Electric Cars

[Wyzard]

In europe at least, the kernel of a good idea has foisted change upon us too soon.

Genuine question: when would you prefer them to have started?


What I'm reporting on currently: vineyards and the traditional styles of wine produced on every continent are in serious trouble.

Drought - or its corollary, excessive rain, along with the many diseases this encourages; much milder winters in many world-renowned regions leading to earlier budding, followed by late frosts/hail and concomitant massive crop losses; weather instability throughout the growing season, leading to uncertain ripening, and chaotically-timed harvesting; pests encouraged by weakened vines' defences; plain old excessive heat, causing the vines to effectively "shut down" further ripening; sunburn of the grapes themselves....... the list goes on and on.

 

[24Fretter]

Your premise is flawed.

Electric cars are worse for the environment than gas powered. Their carbon footprint is much larger. The batteries are toxic hasmat with an extremely long half life. The batteries are also full of metals that are strip mined in countries with little or no environmental controls.

 

[Wyzard]

Your premise....

Whose premise?

 

[Ruffone]

And what about in the future when you and I are both dead?

Your thinking is rather extreme in nature. You’re imagining a world that simply won’t come to be—a world in which everything changes except for a single component of your choosing. That is, to put it mildly, unrealistic. Imagine how our world would be if in 1900 some worry-wart convinced everyone that there’d never be enough gasoline to go around, so we might as well keep horses.

Everything changes. I’m happy to take advantage of that in ways that benefit me. If you don’t want to enjoy the benefits of change, then don’t. Matters not to me.

I’m not thinking of anything extreme. This is the way our government is pushing us and according to the state of Cali this dystopian dream as you called it will happen in their state some time between 2030 - 2035.

And what single component did I choose that won’t change??

And I have nothing against change. But I am a realist and I have enough brains to realize this crazy nonsense that they are pushing will never work as these blinds fools believe it will.

 

[RC Mike]

I’m not thinking of anything extreme. This is the way our government is pushing us and according to the state of Cali this dystopian dream as you called it will happen in their state some time between 2030 - 2035.

And what single component did I choose that won’t change??

And I have nothing against change. But I am a realist and I have enough brains to realize this crazy nonsense that they are pushing will never work as these blinds fools believe it will.

Please. You posted about your fears of there not being enough electricity to go around. As though anything happens in isolation. I don’t live in California, do you? It’s their state to run. You’ll still be able to buy new cars that have a gas tank there in 2035, too. The sky isn’t falling and you’re actually going to be ok.

 

[Ruffone]

To be clear, I am trying to avoid politics as well and offer this only as an informed part of the EV ecosystem. I have been driving EVs for a year and work in the EV industry for ~9 yrs. From first hand experience, I can say with 100% confidence charging EVs will have ZERO impact on the US electrical infrastructure. The power consumption is not large nor impactful at scale relative to our normal electrical consumption. At full adoption, EVs would represent less than 5% of electrical usage in the US. Considering we are at less than 10% adoption today and it will take another 10-20 yrs to get even above 50% adoption, there is no real chance of even peaking at 5% electrical consumption anytime soon.

Now your other points about additional transportation are correct, but only in that there will be other vehicles charging not in that they will cripple our electrical grid. Solar powered stationary storage devices are perfectly suited for this use case and are in service at many remote industrial facilities today.

My point is not to say that EVs are perfect as I do not believe that. There are real issues with how legacy automotive companies are trying to build EVs and the general public's lack of understanding of the platform. If there is a point to really disagree with EVs it would be on the near-term environmental impact of mining minerals, rather than US electrical grid impact. Please note there ware many other countries (with similar size or larger populations) who are already well beyond the US's EV adoption and we have not seen any major impact on their distribution networks.

So what issues do the legacy automotive companies have with building EVs? And what do you mean the general public doesn’t understand the platform? What’s hard to understand about EVs?

I don’t drive an electric car and I’ve been working in the energy savings field doing ESCO work for about 17 years now. And that’s non-sense thinking that adding all of the electric vehicles to the electrical grid will have zero impact. An electrical grid is designed to handle a certain load, from where it leaves the power station through each transformer and to the end user. Most of the old existing infrastructure was never setup to handle all the modern energy draw that is being asked of it, why do you think Cali has brown outs and they are constantly being asked to reduce their a/c usage.

 

[Ruffone]

Which "objective reality" are you referring to?

The one that states it’s a pipe dream thinking going all EV has less of an impact on our environment than modern gas vehicles do. And the one that knows that we’ll never be able to truly leave our reliance on petroleum, the world is just saturated with petroleum based products.

 

[Ruffone]

Please. You posted about your fears of there not being enough electricity to go around. As though anything happens in isolation. I don’t live in California, do you? It’s their state to run. You’ll still be able to buy new cars that have a gas tank there in 2035, too. The sky isn’t falling and you’re actually going to be ok.

This is definitely not a fear of mine. I posted that the grid will be taxed, it’s a fact and that’s all I stated. I enjoy my life, I don’t sweat the little stuff. I merely added facts to a discussion in a post.

 

[RC Mike]

This is definitely not a fear of mine. I posted that the grid will be taxed, it’s a fact and that’s all I stated. I enjoy my life, I don’t sweat the little stuff. I merely added facts to a discussion in a post.

That’s a lot less passionate and sky-is-falling than you were earlier today. You tossed out that ”2030-35” thing without a whole lot of facts, though.

Too many people get emotional about this without any real reason. They think something—something—will somehow be done to them. The fear that gets surfaced is quite powerful. That’s why certain groups keep pushing the FUD.

 

[Ruffone]

That’s a lot less passionate and sky-is-falling than you were earlier today. You tossed out that ”2030-35” thing without a whole lot of facts, though.

Too many people get emotional about this without any real reason. They think something—something—will somehow be done to them. The fear that gets surfaced is quite powerful. That’s why certain groups keep pushing the FUD.

Well for one, there was no passion or sky is falling tone in my comment. There was no fear or concern / worry that the earth is going to end. The earth will be around way past the lives of anyone alive today. And it’s going to go through many more hot spells and cold spells just like it has since it was formed.

See, that’s the problem with emails / texts / social media, people have a tendency to read into things with their own biases and perceptions. If you take people’s post for what they are and not add any of your own perceptions you will live a lot happier life.

 

[Wyzard]

As a further clarification: my son is an engineer at a car design consultancy, one that has had a hand in some very well-known supercars.

He and his team are designing platforms for EVs right now, and all share their misgivings about the current state of the art. He's stated that the vehicles being made now will be superseded, and this is merely a way-station on the path to what we'll all end up driving.

FUD is, however, not going to get us there: so best be less exciteable, if you're not going to be an active participant in the solution IMO.

 

[Wyzard]

And the one that knows that we’ll never be able to truly leave our reliance on petroleum, the world is just saturated with petroleum based products.

Well, we eventually escaped a couple of millenia of having to walk through pervasive horse poop.

I expect there'll be new ways to part people from their money, in pursuit of mobility (stylish, super-fast, economical, or otherwise). To expect anything else would seem to me to be the opposite of "realism".

 

[LunarRock]

You are correct. Taxation revenue needs to come in to a treasury regardless. In the UK they shifting from pure emissions to taxed on value of the car. In norway they phased out toll free roads as more electric cars came into market. That country is unique in that they have electric grid primarily from hydro, but their unit cost is actually high compared to uk, political decision.

The uk moved from 2030 back to 2035 as what I posted earlier, very poor charging infrastructure. But merc has changed product plans to keep more lines of ice/hybrids rather than go full electric. These cars do cost more, and so far are only really financially viable if you get a tax break for it. The residuals are also not good, which is another driver. If they tariff charge Chinese imports like byd, that will only keep the average price higher, and so slow market uptake of electric cars.

Personally I reckon for our family electric car will be 2 cars ahead, a decade

 

[Alessandro]

Genuine question: when would you prefer them to have started?


What I'm reporting on currently: vineyards and the traditional styles of wine produced on every continent are in serious trouble.

Drought - or its corollary, excessive rain, along with the many diseases this encourages; much milder winters in many world-renowned regions leading to earlier budding, followed by late frosts/hail and concomitant massive crop losses; weather instability throughout the growing season, leading to uncertain ripening, and chaotically-timed harvesting; pests encouraged by weakened vines' defences; plain old excessive heat, causing the vines to effectively "shut down" further ripening; sunburn of the grapes themselves....... the list goes on and on.

So the crops are drying up is your argument? I just read an article on how the world is 20% greener today than it was 20 years ago. This doesn’t lend to the idea that our crops are in danger. In fact it’s quite the opposite. More carbon dioxide would only be better for plant life and planet earth. Humans will adapt as we have all through time. Sounds like someone is more worried about adapting to a gap in his wine collection than poor people getting to heat their homes. Maybe the wineries will need to relocate? Boohoo. Humans have followed the climate our whole existence and it will never be the other way around. Get over it.

In Canada the only thing increasing the cost of food is carbon taxes and big government. The only thing hurting wine is government taxes that take a $12 bottle up to $19.

 

[Wyzard]

So the crops are drying up is your argument? I just read an article on how the world is 20% greener today than it was 20 years ago. This doesn’t lend to the idea that our crops are in danger. In fact it’s quite the opposite. More carbon dioxide would only be better for plant life and planet earth. Humans will adapt as we have all through time. Sounds like someone is more worried about adapting to a gap in his wine collection than poor people getting to heat their homes. Maybe the wineries will need to relocate? Boohoo. Humans have followed the climate our whole existence and it will never be the other way around. Get over it.

In Canada the only thing increasing the cost of food is carbon taxes and big government. The only thing hurting wine is government taxes that take a $12 bottle up to $19.

Virtually everything you've said is abject nonsense. And: "So the crops are drying up is your argument?" It's like reading comprehension, but without the comprehension.

As for Canada, it's going to find itself in a better position than formerly, but almost everywhere in the south of the US is going to end up in the sh*tter. Southern Europe too.

Are you aware how much food California produces, and what's going on with its water supply? Ditto Southern Europe?

 

[Alessandro]

Virtually everything you've said is abject nonsense. And: "So the crops are drying up" is your argument? It's like reading comprehension, but without the comprehension.

As for Canada, it's going to find itself in a better position than formerly, but almost everywhere in the south of the US is going to end up in the sh*tter. Southern Europe too.

Are you aware how much food California produces, and what's going on with its water supply? Ditto Southern Europe?

When facts get in the way call them nonsense and deny they exist without offering any proof. I can pull up dozens of articles confirming the earth is greening as a result of higher co2 levels. It’s science. Sorry you don’t believe the science. When dinosaurs roamed the earth there was no ice on land and plants thrived in ways that can’t compare to modern times. Humans adapt. Plants thrive. There is nothing wrong with more co2 if you like to see humans thrive. It’s those pesky authoritarians that want to control every move you make that are the real issue humanity needs to focus on. Those against liberty are against humanity. Full stop.

The lord giveth and the lord taketh away. If SoCal won’t fair well in the future it’s because it’s not suppose to and other areas will thrive because they are suppose to. Mind you the idea that SoCal is in danger is the biggest joke I’ve laughed at all day. That’s why they are giving out mortgages and insurance policies like never before when they know it’s all gonna be over in 15 years? That’s the kind of nonsense that makes religious people seem like rocket scientists.

 

[Wyzard]

Absolute bollox.



And "SoCal"? Once again, I said "California".

You can actually read, instead of just seeing one of your own brainf*rts, can't you?

 

[RC Mike]

“They”

 

[Bogner]

The lord giveth and the lord taketh away. That’s the kind of nonsense that makes religious people seem like rocket scientists.

These Two Sentences Did Make Me Chuckle.

 

[veinbuster]

There is more to crops than how green it is. Likewise, there is more to a good harvest than how dry it is.

For example, it is extremely green around me, but much of that is things that we don’t want. We had more rain in July than any month ever recorded, and about triple a normal July. It makes crop management challenging. It’s true that if the pattern persisted for a number of years, we might grow different things. In the near term though, this level of shift in weather means less of some crops, which in turn makes for higher prices.

And, the huge excess of rain here invariably means somewhere else didn’t get enough rain. We have a huge store of fresh water, but not everywhere has an alternative to rain falling.

But all of this has a tenuous relationship with electric cars.