Fractal FM3 / FC12 / EV-1s / Temple Audio Duo 17 & 34

[InTooDeep]

@CandidPicker Looks like fun! I do have a few points to mention as suggestions if you would like.
The AMP block has a mono input, so any stereo effects going in will be summed to mono at the input of the AMP block. For instance, one of the main features of the enhancer block is to create stereo separation between channels, this effect is lost when placed before the AMP block, maybe try experimenting with different locations? The chorus as well will have more flavor after the AMP block. That being said, its obviously up to you and your ears!

 

[CandidPicker]

@CandidPicker Looks like fun! I do have a few points to mention as suggestions if you would like.
The AMP block has a mono input, so any stereo effects going in will be summed to mono at the input of the AMP block. For instance, one of the main features of the enhancer block is to create stereo separation between channels, this effect is lost when placed before the AMP block, maybe try experimenting with different locations? The chorus as well will have more flavor after the AMP block. That being said, its obviously up to you and your ears!

True, but I've got the speaker block set to stereo (Choose S when selecting between M or S) which may our may not affect stereo chorus signal.

I'll try recreating my scenes with/without chorus after the cab block and see if it changes things significantly, and report back this afternoon.

 

[InTooDeep]

True, but I've got the speaker block set to stereo (Choose S when selecting between M or S) which may our may not affect stereo chorus signal.

If you are talking about the CAB block, the M is Mute and the S is Solo. I believe the CAB block passes through whatever comes in mono or stereo.

 

[CandidPicker]

If you are talking about the CAB block, the M is Mute and the S is Solo. I believe the CAB block passes through whatever comes in mono or stereo.

Doh! I thought it meant mono/stereo. Anyway, I tried the chorus after the cab blocks, and yes, a remarkable change. Here's how the 3 HBII scenes look now. Note what I used for the delay setting on the 3rd scene. The volume is audibly lower in the 1st and 3rd scenes. The 1st because the enhance block is not engaged. The 3rd scene because the delay lowers the volume just before output. May need to try to boost that slightly. Note that the delay is shunted during the 1st 2 scenes.

EDIT: Just realized that my 2nd scene had the wrong delay set on channel B, which may have affected volume even though the delay was bypassed. Got it straightened out now.

 

[InTooDeep]

I personally prefer Delay before or parallel to Reverb, with the Enhancer block last before the output block. If you do parallel effects, set the mix to 100% and then adjust the level (usually down) Just some stuff to mess around with!

 

[CandidPicker]

I personally prefer Delay before or parallel to Reverb, with the Enhancer block last before the output block. If you do parallel effects, set the mix to 100% and then adjust the level (usually down) Just some stuff to mess around with!

May I ask, why place the enhancer last in the signal chain?

Will try what you suggest and observe my settings. Back again in a few minutes.

 

[CandidPicker]

Wow! What a difference! Although it was necessary to dial back on the Reverb & Delay mix levels, it was also possible to boost my output level to -6 dB from -12 dB.

Apparently, placing the enhance block last in signal chain prevents the enhance block from being amplified if placed before the amp. This makes it much easier to dial out any overdrive or distortion! My single path is much clearer/smoother sounding now. Thank you so much for your suggestion, and yes, putting the reverb and delay in parallel does improve the tone as well. Much obliged!

EDIT: Almost forgot to check the line 2 input with the VOL/PAN on. Back again soon...

Yup, just confirmed. The VOL/PAN pedal boosts the piezo channel big-time. Needed to balance the MIX / PIEZO levels. INPUT 1 MIX is still quieter when the HBII's blend knob is rolled off, but with just a touch of blend, both MIX & PIEZO increase in volume. Blend knob all the way up = full piezo.

Not sure if the HBII's MIX output is designed to allow the magnetic pickups to dominate. It's clearly the piezo that has the title spot with the blend knob. Magnetic (read: MIX) volume knob (IN 1) doesn't produce equal volume based on the above schematic. Boosting IN 1 boosts both MIX & PIEZO.

Suggestions on how to balance MIX & PIEZO with both the HBII & FM3?

EDIT 2: Also reduced the delay mix level to 30% for less noticeable delay repeats.

 

[InTooDeep]

Hmm I don't have a piezo equipped axe, maybe someone else will know how to answer the best way for that.

However, if in parallel you do want your mix at 100%, otherwise dry signal will come though and can do odd things like make the signal louder than intended. You can turn the level down to tone it down. I think -15dB would make for a pretty mild delay. 0dB will make the first repeat the same volume as the original signal.

 

[CandidPicker]

Hmm I don't have a piezo equipped axe, maybe someone else will know how to answer the best way for that.

However, if in parallel you do want your mix at 100%, otherwise dry signal will come though and can do odd things like make the signal louder than intended. You can turn the level down to tone it down. I think -15dB would make for a pretty mild delay. 0dB will make the first repeat the same volume as the original signal.

You're saying to set the delay and reverb mix levels at 100%, and dial back on the reverb and delay's output level? Anything to be done with feedback % levels?

How is it possible to increase the magnetic pickups level if the HBII combines both MAG & PIEZO together in HBII's MIX output (IN 1), when the PIEZO level (IN 2) seems dominant?

Paging @RickP to the courtesy phone, please...

 

[InTooDeep]

Feedback % relates to the number of repeats on the delay, so it doesn't necessarily need to be changed.

I'm not sure what you are sending out from the HBII, if you're sending a mix mag/piezo and piezo only to in2, you will likely get more piezo than you are looking for. The beauty of the 2 inputs is you can set your mix levels per scene in the fractal. I would only use the mixed output from the HBII if you were using an amp with 1 input.

 

[RickP]

You're saying to set the delay and reverb mix levels at 100%, and dial back on the reverb and delay's output level? Anything to be done with feedback % levels?

How is it possible to increase the magnetic pickups level if the HBII combines both MAG & PIEZO together in HBII's MIX output (IN 1), when the PIEZO level (IN 2) seems dominant?

Paging @RickP to the courtesy phone, please...

I have to preface my comment with the admission that I don’t have a piezo-equipped guitar with the separate outputs, so I don’t have a patch built for this exact thing. But what I’m saying works for anything with two signal paths. As @InTooDeep notes, the best way to deal with blending is to feed the electric signal to one path and the piezo to another using both outputs on the guitar and two cables, which you appear to be doing. If so, you should be able to balance them via the Input block for each path.

Again, having to think a new way, the Inputs are numbered 1 to 4, but they can actually be getting their signal from any of the physical inputs, USB, whatever. So you might need to make sure that input 2 isn’t getting it’s signal echoed from input 1 or somewhere else unexpected. That’s in the I/O menu, IIRC, I don’t have my Axe Fx here… you might be able to see it in the editor.

 

[CandidPicker]

I have to preface my comment with the admission that I don’t have a piezo-equipped guitar with the separate outputs, so I don’t have a patch built for this exact thing. But what I’m saying works for anything with two signal paths. As @InTooDeep notes, the best way to deal with blending is to feed the electric signal to one path and the piezo to another using both outputs on the guitar and two cables, which you appear to be doing. If so, you should be able to balance them via the Input block for each path.

Again, having to think a new way, the Inputs are numbered 1 to 4, but they can actually be getting their signal from any of the physical inputs, USB, whatever. So you might need to make sure that input 2 isn’t getting it’s signal echoed from input 1 or somewhere else unexpected. That’s in the I/O menu, IIRC, I don’t have my Axe Fx here… you might be able to see it in the editor.

I just discovered that my SE HBII Piezo does not sport a MAG/PIEZO & PIEZO output, just a MIX/PIEZO & MAG output. That precludes use of the 2 line inputs for the FM3. Or, allows use of only the MAG output and not connecting the MIX/PIEZO. The MIX/PIEZO output overrides the MAG output when using the FM3 with 2 inputs.

With that in mind, the following MIX/PIEZO preset was created to reflect the single input (IN 1) of utilizing either the MIX/PIEZO or MAG outputs, but not both. This reflects the use of either MIX/PIEZO output or MAG output. There is no tangible benefit to utilizing both SE HBII Piezo outputs, not at least with the FM3.

Apparently, the volume balance is found within the SE HBII Piezo's volume and blend knobs when connected to the MIX/PIEZO output, not within the FM3's IN 1 / IN 2.

 

[CandidPicker]

Feedback % relates to the number of repeats on the delay, so it doesn't necessarily need to be changed.

I'm not sure what you are sending out from the HBII, if you're sending a mix mag/piezo and piezo only to in2, you will likely get more piezo than you are looking for. The beauty of the 2 inputs is you can set your mix levels per scene in the fractal. I would only use the mixed output from the HBII if you were using an amp with 1 input.

Yeah, apparently I didn't read the output jacks of the HBII Piezo too well. They're labelled MIX/PIEZO & MAG. The MIX/PIEZO overrides use of the MAG output when both are connected to the FM3. The MAG output behaves the same way a standard guitar output might.

It is possible to connect either the MIX/PIEZO or the MAG, just not together with the FM3. For that reason alone, I've built a preset with 3 scenes that utilize the MIX/PIEZO jack, or could be used solely with the MAG jack as well.

The volume balance is found in the SE HBII Piezo's knobs. The MIX/PIEZO jack uses the volume, tone and blend knobs, the MAG jack solely the volume & tone knobs.

 

[InTooDeep]

From PRS website: "Players can plug into the “Mix/Piezo” jack and use the individual volume controls to blend the 58/15 “S” pickups with the piezo’s acoustic tones. Alternatively, players can plug into the jacks separately, so the guitar can run magnetic pickups into an amp and run the piezo through an acoustic amp or DI into the soundboard. When using the magnetic output jack in isolation, the piezo battery is bypassed completely, acting as a failsafe (in this scenario, the magnetic pickups still work even if the piezo battery has run out of juice). This is the most versatile SE instrument in the Series nearly twenty-year history."

I would think you want to use both jacks with the mix/piezo blend set to 100% piezo.

But you are saying in your guitar that the MAG output doesn't function when the mix/piezo is plugged in?

 

[Moondog Wily]

I hate you people! Reading your sh!t is giving me painful G.A.S. for some Fractal gear! Other than price, any reason why I should consider and FM3 over an Axe III with a controller? Best I can tell in my limited reading is, Axe will have more processing power and more libraries. Please let me know if there is something I have missed.

Thanks for taking me to the edge of the cliff so I can see my empty bank account! I will come back and jump once the water rises!!!

Happy fractal's!
MW

 

[InTooDeep]

Yeah AXE III has roughly 4x the processing power, allows you to do 2 amp models at the same time, more cab blocks at the same time, more simultaneous reverbs, has a tone match block, has a spectrum analyzer block and other things as well. It can also do gapless switching in some instances where the FM3 can't due to only 1 amp block. FM3 is just less than half the price, and way more compact. I would enjoy the extra AXE FX features, but it isn't worth the price increase and form factor inconvenience in my use case.

You also have to consider how you will hear it as well, good studio monitors, a PA, Power amp/cab, or FRFR cab are really important too.

 

[Moondog Wily]

Yeah AXE III has roughly 4x the processing power, allows you to do 2 amp models at the same time, more cab blocks at the same time, more simultaneous reverbs, has a tone match block, has a spectrum analyzer block and other things as well. It can also do gapless switching in some instances where the FM3 can't due to only 1 amp block. FM3 is just less than half the price, and way more compact. I would enjoy the extra AXE FX features, but it isn't worth the price increase and form factor inconvenience in my use case.

You also have to consider how you will hear it as well, good studio monitors, a PA, Power amp/cab, or FRFR cab are really important too.

Thanks for the feedback/knowledge share! Thinking I would pair it with a Headrush FRFR or two. Initially I would pump it through my JBL Professional IRX series Powered 8" and if not happy with that, grab some Headrush(s)!

 

[CandidPicker]

From PRS website: "Players can plug into the “Mix/Piezo” jack and use the individual volume controls to blend the 58/15 “S” pickups with the piezo’s acoustic tones. Alternatively, players can plug into the jacks separately, so the guitar can run magnetic pickups into an amp and run the piezo through an acoustic amp or DI into the soundboard. When using the magnetic output jack in isolation, the piezo battery is bypassed completely, acting as a failsafe (in this scenario, the magnetic pickups still work even if the piezo battery has run out of juice). This is the most versatile SE instrument in the Series nearly twenty-year history."

I would think you want to use both jacks with the mix/piezo blend set to 100% piezo.

But you are saying in your guitar that the MAG output doesn't function when the mix/piezo is plugged in?

Apparently, with the FM3 and the SE HBII Piezo, the MIX/PIEZO overpowers the MAG output when parallel inputted. The reason for this is because the SE HBII Piezo's volume and blend knobs read only the MIX/PIEZO jack, and assign the volume and blend knobs to that jack.

If you've got the guitar plugged into both jacks, the volume is assigned solely to magnetic, but piezo is assigned to the blend knob and is much louder than the magnetic pickups. The piezo blend knob acts as a volume knob and essentially overpowers the magnetic volume. I've tried tweaking each of my paralleled I/O and amp settings so as to try to obtain a balanced MIX/PIEZO & MAG volume level. No dice. I even discovered I had my guitar output jacks reversed when connected to the FM3. Nada, bupkis. The MIX/PIEZO dominates over the MAG output.

This is to say that it is this way with the Fractal FM3. YMMV with separate tube and acoustic or PA gear.

The workaround for my needs would be to simply plug into the MIX/PIEZO, use the volume, tone & blend knobs to taste, and relegate the MAG output for gigs where I'd need only a humbucker-only HBII-style guitar.

 

[CandidPicker]

I hate you people! Reading your sh!t is giving me painful G.A.S. for some Fractal gear! Other than price, any reason why I should consider and FM3 over an Axe III with a controller? Best I can tell in my limited reading is, Axe will have more processing power and more libraries. Please let me know if there is something I have missed.

Thanks for taking me to the edge of the cliff so I can see my empty bank account! I will come back and jump once the water rises!!!

Happy fractal's!
MW

MDW,

TBH, Fractal is not for the plug 'n play or "easy dial up" crowd. Study of Leon Todd's G66 video series will begin to help you, but there is so much to learn with this unit, it's almost frustrating and difficult to use. I'll be honest, it's been about 12 days since mine arrived and I'm only beginning to appreciate the versatility and value of this unit. Many others have said that it takes quite a while before they acclimate to the FM3 or Axe FX III. Your computer can be of great benefit when you use the FM3 Edit or Axe Edit software to dial in your settings. In fact, that's how I learned to work with the FM3...viewing instructional videos and dialing in various amp/cab/effects blocks.

The FM3 is an all-in-one device with 3 footswitches for portability. If you must, consider the FM3 and an FC6 controller for easier footswitch control. (I plan on upgrading my FM3 with an FC6 soon as I learn the basics of building presets, scenes, and channels, and gain a sense of confidence with the unit. Currently, I'm not all that sure about using the unit as a standalone device.)

Leon Todd's YT G66 videos are vital towards obtaining quality presets. View LT's YT "Channels & Scenes - FM3 Basics" video for more info.

Eventually, with their Cygnus software upgrade, both the FM3 and Axe FX III will share the same libraries once Fractal releases their final Cygnus version that is no longer in the beta stage. Currently Cygnus has gone through 5 beta versions, some of which are better than others; most still contain software bugs that need repair. The Axe has more processing power, yes, but is rack mount, less portable and also requires a separate FC6 or FC12 footswitch controller.

By comparison, the FM3 has a smaller footprint, and if used with an FC6, might be all you'd need for practice or gigs. (Don't forget the stereo powered XLR-connected speakers...)

in conclusion, I must say that both the FM3 and Axe FX II will test your ability to think clearly, your patience, and your own sense of peaceful-mindedness. After you've struggled a little with the unit, a sense of calm will take its place, and you'll feel more confident once the initial stage of WTF subsides.

 

[CandidPicker]

Thanks for the feedback/knowledge share! Thinking I would pair it with a Headrush FRFR or two. Initially I would pump it through my JBL Professional IRX series Powered 8" and if not happy with that, grab some Headrush(s)!

MDW,

If I may, I use 2 HeadRush FRFR108s on speaker stands either side of my computer workstation as my music workstation; my FM3 sits over to one side. The FM3 through the FRFR108s is plenty loud for any practice or small club application. If necessary, there are 2 sets of outputs, one set XLR, the other ¼".

From personal experience, stereo FRFRs are awesome and will do the FM3's modulation effects justice. Nothing like stereo delays pinging either side of your FRFRs...