High Action on CU24SE

[Acnestes]

Happy New Year All!
I've been a guitar junkie since the 60's, but have really only come into the PRS scene very recently when a briefly preowned but essentially unplayed and pristine CU24SE threw itself into my arms over the holidays. This is a 2018 which the number on the hang tag, when Googled, identifies as a Limited Edition, evidently limited to Guitar Center or Musician's Friend. Indonesian heritage. Beautiful guitar, amazing flamed, faded cherryburst

There is much to like about this guitar, enough that I replaced the original tremolo with a John Mann unit which improves the sound immensely. However, I have a problem which I experienced both with the original bridge, and with the MannMade, which is that even with the saddles lowered to within a hair's breadth of the bridge, with reasonable nut height and with the neck relief adjusted dead flat, I cannot get the action on either of the E-strings any lower than a hair under 5/64" at the twelfth fret, which is not great and I don't think really even quite meets factory spec.

My theories all involve some aspect of the neck/body joint (it's a set neck) being out of spec - either there is a slightly forward join angle or the socket is too deep or the tang on the neck too thin, the result being that the strings sit too high above the fingerboard.

The mounting of the tremolo, which is right on the money, doesn't allow for much wiggle room, being only 1/16" above the face of the guitar. So, the options would seem to be to either file down the bottoms of the bridge saddles to allow them to be adjusted lower, or to file down the saddles themselves at the string contact point, both of which seem a bit radical right out of the box. Maybe someone makes a thinner saddle as an aftermarket part?

Has anyone else dealt with or encountered this, or have any thoughts on it?

 

[Wakester]

It kind of sounds like you need to check your neck relief. If there is too much back/concave bow, it will feel as though you have high string action.

 

[Acnestes]

It kind of sounds like you need to check your neck relief. If there is too much back/concave bow, it will feel as though you have high string action.

I wish! As I said, the relief is dead flat. I know how to set up a guitar, and this is beyond adjustability.

 

[11top]

It’s always bugs me when I can’t lower the strings to an unacceptable point. That may sound a little weird, but then I can adjust upward knowing that I have the action set as low as it can go to please me.

I know what I’m trying to say.

 

[Acnestes]

It’s always bugs me when I can’t lower the strings to an unacceptable point. That may sound a little weird, but then I can adjust upward knowing that I have the action set as low as it can go to please me.

I know what I’m trying to say.

That is exactly where I'm coming from! Seriously, though, the guitar came strung with .009's, which are so loosey-goosey it's still fun even with the action on the high side. I put a set of hybrid slinky's on it when the tremolo was changed out, so that's still going on, but ultimately I want to set it up for .010's, which is my preferred gauge, and I'm afraid the action will be uncomfortably stiff If I can't lower it beyond where it is.

 

[Rider1260]

A neck is NOT supposed to be dead flat under string tension , to get proper action you need relief.
Capo 1st fret - hold down string at last fret there should be about a papers width ( or a bit more ) between the 7th - 8th fret and the string
you will then be able to set your bridge height ( Knife edge screws ) to a usable height ( someplace between a 2 -2.5 mm Allen ) then set saddle height.
Lots of videos on youtube.
Good Luck !!!

 

[Acnestes]

A neck is NOT supposed to be dead flat under string tension , to get proper action you need relief.
Capo 1st fret - hold down string at last fret there should be about a papers width ( or a bit more ) between the 7th - 8th fret and the string
you will then be able to set your bridge height ( Knife edge screws ) to a usable height ( someplace between a 2 -2.5 mm Allen ) then set saddle height.
Lots of videos on youtube.
Good Luck !!!

Thanks for the good wishes! As it happens, the tremolo was installed and adjusted by John Mann personally before my very eyes and it is dead on, precisely 1/16" above and parallel to the surface of the guitar. A flat neck, though often not a realistic ideal, will nevertheless provide a basic lower action at the twelfth fret than even a slight bow, and in fact if I dial in some relief the action predictably gets higher. Relief is really a compromise to avoid string buzz with low action. Again, we seem to be beyond the ability of standard adjustments to do anything about this and so far I see no alternative but surgery on the saddles or finding thinner replacements.

 

[Rider1260]

"A flat neck, though often not a realistic ideal, will nevertheless provide a basic lower action at the twelfth fret"

Sorry I disagree with you on this point !!! Neck angle , Bridge height , Nut height and relief all play a roll in a great playing guitar all these adjustment play a part in getting the most out of an instrument.

Another thing 1/16" off the body is a nice place to start for the trem but before I would modify the saddles I would lower the trem screws a bit.
I've talked to John about setting up the trem , there is nothing wrong with the trem being closer to the body bet we are taking about less that .5 mm ( .019685 in )
All 9 of my Trem equipped PRS have slight differences in the bridge height to get the action the same on all of them.

 

[gush]

I have 6 prs trem guitars and they are all set at different heights as far as the 1/16 is concerned.

Don't be afraid to go lower, just make sure the trem doesn't hit the body throughout its movement.

 

[AP515]

I agree with @gush. Take it lower and see of you get the action you want and still have room to use the trem.

 

[Acnestes]

"A flat neck, though often not a realistic ideal, will nevertheless provide a basic lower action at the twelfth fret"

Sorry I disagree with you on this point !!! Neck angle , Bridge height , Nut height and relief all play a roll in a great playing guitar all these adjustment play a part in getting the most out of an instrument.

Another thing 1/16" off the body is a nice place to start for the trem but before I would modify the saddles I would lower the trem screws a bit.
I've talked to John about setting up the trem , there is nothing wrong with the trem being closer to the body bet we are taking about less that .5 mm ( .019685 in )
All 9 of my Trem equipped PRS have slight differences in the bridge height to get the action the same on all of them.

"A flat neck, though often not a realistic ideal, will nevertheless provide a basic lower action at the twelfth fret"

Sorry I disagree with you on this point !!! Neck angle , Bridge height , Nut height and relief all play a roll in a great playing guitar all these adjustment play a part in getting the most out of an instrument.

Another thing 1/16" off the body is a nice place to start for the trem but before I would modify the saddles I would lower the trem screws a bit.
I've talked to John about setting up the trem , there is nothing wrong with the trem being closer to the body bet we are taking about less that .5 mm ( .019685 in )
All 9 of my Trem equipped PRS have slight differences in the bridge height to get the action the same on all of them.

I agree with you about all the factors interacting, but the whole point of relief is to eliminate buzz, and if the strings are so high they that buzz isn't an issue, relief will only make the strings higher off the fingerboard.

 

[Acnestes]

Lowering the tremolo screws certainly is a lot more conservative than removing material and there seems to be a consensus so I reckon I'll give it a whirl! Hopefully I'll get it low enough I'll need to dial in some relief. ;-)
Thanks everyone! I'll let you know how it works out!

 

[gush]

Good luck

 

[Acnestes]

Good Morning All,
You were right, lowering the tremolo did the trick. To tell the truth, though I'm generally happy to try any kind of adjustments that doesn't involve removing material, I think all the warnings about breaking the mounting screws and 1/16" mounting put The Fear into me and I just didn't consider playing with it. With your encouragement, though, I plunged ahead and used a 1.5 mm Allen key rather than the 2.5mm recommended as a guide and things are much improved The high E sits at 3/64" and the low E at a bit under 4/64". Though low, the tremolo itself has plenty of play for my purposes.

I'm still on board with 11top, though. I find it frustrating that the adjustment range on the saddles isn't wider, at least as far as lowering them goes. Not that I'd be likely to go much beyond where it is, but I'd like to have the option. I personally have a light touch with the tremolo so the low mounting is fine for me, but I can see where someone with a heavier hand might find it restrictive. In a perfect world, I would make the bridge saddles maybe 1/16" or so thinner, possibly even tailor them individually according to the neck radius.

But I'm good for right now! Thanks again to everyone for the help!

 

[Acnestes]

Hey Team!
I am still pondering the mystery of why the action on this guitar just won't go as low as I think it should. So, I have a couple or three questions for anyone with a 24SE of any variety and a good ruler:
1) At the very end of the fingerboard (the body end), on your guitar, what is the measurement between the top of the body and the top edge of the fingerboard? Mine measures 12/64" on both the treble and bass edges.

2) If I run a straightedge down the center of the fingerboard between the D and G strings and extend it till it touches the saddles, the measurement between the straightedge and the base plate of the vibrato is 11/64". What is it on your guitar?

2) Does it occur to you that, when viewed upside down, the marker on the 24th fret looks kind of like a penguin, and the one on the 21st kind of like a cat climbing or leaping upward? Or have I been staring at this for too long?

Thanks again!

 

[cwk84]

Hey Team!
I am still pondering the mystery of why the action on this guitar just won't go as low as I think it should. So, I have a couple or three questions for anyone with a 24SE of any variety and a good ruler:
1) At the very end of the fingerboard (the body end), on your guitar, what is the measurement between the top of the body and the top edge of the fingerboard? Mine measures 12/64" on both the treble and bass edges.

2) If I run a straightedge down the center of the fingerboard between the D and G strings and extend it till it touches the saddles, the measurement between the straightedge and the base plate of the vibrato is 11/64". What is it on your guitar?

2) Does it occur to you that, when viewed upside down, the marker on the 24th fret looks kind of like a penguin, and the one on the 21st kind of like a cat climbing or leaping upward? Or have I been staring at this for too long?

Thanks again!

Did you solve the mystery? I'm in the same boat. I can't get the action low enough to feel good for me. I'm currently sitting at .06 which is OK but I already have loads of string buzz and I have a visible bow in the neck already (relief .010). Every time I ask someone they tell me to adjust the relief. But it don't matter how much I adjust it I can't get the string as low as on a Jackson or Shecter. It feels like I'm playing an acoustic guitar if set it up so there's no string buzz with the action being about .07. I want it at .05 without string buzz. I already lowered the trem so I can get exactly one half step up when using the trem arm. So it's quite low but not low enough for it to not he functional.

 

[Acnestes]

Did you solve the mystery? I'm in the same boat. I can't get the action low enough to feel good for me. I'm currently sitting at .06 which is OK but I already have loads of string buzz and I have a visible bow in the neck already (relief .010). Every time I ask someone they tell me to adjust the relief. But it don't matter how much I adjust it I can't get the string as low as on a Jackson or Shecter. It feels like I'm playing an acoustic guitar if set it up so there's no string buzz with the action being about .07. I want it at .05 without string buzz. I already lowered the trem so I can get exactly one half step up when using the trem arm. So it's quite low but not low enough for it to not he functional.

Hi Christian,
I arrived at an explanation anyway! In short, it was a lemon that should never have left the factory. After looking as some other examples of the guitar I realized the neck joint really was a mess as I'd suspected. Either the socket was too deep or the tang of the neck too thin. The result was that the neck sat so deep in the socket that that not only was the edge of the fingerboard binding flush with the top of the guitar, instead of being about 3/16" above, but to add insult to injury you can feel a slight concavity where they actually milled down the surface of the body around the socket so it wouldn't be even worse, so they knew it was screwed up and went ahead with it anyway! To sneak it through QC they must have set it up with a back-bow, which you could actually do because the action was otherwise so high! To bring the action down just to the PRS 5/64" spec I had to lower the trem to about 1/16 and drop all the saddles practically flush. To actually make the action actually decent, I had to file the saddles down 1/16". That was liveable for a while but after about a year I got frustrated with the limited vibrato travel that resulted and sold it off.

Since then, I got a brand new one (2019), also a CU24SE (though Korean rather than Indonesian) and it is an excellent guitar as almost all of them are, but it goes to show you no one is immune to dropping the occasional clunker. I'd be interested to hear if yours has the same issue. The binding (or the edge of the fingerboard if it's unbound) touching the body was the giveaway!

 

[cwk84]

I have a similar problem. But I think I'm just expecting the guitar to be able to handle too low of an action. I was just told by someone ok FB that an action of .05" measured at the 12th fret is pushing it for any guitar. I'm a little confused now Maybe I just have to live with high action on my SE.

 

[Acnestes]

I have a similar problem. But I think I'm just expecting the guitar to be able to handle too low of an action. I was just told by someone ok FB that an action of .05" measured at the 12th fret is pushing it for any guitar. I'm a little confused now Maybe I just have to live with high action on my SE.

I don't know that I'd call that high. I play .010's and try for 1/16" on the high E and 1/16"- 3/32" on the low E with just a hair of relief and that's considered modestly low.
Keep in mind too, that if you don't hear it through the amp it's not that much of an issue.

 

[cwk84]

I don't know that I'd call that high. I play .010's and try for 1/16" on the high E and 1/16"- 3/32" on the low E with just a hair of relief and that's considered modestly low.
Keep in mind too, that if you don't hear it through the amp it's not that much of an issue.

I should have clarified that my SE can't be set to .05 currently without major fret buzz. That's my issue. I can raise it to .07 to eliminate audible buzz coming through the amp but that's what I consider high action. It doesn't feel comfortable to play especially on the higher frets. Someone on FB told me that .05mm is super low and pushing it for most guitars. If that is the truth I might have to look into getting Yngwie Malmsteen signature with a scalloped neck Maybe I need to go down to 9s instead of 10s as well.