Hell Has Frozen Over.

[László]

I've said many times on various forums that fancy AC power cables do nothing I can hear. I've said that Hell will freeze over before anyone hears the difference between AC cords on a guitar amp.

A few days ago I decided I wanted a shorter power cord for my main studio power supply because of the way I have it installed. By coincidence, I saw that Lava was having a sale, and for only four times as much as a regular AC cord, I decided WTF, I'll get this because it's incredibly heavy duty, and that's a good thing -- even though I knew it wouldn't matter at ALL sonically.

So just for grins, before installing it in the power unit I have, I tried it with the DG 30 because the amp came with a removable IEC cord. I figured I could prove to myself, once again, that power cables don't matter at all.

Long story short, I hear a difference. I went back and forth between the power cables. The amp seemed a little crisper and more dynamic with the Lava cord.

Now, I'm with you -- I know this is utterly and completely impossible! I am 100% sure that it's all in my head, yada yada, but gosh darn it...there's something different.

Then I installed the cable in the studio power supply, and I don't think I hear a difference there with my recording gear or listening to music.

Hell freezing over re: the guitar amp? I'm not sayin' -- I'm just sayin.'

DISCLAIMER - I AGREE THAT THIS AIN'T SCIENCE AND IT'S NOT ONLY ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE, IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL, EVEN TO ME. At the same time, I'm hearing something -- as far as I can tell it isn't my imagination. It seems entirely real.

And yes, I agree, the mind can play tricks.

 

[bodia]

Plausible. I mean, come on, the Cubs almost made it to the World Series this year. So by that line of thinking Hell was already frosted.

 

[justmund]

If it's lower resistance it will have an effect yeah? Less voltage drop over the cable = more voltage to the power tranny. It may be very, very small though...

 

[Dusty Chalk]

<devil's advocate mode>Warm-up would also play a difference, so the only way to make a fair comparison is to have two of the exact same amp, and use one of each power cord.</devil's advocate mode>

<full disclosure>I was part of a panel that conducted this test (without the above) on high end headphone amps in double blind mode, and I ended up preferring the cheaper, 10 for $2.99 cables.</full disclosure>

So I'm still a skeptic, is all I'm saying.

 

[László]

<devil's advocate mode>Warm-up would also play a difference, so the only way to make a fair comparison is to have two of the exact same amp, and use one of each power cord.</devil's advocate mode>

<full disclosure>I was part of a panel that conducted this test (without the above) on high end headphone amps in double blind mode, and I ended up preferring the cheaper, 10 for $2.99 cables.</full disclosure>

The problem with your suggestion is that two supposedly identical amps aren't really identical. Tubes all measure a bit differently, pots measure differently, etc. Even on a high end studio console there can be as much as 20% parts tolerance variation on certain parts on adjacent, supposedly identical channels. It's the same with guitar amps, and that goes double for hand-wired guitar amps. No two sound absolutely identical.

Here's what I did:

Both AC cords were kept plugged in to the AC box. I simply switched off the amp, switched the cable, and switched the amp back on. Took a couple of seconds. If the amp cooled down during those seconds, it did the same thing with both cables, so cool-down and warm-up couldn't have been much of a variable.

I don't think it could have been done faster, and since it's the same amp, I didn't have to worry about tolerance variables.

Incidentally, 20 years ago I had my studio tech do a double blind test with speaker cables because he bet me that I couldn't tell the difference. I got it right 9 out of ten times (anything greater than 50% is statistically significant). He was so angry at losing the bet that we repeated the test several times. It worked out the same or better. He left my studio literally shouting, "something must have been wrong that we didn't account for!!"

He didn't speak to me for two weeks, and never bought me the beer we bet. Sour dude!

However, I've never heard a power cord matter, ever, ever. No difference at all before this. So as to power cables, I'm a skeptic, too. I did NOT expect to hear a difference. In fact, I didn't even want to hear a difference. But honestly, I was kind of startled.

Of course, it could easily have been some sort of psychological phenomenon, though I can't imagine why I'd imagine hearing a more dynamic pick attack and high end, and not imagine angels singing or something. But that's the mind for ya.

So...here's the upshot of my evening tonight:

I put the new power cable on the balanced power supply and isolation transformer I use in the studio, which is what I got it for. Listening to music with complex passages, I didn't really notice a difference - if there was one, it was tiny and merely guesswork on my part. And playing my synths really didn't seem to sound different.

However...when I plugged the guitar amp into the power supply's unswitched outlets, the amp sounded a little more like it did when I plugged the new power cord into the amp itself, though it wasn't quite as startling.

So I plugged the power strip that powers both of my amps into the unswitched outlet, so that whatever residual effect there would be on the DG30, would also be on the HXDA. This isn't the first time I've plugged the amps into the balanced power transformer; I've done it many times since I've had the amps, and it's never made them sound any different.

Unfortunately the HXDA has a captive power cord, so I couldn't do a 'switch the cable' test as I did with the DG30. Did it sound very good? Yes. Did it sound better to me than usual? A little. Could this be my imagination at work? Absolutely!

I remain skeptical. As I said in my first post, I know this is impossible. But at the same time, I am really wondering why I seem to be perceiving an improvement in my amp tone.

Maybe it's...a miracle!!!

 

[László]

If it's lower resistance it will have an effect yeah? Less voltage drop over the cable = more voltage to the power tranny. It may be very, very small though...

I dunno...I mean, sure maybe it has some kind of lower resistance, but that accounts for only the last 6 feet of cable. The AC power is coming through the wall on standard house wiring (probably Romex). I don't see how it can really matter if the last 6 feet has lower resistance.

I believe I heard something...it was kind of like what I heard when I first used a good buffer on my pedalboard. Everything was a little crisper, a little more dynamic.

The question is, how is it possible that I heard some difference? I honestly have no idea, which is why I am questioning this and saying that obviously, Hell has frozen over and there are mystical fairies and gremlins involved, because in the real world, this doesn't happen.

It's impossible. But not only did I hear it, I plan on finding out if I can measure it.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

The problem with your suggestion is that two supposedly identical amps aren't really identical. Tubes all measure a bit differently, pots measure differently, etc. Even on a high end studio console there can be as much as 20% parts tolerance variation on certain parts on adjacent, supposedly identical channels. It's the same with guitar amps, and that goes double for hand-wired guitar amps. No two sound absolutely identical.

Yup. I knew that. I didn't post it because I knew you and probably everyone reading probably knew it too. You also eliminate the volume differential or anything related to position by doing it the way you did it. But you add in audio memory, which is very influencing on us humans.

And don't get me wrong -- when I say I will believe it when I hear it, I mean that -- if I do hear it, I will believe it. I remain skeptical, but open-minded. But I am not passively skeptical -- like a good skeptic, I will question. I've thought it through, and it just doesn't make any sense!

Have you seen the (garbled) in your walls? An electrical chain is only as strong as your weakest link, so unless it's doing some sort of filtering, there's no way it can clean up the power at the outlet. Now, if your AC box does both isolation and regeneration, like the PS Audio stuff, then I'd be more interested in what that cord did between the box and the amp, especially if there's any length between the two, to develop resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Because between shielding and just plain gauge, I could see that explaining a cleaner and more predictably good source of electricity.

 

[Rider1260]

Sometimes things just work out for the better
In this case I am thinking the cable gauge is larger allowing your transformer to do less work or to work in a better voltage to amperage area ( or it could be just voodoo )
As a general rule I custom make all my cable to be as short as possible and use the biggest gauge that is practical.
Anyway glad its helping even tho it weird

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I normally won't even get into these discussions, because they usually just end up as big arguments. (Although this is a kinder,gentler forum). One of my friends has another brand boutique amp that happens to begin with the last letter of the alphabet. :flute: He was a die hard believer that this wouldn't matter in any way. However, on a whim one day, he ordered a Mercury Magnetics power cable ONLY because it came in red, and his amp is red. The day he got it, he called me to say "you're not going to believe this, but I've flipped them back and forth 10 times, and then had my wife come in the room and start doing it so I didn't know which is which, and the MM cable sounds better and by enough that I guessed it right every single time."

I've heard lots of guys say it made a difference with their amps, and the MM cables are not expensive at all! So, what cable did you get, Les?

 

[G-Man]

While I have not done this experiment with guitar amplifiers, I have had some similar results for my stereo amplifiers - big power hungry Rotels. The only thing I can think of is the solid copper used in rolex is very conductive and cheaper chords have higher resistance causing less current to get to the amp transformers. Higher current makes the transformers heat up better and give higher plate voltage? Only thing I can think of......

 

[László]

Yup. I knew that. I didn't post it because I knew you and probably everyone reading probably knew it too. You also eliminate the volume differential or anything related to position by doing it the way you did it. But you add in audio memory, which is very influencing on us humans.

And don't get me wrong -- when I say I will believe it when I hear it, I mean that -- if I do hear it, I will believe it. I remain skeptical, but open-minded. But I am not passively skeptical -- like a good skeptic, I will question. I've thought it through, and it just doesn't make any sense!

Have you seen the (garbled) in your walls? An electrical chain is only as strong as your weakest link, so unless it's doing some sort of filtering, there's no way it can clean up the power at the outlet. Now, if your AC box does both isolation and regeneration, like the PS Audio stuff, then I'd be more interested in what that cord did between the box and the amp, especially if there's any length between the two, to develop resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Because between shielding and just plain gauge, I could see that explaining a cleaner and more predictably good source of electricity.

My studio AC is isolated from the AC with a 1 KVA isolation transformer, and the power is regenerated. The brand I use is Equi=Tech.

 

[László]

I normally won't even get into these discussions, because they usually just end up as big arguments. (Although this is a kinder,gentler forum). One of my friends has another brand boutique amp that happens to begin with the last letter of the alphabet. :flute: He was a die hard believer that this wouldn't matter in any way. However, on a whim one day, he ordered a Mercury Magnetics power cable ONLY because it came in red, and his amp is red. The day he got it, he called me to say "you're not going to believe this, but I've flipped them back and forth 10 times, and then had my wife come in the room and start doing it so I didn't know which is which, and the MM cable sounds better and by enough that I guessed it right every single time."

I've heard lots of guys say it made a difference with their amps, and the MM cables are not expensive at all! So, what cable did you get, Les?

I got a Lava AC cable, the only one they offer. Belden actually makes it for them. It's priced about half of what most of these amusingly expensive cables start at, and i got it on sale besides.

I actually got it just to have a very heavy duty cable to the piece of equipment that all of my other equipment is hooked up to. I figured a heavy cable would be robust and reliable. And it's red. I figured I'd see it and not trip on it when working on the racks.

 

[justmund]

Any chance of a couple of recordings Les? Maybe record a dry sample, then re-amp with fairy dust power cable and with normal power cable?

Even mess with us and put in 2 of the same recording into the sample and don't tell us which one is which (we will hear 3 samples, 2 are the same, one is "different", and we don't know which is different...)

 

[László]

Any chance of a couple of recordings Les? Maybe record a dry sample, then re-amp with fairy dust power cable and with normal power cable?

Even mess with us and put in 2 of the same recording into the sample and don't tell us which one is which (we will hear 3 samples, 2 are the same, one is "different", and we don't know which is different...)

I plan to record the amp and examine the waveforms to see if they're any different. When I do, I'll publish the tracks on soundcloud, and post links here. If the waveforms are different, I'll post those results, too.

As I said, even though I think there's a difference, it could simply be audio imagination making it sound better. So we shall see.

 

[kingsleyd]

Les, I'm right there with ya. The Lava power cable does sound (a little bit) better. I've tried it with a few different amps. As to why, well, think of the difference your power transformer and rectifier (esp. tube vs. diode) makes in your tube amp. And yeah, the quality of AC coming from the wall surely makes a difference, especially if the voltage fluctuates noticeably which it does in a lot of places. Isolation/regeneration, even basic conditioners all seem to help a little bit, if only with getting more consistent results and a little less AC hum. I think one thing it tells us is that the stock AC cables are kinda crappy, i.e., it's a case of less degradation rather than some amazing improvement.

It's an easy enough experiment to do yourself, y'all. The cost is one of the Lava power cables which, in the scheme of things relative to upmarket cables, is a bargain. If you hear it, you hear it. If you don't, you don't. Ain't nobody's bidness but your own.

If you do want a little independent confirmation, just drag some (relatively) disinterested person in and do a single-blind test. Wife/GF. Drummer. Little sister. Whoever. Several years ago I subjected my wife (GF at the time) to a 4-way guitar cable shootout, single-blind test. She IDed the cables with 100% accuracy. There you go. Confirmation bias on my part debunked. To be honest, I did not want those expensive cables to be better. But what I heard was consistent & undeniable.

 

[László]

Les, I'm right there with ya. The Lava power cable does sound (a little bit) better. I've tried it with a few different amps. As to why, well, think of the difference your power transformer and rectifier (esp. tube vs. diode) makes in your tube amp. And yeah, the quality of AC coming from the wall surely makes a difference, especially if the voltage fluctuates noticeably which it does in a lot of places. Isolation/regeneration, even basic conditioners all seem to help a little bit, if only with getting more consistent results and a little less AC hum. I think one thing it tells us is that the stock AC cables are kinda crappy, i.e., it's a case of less degradation rather than some amazing improvement.

It's an easy enough experiment to do yourself, y'all. The cost is one of the Lava power cables which, in the scheme of things relative to upmarket cables, is a bargain. If you hear it, you hear it. If you don't, you don't. Ain't nobody's bidness but your own.

If you do want a little independent confirmation, just drag some (relatively) disinterested person in and do a single-blind test. Wife/GF. Drummer. Little sister. Whoever. Several years ago I subjected my wife (GF at the time) to a 4-way guitar cable shootout, single-blind test. She IDed the cables with 100% accuracy. There you go. Confirmation bias on my part debunked. To be honest, I did not want those expensive cables to be better. But what I heard was consistent & undeniable.

Kingsley, I'm hearing it in the transients, especially clean, and the amp seems a little more dynamic. Is that what you're hearing also?

 

[kingsleyd]

Yes but also a little more clarity in the bass. Play "Day Tripper" (or your fave Duane Eddy tune) and you'll hear it.

 

[László]

Yes but also a little more clarity in the bass. Play "Day Tripper" (or your fave Duane Eddy tune) and you'll hear it.

Oh, I agree, but I think much of that clarity comes from high frequencies that are part of the bass signal adding that pick attack transient to the bass fundamental. The pick attack adds clarity.

OK, here's an even crazier thing. I decided to revisit swapping the AC cables for the balanced power supply unit that powers my whole studio, not just with the amps, but with music.

So I spent a couple hours this AM very carefully gain-staging my recording rig, and adjusting all the levels of all sources into my UA Apollo interface. DAW, CDs, digital files from hard disk, Amarra software, even iTunes. Everything could be repeated precisely to within a tenth of a db.

I also simplified my signal chain, taking everything unnecessary out of the path, including a monitor controller. The Apollo went straight into my powered monitors, a very fine set of Opals by Event (these are absolutely wonderful studio monitors and have been very well reviewed by many respected reviewers, and I like them better than my Genelecs). The Opals have bi-amping built in and generate a very clean 240 Watts RMS at the woofer and 100 at the tweeter, so they have plenty of dynamic range.

I didn't go into this kind of effort yesterday when I tried the Lava AC cable with the power supply simply listening to music. Sources today included my own mixes and mastered stuff, as well as high resolution files and CDs that I'm very, very familiar with.

First I listened with the heavy duty 14 AWG cable that came with my power supply.

Then I swapped the Lava cable. Obviously, I am not going to cut the cables apart to have a peek inside, so I don't know what the inner construction differences are.

I did this little (admittedly subjective, unscientific) test several times. The only thing that changed each time was the cable. All of the digital settings were exactly the same (the Apollo's volume control can be set within its accompanying software, again to a tenth of a db, but I simply left it at the setting I chose for each piece of music).

I listened to a selection of well-recorded rock, pop, jazz and classical music, from small ensembles to full orchestra and chorus. Here are my findings:

There was more dynamic range in the reproduction of the recorded tracks in every case. This was especially evident on tracks with well-recorded drums and percussion fills, as well as the orchestral passages with kettle drums and massed chorus. Vocals seem to have more power.

The overall sound was less "dry." The tracks sounded more "roomy." Bad sounding reverbs in mixes were ruthlessly revealed; some tracks whose mixes I really liked before sounded more dynamic but had way too much reverb for my taste!

Clearly, it matters whether this AC cable is attached to the first AC power device powering the whole studio. It matters that both guitar amps are now plugged into this power supply as well, although as I said earlier, the DG30 sounds even more dynamic when it has this cable directly plugged in to the amp. So I'll have to get another one.

DISCLAIMER: I AM ONLY REPORTING WHAT I HEAR. I HAVE NO EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS. IT *STILL* MAKES NO SENSE TO ME AT ALL.

ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT ANYONE ELSE DO THIS, AGREE WITH ME, OR ANYTHING OF THE KIND. THIS IS SIMPLY A REPORT AS TO MY OWN ADMITTEDLY SUBJECTIVE AND UNSCIENTIFIC LISTENING AND PLAYING TESTS.

 

[kingsleyd]

Oh, I agree, but I think much of that clarity comes from high frequencies that are part of the bass signal adding that pick attack transient to the bass fundamental. The pick attack adds clarity.

While there is more transient, the bass itself is cleaner and less wooly.

DISCLAIMER: I AM ONLY REPORTING WHAT I HEAR. I HAVE NO EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS. IT *STILL* MAKES NO SENSE TO ME AT ALL.

ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT ANYONE ELSE DO THIS, AGREE WITH ME, OR ANYTHING OF THE KIND. THIS IS SIMPLY A REPORT AS TO MY OWN ADMITTEDLY SUBJECTIVE AND UNSCIENTIFIC LISTENING AND PLAYING TESTS.

You don't need "proof" or an explanation. If you hear it, it's real for you and that's ALL that matters.

Everyone else can do the experiment for him/her ownself. At the end of the day, all sound is subjective inasmuch as it's only when your ears/body/brain process it that it has any meaning.

 

[László]

You don't need "proof" or an explanation. If you hear it, it's real for you and that's ALL that matters.

Everyone else can do the experiment for him/her ownself. At the end of the day, all sound is subjective inasmuch as it's only when your ears/body/brain process it that it has any meaning.

True enough. But I do wish to see if I can verify any of these observations through measurement. While I can't measure the response of the whole system - I honestly don't have the equipment to do that - I can measure the guitar amp's response at some point, and I will try to do that.

Right now, I want that power cord on the main power supply where it seems to be helping out the whole studio, but I'll get a second one for the DG30 and do some recording. I have a very accurate measurement microphone somewhere that might be a help, though my guess is that any good condenser should be able to capture the difference - assuming that there is one - if a difference even exists.

Again, I'm not ruling out listener error on my part.