and Iby Artcore AFS-75 come closest to the PRS spec - but they're all wider bodied, shorter-scale, and even shallower. I like and have kept hose guitars - but the pickups aren't entirely satisfying in any of them and/or they needed other hardware substitution or tweaks to bring them to pro standards.

I currently have two HB Standards, and both came to me (a year apart) truly perfect across every parameter: build quality, fit-n-finish, frets and action, stability, you name it. I really don't know what could be done to improve them. I understand they aren't universally loved, but I'm impressed by the 85/15 S pickups in every guitar I've heard them in - and I haven't got excited about a Gibson-looking humbucker in nearly 20 years. (I'm more often about Filter'Trons, DynaSonics, and P90s.) The feel, the acoustic response, the range of tone I get from the HBs are ... geez, I don't know. Wonderful, I guess. Smooth but articulate, lovely round attack curve, just the right mix of overtone resonance and sustain, great expressive range.

When I think about it after the fact, the HB's unique spec yields what I should have expected from a PRS hollowbody: there's that focused tone and bright articulation, but transplanted into a hollower soundbox, and sounding like it. On that point, it's kinda moot whether it's as good as, better, or no better than other hollowbodies in the same price range. It's the only hollowbody I know of with its unique spec.

And, without having played the Core HBII (so full disclosure of my ignorance), I would expect it to have more in common sonically with the SE HBII than with other brands' hollowbodies, with their more conventional specifications.

I should probably emphasize that both my HBs are the Standard - all mahogany, body and neck. I haven't played or heard the maple-topped II version in person. It's possible that the maple top brings it closer to the tonal behavior of other brands' hollowbody builds. But I went for the all-mahogany purposely because I was intrigued by that spec, which made the guitar unique in my collection. Frankly, it wouldn't have to have been as good as it is to satisfy my sense of value.

And I should say that I put 11s on my first one; I still have the factory 10s on the other. The guitars sound significantly different with the two gauges. The one with 11s is noticeably fuller and richer - more acoustically satisfying and more authoritative, with wider dynamic range - than the 10-strung example. Bigger. It's a bigger-sounding instrument; I have the feeling that the 11s get a whole lot more shakin' goin' on with the top and body - that they truly exploit the hollowness of the body.

But there's sure to be a sonic difference between the all-hog Standard and the maple-topped II. Which did you have? If the HBII (maple-top), maybe it just wasn't different enough from the pack to stand out. And if it was the Standard, and your experience wasn't compelling, I wonder if it had a poor setup, lifeless strings, or rare QC issues. I'm curious in what way it wasn't "perfect." (No matter how fine-tooth I comb them, I can't find a flaw in mine.) Or ... how you may have liked it with 11s instead of 10s.

I consider mine an ideal midpoint, both tonally and in response, between the twangjangle (Gretsch) or sting, bite, and bloom (P90 Gibsons) of "thinline" hollowbodies (2.25" or shallower) - and the full-throated big-block tone of the full-deep (2.75" and more) machines. I guess it makes sense that PRS would find the middle way between those archetypal tones.

Nother words, I don't know that the SE HB is supposed to scratch a traditional hollowbody itch.
 
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I understand Em7 as a person who looks at every detail in a build, has very high standards, and is a proud Marylander in every regard. I do believe that the SE’s are PRS and that they are not built to the same standards as the Maryland guitars, because they simply cannot be. Nothing has ever come close to my avatar guitar, even though I bought it as a road warrior. I still have and will always have SE guitars. Like every other brand there are some magic ones. The difference is that the very best I have played are Core, and I think that is to his point.
The Hollowbody Standard is not as bright as the HBll. To my ears, the Standard is the best 335 I ever played, and a damn fine jazzbox. The 335 and 330 I used to own were not on the same level in any regard as the PRS imports. I love laminated Hollowbodies and always will. They are not carved top Hollowbodies, and I don’t believe they are intended to be. I still have a carved top non cutaway 16” archtop. Nothing else will do for 20’s, 30’s, 40’s music. The response is immediate, and with arm strength and heavier strings, the sound cannot be duplicated. The core Hollowbodies have their own sound, not like laminates or my beloved archaic archtops. I think it’s called progress, but you don’t have to love only one of the aforementioned sounds. Each type does a different thing. That’s why we have different guitars- for different sounds. There is no better/best to my ears, just an array of different sounds. That’s why we own more than one guitar.
 
Amen, brudder, to virtually all of that. You boiled it downer than I do.

Now that you mention it, I too can hear the HB Standard as related to the 335. A 335 was my main ride for several years of intensive playing, and remains a tonal touchstone for me. The HB is just that much more open and airy, without losing the rounded focus of the centerblock.

My ear is always looking for the perfect balance of wood and air, which I invariably find in very chambered "solidbodies" (Gretsch Jet for instance), enclosed thin hollowbodies (Guild Aristocrat, Airline Tuxedo, Gretsch Electrotone bodies, and the most lightly center-blocked semis). I think of them all as lying along a continuum between full hollow jazz boxes and solidbodies - and I think the HB Standard (if not the maple-topper, which I haven't played) is in that range. Probably why it's naturally such a comfortable and even comforting response and sound for me.

And, as you say, other guitars for other adventures. Lots of guitars, lots of adventures.
 
…and then….


Am I the only one confused by these two seemingly conflicting statements?
What’s conflicting about them, do you think? All I meant was, and maybe I wasn’t clear enough, that they feel pretty much the same to play along the neck and fretboard. The finish and carve of the neck are pretty close to each other. Both are pretty good, but a satin finish or something would make it nicer to play, IMO. Obviously they don’t feel the same in terms of mass and weight.

I might still try a Core Hollowbody someday. The hollowbody thing is interesting, and I found it to be a different enough experience playing a hollowbody than a semi-hollow that I should pursue it more. Maybe a bigger jazz box though. An old PRS archtop hollowbody would be amazing, but they are quite rare where I live.
 
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It matters less to me where the guitars are built than how they're built - and how well. Those things are publicly acknowledged and documented (as is not the case with, oh, say, Duesenberg). The exhaustively accurate pedigree on the backs of SE headstocks makes the source clear. It can be taken as a disclaimer or mark of dishonor (for those inclined to see it that way). I like that it's there, because I have as much respect and gratitude for the people who build the guitars in Korea, China, and Indonesia as those who build the S2s, CEs, and Cores in Maryland. If anything, it's more impressive that they're building so much guitar, so well, at the SE price points than that the Marylanders build the others at their price point.
A lot of the difference is due to paying first-world versus third-world wages. However, the materials used in the Maryland-made guitars are generally higher quality.

Cort has been contract manufacturing guitars for a long time. The very first guitar I purchased in 1976 was a Cortez LP copy. Cortez was an early Cort brand. I quickly replaced that guitar with a LP Custom in 1977. With the exception of a 1983 FugiGen-manufactured Fender Strat from the period of time when Fender had ceased production of guitars in the U.S. and a 1992 FugiGen-manufactured Ibanez S540, every guitar I have ever owned has been American made. I purchase American-made guitars because they are not made by arbitraged labor. Every day low prices lead to every day low wages.

I will never recognize SEs as real PRS guitars just as I do not recognize Squiers as Fender guitars and Epiphones as Gibson guitars. Heck, I would not play an SE if it was given to me. That is how strongly I feel about the SE line. As a native Maryland who grew up not far from the original factory on Virginia Street, a PRS is not a PRS unless it is made in Maryland by Marylanders. They are my neighbors. I watched the company grow from nothing to what it is today. So many American brands have turned into American brands in name only thanks in large part to Neutron Jack. Labor arbitrage is not a good thing for anyone except investors. Most people work for a living.
 
Inspired by this thread I went to my local guitar store to try an SE Hollowbody II. The one I had myself was an SE Hollowbody Standard (the store didn’t have the Standard in stock. The one I had was ordered online). I actually liked it better than the already good SE Hollowbody Standard, probably because it sounded more like the 335-style semi-hollows I am familiar with. I still didn’t quite get on with the initial attack of the pick (the front of the note), probably because I am not used to full hollowbody guitars.

I almost bought it. It had even better frets than the one I returned, probably because it has been played a lot in the store. The glossy neck felt worse, though, possibly for the same reasons (a lot of sweat and gunk from random hobos). The reason I passed on it was because I compared it to some other guitars in the store, and it was not my favorite sounding one. Sometimes you maybe shouldn’t make comparisons.
 
Dude…..
I’ve never heard of Boscoe until just now when you posted this.
Checked him out…. And I am amazed. Thank you!!!

You may resume your previously scheduled thread.
You can get an appreciation for Boscoe by watching his videos, but you really need to experience him in person. His appearances at Experience have been wonderful, and he can get his points across in a way that really sticks. The one that stands out for me was when he covered "Folsom Prison Blues" and played it on slide. I don't have the greatest memory for remembering alternate tunings, so I wanted to make sure I made a note of it, but the way he said it, I've never looked at the note and I still remember it. As Boscoe put it, "It's G-B-D-G-B-D - Great Big Dog, Great Big Dog." And here it is, six or eight years later, and it's like I just heard it (and yes, I hear it in his drawl).

Great player, great person. And the story behind his green CU22 is epic.
 
The body looks weird to me on the SE’s. I’m aware of the reasons why they are that way but…

When these came out, my first impression was that they just found the people making the knockoffs and legitimized them through a licensing deal. :p

I do love some of my SE’s though. As I have said before, my favorite SE’s are the ones that don’t have a Maryland counterpart.
 
In my pursuit of “jazz tone” I tried Seth Lovers in my SE HBII and it sounds great. This will likely keep me from shopping for a “jazz box” for a while. However, the “jazz box” I’d be looking at would be an Ibanez GB-10EM. My experience with the Ibanez HBs in the Artcore line is that they are very good. I had the double cutaway 93 and it was a fantastic guitar.

Also for all you folks buying Cores, personally I think the SEs, which is all I own, are excellent guitars. My buddy, a pro jazz guy in Minneapolis/St Paul, bought an SE HBII after playing mine, this is a guy who owns a D’Angelico made by the man himself. I have played cores and: One I didn’t notice any difference in playability (which is all I care about), and two there is no way in hell I will ever be a good enough player to justify a $5000 guitar. Your opinion of yourself might vary, as might your disposable income.

But this elitist attitude pisses me off. A pro knows a guitar is a tool the amateur may or may not have the wherewithal to justify such a purchase, but I’ll be damned if I am going to listen to some self important guy disparage purchases, that I worked hard to justify.
 
But this elitist attitude pisses me off. A pro knows a guitar is a tool the amateur may or may not have the wherewithal to justify such a purchase, but I’ll be damned if I am going to listen to some self important guy disparage purchases, that I worked hard to justify.
Brother… we all work hard to justify whatever purchases we make. Ultimately, when we hold a “tool” in our hands and we fall in actual love with that “tool”, the decision is no longer ours. If that instrument is what you’ve fallen in love with, there’s no answering to others for it. It’s your love!
Some of us have fallen in love with cores, others have fallen in love with Se models and others S2 models. It’s not a status symbol…. It’s a relationship of love.
 
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