Experience = NAD?

[FenianEMT]

TL;DR: I'd appreciate any input on my choice between four amps (bold below). I do plan to try them all if possible.

I'm attending PRS Experience for the first time this year, I'm about to get a pretty nice tax refund, and I've been thinking about getting an amp worthy of my guitars for quite a while. This all adds up to me buying a new amp real soon now, and I thought I'd seek some advice from the brilliant forum members here.

So, to start with, my musical interests are fairly broad, but don't extend too deeply into the metal/hard rock realm. I'm not a great player yet, but I'm improving pretty rapidly. Lately I've been working on blues playing, which I enjoy. I don't currently gig, so unless that changes in the future (which isn't out of the question), the amp will be used mostly for practice in my city row house where volume may be somewhat limited in order to not infuriate the neighbors.

I know the general advice is to try everything I can (preferably with my guitars), and buy what makes me most happy. I intend to do that to the extent possible. My hope is to try out any non-PRS amps that make the list before Experience, and then if none of them blow me away to the point that I can't resist buying immediately, try the PRS amps at Experience. My basic criteria are all-tube, foot switchable 2-channel (clean and gain), effects loop, and versatility to cover a wide range of styles. I prefer a combo amp, but would consider a head/cab if there is good reason. I'm hoping to buy something that I'll be keeping and playing through for many years. So here are the amps I'm considering:

Mesa/Boogie Mark Five:35 - For quite a while this was the front runner due to versatility, stellar reviews, and Mesa's reputation. It's fallen out of the lead, though, in large part due to how happy folks here seem to be with the simplicity/ease of use of the modern PRS amps (see below). I do like to tinker/tweak things, which you can obviously do a huge amount of with a Mark amp, but especially given that I'm not exactly a tone expert at this point anyway, that ability might just end up giving me analysis paralysis with an amp.

Mesa/Boogie Recto-Verb 25 - This one seems to get all kinds of rave reviews, and would be a less expensive, more user-friendly Mesa alternative to the Mark Five:35.

PRS Archon - Given how much everybody seems to love this amp, it had to be on the list. I'm a little concerned about versatility given that it's billed as an extremely high-gain amp. On the other hand, it seems like I've seen reports of people using Archons for all sorts of different styles, so maybe my concern there is a bit misplaced?

PRS Two Channel Custom - This is the current front runner. It seems like it might be a little more versatile for my purposes than an Archon, while still having all that PRS awesomeness. My hope is that has all the quality and ease of use that people rave about in the Archon coupled with a bit more versatility for low-medium gain applications.

So those are the ones I'm looking seriously at right now. I haven't played through any of them (except an Archon 50 that I briefly tested out my Vela on before I bought it) or even heard them in person yet, but I figure I can drive out to Frederick (only Mesa dealer in Maryland) one of the next few weekends to try the Mesas, and then hopefully try (and likely buy) PRS amps at Experience. So here are the questions that I'm hoping you all can help me to answer:

• Is there anything else that should absolutely be on this list?
• Should I be concerned that PRS Two Channel Customs seem to be pretty thin on the ground right now (Sweetwater doesn't have any, and Reverb doesn't have many that don't seem to have been on a shelf for a while)?
• Should I be considering the 50-watt versions of the PRS amps, or only the 20/25-watt ones? Given my use plans, lower power seems like it makes sense, but Les seems to make some very strong arguments in favor of higher wattage.
• Am I missing any key information or concerns?
• Am I just completely off my rocker with any or all of this?

I'm definitely the kind of person who stresses about trying to have all the information and make the perfect choice for this sort of thing, but I also know myself well enough that I know I'll be GASing (AASing?) for something else new almost as soon as I buy the amp.

Thanks for reading this far! I look forward to the opinions!

 

[elvis]

Based on your musical preferences, I would drop all of the Mesa amps you have listed and the Archon from the list, and add Electradyne (which I think you would love), Blue Angel and Shiva. And maybe DG30. Probably one of the lower-gain PRS amps will win in the end based on reviews I've read here, but those are also great for low to mid gain and have great cleans.

 

[FenianEMT]

Thanks for the response, elvis! I probably should have included preferences for new (which makes the Electra Dyne and Blue Angel more difficult) and ideally under $2k (though I am at least somewhat flexible on this). The Shiva is more expensive, but it does sound pretty fantastic in the YouTube videos I checked out. Maybe I'll see if I can find one nearby to try out.

 

[FenianEMT]

Wow...I think you may be right about me loving the Electra Dyne, though. I'll have to see whether there are any nearby that I could try out. Do you think the single set of controls for all "channels" would be limiting?

 

[Chuckblues]

How about an HXDA 30 ? That's an amp I would love to have !

 

[FenianEMT]

The big sticking points for me on the HXDA 30 and DG30 are price (ouch!) and single channel. I certainly don't have anything against trying them at Experience, but unless somebody's going to offer me an insane deal, I'm not sure whether I'm quite that flexible on price.

 

[dsenoj]

The HXDA (either 30 or 50) and the DG30 are great amps but they're considerably more expensive that the amps in your list.

 

[László]

Based on what you're saying and the price point, I'd go with the 2 Channel 50. It's a beautiful sounding amp, has a modern sensibility without being too high gain, and has really great cleans.

A big part of me wishes I'd gotten one instead of my Lone Star 100, simply because as much as I like Mesas, I like what the 2CH50 does a bit more. As you might know from my earlier posts, my two main amps are the HXDA and DG30, so there may be some bias toward the PRS warmth of tone.

This isn't to say I don't like the Lone Star. It does a lot of things well. But I think the PRS amp has an awful lot going for it in sweetness of tone that the LS just can't accomplish.

You might wonder why I added a Lone Star, and the reason is that I had a project coming in that I thought I needed the Mesa sound for. But the project got cancelled. Fortunately, my son tours with a Lone Star, so now I have something for him to play when he comes into town.

I'm not much of a fan of the Shiva's clean tones; this based on having one in my studio for a while. Not my thing, although when my son was working with 30 Seconds to Mars, the guitar player Tomo used one quite a bit on the record they were cutting, and it sounded very good in his hands.

I had a Blue Angel, and it doesn't hold up to the 2Ch50; it's also been out of production for years. I've only heard the Electradyne in clips, and really like it, however Mesa stopped making them.

 

[elvis]

The Electradyne is a wonderful amp. Fantastic tone and feel. And at the going rate for a used one, I wouldn't get too hung up on new.

I'm not much of a fan of the Shiva's clean tones; this based on having one in my studio for a while. Not my thing, although when my son was working with 30 Seconds to Mars, the guitar player Tomo used one quite a bit on the record they were cutting, and it sounded very good in his hands.

I'm surprised by this. It's generally lauded for the cleans, and I really like mine. To each his own...

 

[Dusty Chalk]

You really can't go wrong with either Mesa/Boogie nor PRS. Good luck!

JP-2C is pretty freakin' versatile, but is out of your price range (starts at 2.5K). I'm GASsing for one myself.

 

[elvis]

Wow...I think you may be right about me loving the Electra Dyne, though. I'll have to see whether there are any nearby that I could try out. Do you think the single set of controls for all "channels" would be limiting?

Yes, it is limiting. Nonetheless, I have a setting that works well for me for all 3 channels. You will definitely want the latest version with clean trim and gain trim. Those give a bit of additional independence to the channels.

 

[László]

I'm surprised by this. It's generally lauded for the cleans, and I really like mine. To each his own...

At the time I had a Two-Rock Onyx Signature, a Bad Cat Hot Cat, and a Bogner Metroplis. I loved the cleans on all three. Really dug them. I had other amps as well for overdriven sounds.

The Shiva's cleans seemed more compressed to me. I had a Mesa Tremoverb also at the time, and the Shiva cleans seemed similar to it. Could have simply been that amp?

I did keep the Shiva size 212 open back cab, though! It sounded great with the Metropolis.

On the other hand, my son got hold of a Two-Rock and a Shiva for the first 30 Seconds to Mars record he worked on, that was produced by Flood - one of the world's great producers - and they chose the Shiva for that record. So my opinion should be taken more as a personal preference than a criticism! I'm just another faceless internet dude with random opinions!

 

[elvis]

So my opinion should be taken more as a personal preference than a criticism! I'm just another faceless internet dude with random opinions!

I'm not trying to devalue your opinion. I was just surprised. It may well be that, good as a Shiva is, your other amps are better. Also, I like a little compression in my cleans.

 

[rugerpc]

Also, I like a little compression in my cleans.

I am absolutely not dissing you, bro. This sentence just brought up a few academic questions for me.

Once we add effects, is it clean any more?
What effects can be added to a clean signal and the signal still be considered clean?
At what point does a signal change from clean to dirty?

 

[László]

It may well be that, good as a Shiva is, your other amps are better. Also, I like a little compression in my cleans.

I think probably there is no such thing as "better." It's a question of what works for the individual player.

Thankfully, these days we have tons of choices!

Back in the day, when you wanted an amp the salesman would say, "The Fenders are over here, the Voxes are over there, the Marshalls are in that corner, and we also have some Ampegs in the back by the bathroom." And those were your choices.

The odd thing is that because we've all heard the classic records from that time forward, those basic tones are still your choices! They're just being massaged in various ways by different makers.

You might say, "Yeah? Well what about the Magnatones, Kustoms, Supros, etc?"

When I was a kid in the 60s I hung out at various music stores, and Detroit had a really thriving music scene. I honestly never saw a store with Magnatones, Customs, Supros, or anything else for sale other than the Big Four. I always wonder where on earth people found them new!

 

[SteelHorse]

Have you considered looking at something like the Marshall DSL series as they have a really good price point? They really need a speaker swap as it seems the stock speaker is its weak link. I put a V-type in my DSL40C and it has become a killer sounding amp to me, but remember that is to me. Or the new Fender Bassbreakers as they have been getting really good reviews. Keep in mind tube amps can be loud and sometimes need volume to add that fullness to shed that fizzy sound.

If you have not been around a lot of amps get yourself out to stores and play them. They are very personal and you will have fun doing it.

 

[elvis]

I am absolutely not dissing you, bro. This sentence just brought up a few academic questions for me.

Once we add effects, is it clean any more?
What effects can be added to a clean signal and the signal still be considered clean?
At what point does a signal change from clean to dirty?

Fair question. In my opinion, clean is in the ear of the beholder. Given that 0.001% THD is not possible for guitar, really we only get clean-ish tone to begin with. If I bump that up in volume on stage and the amp clips a little bit, I think most people would still consider it "clean", as opposed to "I used a drive pedal" or "I used the drive channel". Jimmy Page used his guitar volume live to get "clean". The clean parts of Stairway to Heaven and Rain Song were actually pretty broken up live. I still consider that clean, though. I think there is a generally agreeable "edge of breakup" that most people would recognize. To me, more than that is dirty, less is clean.

In other words, adding a few harmonics for more presence or character is still clean.

As for compression, you can use a compressor and a REALLY clean channel and stay clean, but kill off dynamics. I think that is still clean. Or you can use it to boost the channel to edge of breakup or beyond. Then...

The same question applies to EQ, including the EQ in the guitar and amp. If I turn up the mids, is it still "clean". I think so. Chorus, delay, reverb, etc? I think that's clean. Again, for me, clean is more "not really dirty", and below that limit, anything goes.

I think that Eric Johnson might argue that anything other than guitar -> amp is not clean. His definition I think is more about preserving dynamics. In which case, on my cleanest setting, I'm not clean.

 

[László]

Once we add effects, is it clean any more?

Sure! The amp can be clean, and the signal going to the amp can be whatever it is.

What effects can be added to a clean signal and the signal still be considered clean?

This is interesting. If you have a high fidelity amp and speakers in your living room, and there's no audible distortion in your components, but you play some very distorted guitar recordings, is your gear reproducing the signal cleanly? Of course it is! The signal is distorted, but if the amp and speakers aren't adding additional distortion, the amp and speakers are playing clean, at least the way I figure it.

At what point does a signal change from clean to dirty?

When the amp affects the sine wave and starts clipping the waveform, it's dirty.

Note: I just made up all these rules but they do make sense to me!

 

[HANGAR18]

PRS Archon - Given how much everybody seems to love this amp, it had to be on the list. I'm a little concerned about versatility given that it's billed as an extremely high-gain amp. On the other hand, it seems like I've seen reports of people using Archons for all sorts of different styles, so maybe my concern there is a bit misplaced?

My Archon 100w is my favorite. Note, the depth knob is your friend.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

I am absolutely not dissing you, bro. This sentence just brought up a few academic questions for me.

Once we add effects, is it clean any more?
What effects can be added to a clean signal and the signal still be considered clean?
At what point does a signal change from clean to dirty?

IMHO, the only thing that makes a signal not be "clean" is "dirt" -- fuzz, distortion, bitcrusher, clipping. Reverb, chorus, etc. don't count. Compression is a little bit of a special case because if you compress enough, you will get clipping, but IMHO as long as it remains in smooth territory, I will call it clean.

This even covers the borderline case where the beginning of the note is dirty, but the rest is clean -- it's mostly clean.

I'm totally ignoring Les' post because he answered a different question, 'amp', vs. 'signal'.