Effects Loop Help. When to use Input, Output, Send and Return

[Mokisan]

Hello,

I just got a PRS MT15. Love it. My previous rig involved a pretty large pedal board all running into the amp's input. Now, I want to use the effects loop, but I'm a bit confused on how to run multiple pedals into an effects loop. I know which pedals need to go into an effects loop and which need to go in front of the amp. It's the wiring that's getting me.

Okay. Let's say I have a pedal with input, output, send and return. I've seen people run the guitar into input and output to the amp, then send and return to the effects loop to the amp on the same pedal. I've seen people just run the guitar into input, output into the effects loop, and return to the next pedal. I would love to know which is best and why. Also, what to do if I have multiple pedals. Do I continue input and output through the multiple pedals but have send on the last pedal and return on the first pedal?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Tony M.]

Effects loop send goes to input of first pedal in the loop.
Output of last pedal in the loop goes to effects loop return.

Guitar >>>----> Tuner, Compressors, Octavers, Wahs, Dirt pedals >>>----> Front end of amplifier.

Effects loop send >>>----> Modulation (chorus, etc.), Delays, Reverbs >>>----> Effects loop return.

 

[Mozzi]

This is a decent illustration of an example of a general pedal order and use of the FX Loop.

The 'pre-amp' of the amplifier is what gives the Amp its characteristic sound and 'flavours' the tone. If you use the high gain channel, your modulation, delays and reverb are after the pre-amp gain if you use the FX loop. If you put them in front for example, the gain structure of the amp will impact the modulation, the delays and reverb. Its like putting these pedals in front of your Distortion which you may want to do for a certain sound but generally, you want your delays and reverb (at least) to be clean.

Its all about the signal path and the sound you want. Most people for example want a 'clean' reverb - not a reverb that's being distorted by gain. They want their high gain tone to have delays and don't want their delays being distorted by gain so if you want to use the Amps built in gain, you put these into the FX Loop.

The FX Loop is like splitting your Amp into two sections - the pre-amp which shapes the tone and the power amp which is where the sound is amplified. The FX loop is splitting the pre-amp and power amp. Because the pre-amp shapes the tone and has the gain stage, it makes sense to use the tone coming out of the pre-amp to add modulation, delay, reverb etc.

In the Diagram above, its still a Single path - Guitar > Tuner > Wah > Compressor > Fuzz/Distortion/Overdrive > Pre-Amp > EQ > Modulation > Delay > Reverb > Power Amp > Speaker - but because the Amp is one unit, the FX Loop allows you to essentially split the Pre and Power sections to add FX in between.

 

[Dirty_Boogie]

This is a decent illustration of an example of a general pedal order and use of the FX Loop.

The 'pre-amp' of the amplifier is what gives the Amp its characteristic sound and 'flavours' the tone. If you use the high gain channel, your modulation, delays and reverb are after the pre-amp gain if you use the FX loop. If you put them in front for example, the gain structure of the amp will impact the modulation, the delays and reverb. Its like putting these pedals in front of your Distortion which you may want to do for a certain sound but generally, you want your delays and reverb (at least) to be clean.

Its all about the signal path and the sound you want. Most people for example want a 'clean' reverb - not a reverb that's being distorted by gain. They want their high gain tone to have delays and don't want their delays being distorted by gain so if you want to use the Amps built in gain, you put these into the FX Loop.

The FX Loop is like splitting your Amp into two sections - the pre-amp which shapes the tone and the power amp which is where the sound is amplified. The FX loop is splitting the pre-amp and power amp. Because the pre-amp shapes the tone and has the gain stage, it makes sense to use the tone coming out of the pre-amp to add modulation, delay, reverb etc.

In the Diagram above, its still a Single path - Guitar > Tuner > Wah > Compressor > Fuzz/Distortion/Overdrive > Pre-Amp > EQ > Modulation > Delay > Reverb > Power Amp > Speaker - but because the Amp is one unit, the FX Loop allows you to essentially split the Pre and Power sections to add FX in between.

But don’t be confused on how this illustration is drawn - it shows the effects loop’s Send going into the “Out” of the EQ pedal - the whole signal flow is backwards, until the final reverb pedal magically ( and correctly) has its “Out” jack go to the effects loop’s Return.

 

[Mozzi]

But don’t be confused on how this illustration is drawn - it shows the effects loop’s Send going into the “Out” of the EQ pedal - the whole signal flow is backwards, until the final reverb pedal magically ( and correctly) has its “Out” jack go to the effects loop’s Return.

There isn't an 'input and output' marked on the pedals and its a simplified diagram to show a typical path. The Black line is more representative of the signal path - not supposed to represent the cable. I can see why it maybe misleading though. If you want to be picky, the line 'into' both the Wah, Compressor, Delay and Reverb is more common to see a power cable and I don't know of many, if any Tuners, Wah's or Delays to have an output coming from the bottom of the units either so trying to match this diagram exactly wouldn't work...

To make it clearer, the diagram is trying to illustrate:

Guitar (out) -->-- (in) Tuner (out) -->-- (in) Wah (out) -->-- (in) Compressor (out) -->-- (in) Fuzz/Distortion/Overdrive (out) -->-- (in) Pre-Amp (FX Loop - Send) -->-- (in) EQ (out) -->-- (in) Modulation (out) -->-- (in) Delay (out) -->-- (in) Reverb (out) -->-- (FX Loop - Return) Power Amp ->- Speaker
where (in) refers to the cable being connected to the 'input' and (out) refers to the cable being connected to the 'output'
-->-- is the direction of the signal path
​

Anyway, hope that helps and clears up ANY confusion that simplified diagram may of caused...

 

[Stephen J.]

The way I read the question, you know what to do with the front end of the amp and the amp send and return. It sounds like one or more of your pedals has an effects loop in addition to the normal input and output. If so, you can ignore the pedal loop, or use it for a loop within a loop. Maybe it would help if you listed the pedals you are working with.

 

[Mokisan]

Thank you guys for the answers. It does make more sense to me now. Where I was getting confused at, the first pedal I watched a video on on how to setup a pedal board and effects loop involved a noise gate that should have been marked with an *. Stephen J, my hat to you. I did not realize I was starting with the wrong pedal to understand an effects loop.

I do have some follow up questions. Should I ever use a buffer pedal, such as JHS Little Black Buffer, in an effects loop? Should an EQ always been in a loop or is it a matter of taste?

And, here is my pedal board:

Guitar in to the TC electronic Polytune and out is the TC Noise Sentry. EQ was last pedal before the Noise Sentry.

Tips and suggestions welcome. Before, this all was run straight into my Fender Mustang 5 V2, which doesn't sound good anymore. Like it's lost all it's power.

 

[Mozzi]

Thank you guys for the answers. It does make more sense to me now. Where I was getting confused at, the first pedal I watched a video on on how to setup a pedal board and effects loop involved a noise gate that should have been marked with an *. Stephen J, my hat to you. I did not realize I was starting with the wrong pedal to understand an effects loop.

I do have some follow up questions. Should I ever use a buffer pedal, such as JHS Little Black Buffer, in an effects loop? Should an EQ always been in a loop or is it a matter of taste?

And, here is my pedal board:

Guitar in to the TC electronic Polytune and out is the TC Noise Sentry. EQ was last pedal before the Noise Sentry.

Tips and suggestions welcome. Before, this all was run straight into my Fender Mustang 5 V2, which doesn't sound good anymore. Like it's lost all it's power.

Its very unusual and perhaps unnecessary to put a buffer in the FX Loop and the EQ can go in anywhere you want it. The Diagram was more illustrative of what a 'typical' pedal layout with the FX Loop would probably look like.

What you have to do with building a pedal board is look at the signal chain - follow the path from the guitar. The signal from the guitar is 100% clean and each pedal in the order, changes it and sends a 'different' tone to the 'next' pedal in line.

In the example above, the Wah is the 'first' pedal to effect the sound so depending on whether its on or not will depend on what sound hits the next pedal and so on. Think about what sound comes in and then leaves. In the example above, a 'clean' signal from the guitar is hitting the Wah and then compressor and then distortion so the Wah will have a big impact on how the Distortion pedals react. That may well be the effect you are looking for but if you want to have the Distortion first, so the Wah affects a distorted sound, then you set your pedal board that way.

There is no right/wrong - not really. Its about creating the 'effects' you want and experimenting with the order. I personally prefer to have the Wah after the distortion - so a 'distorted' sound is hitting the Wah. The reason Delay and Reverb goes in the loop is so the delays and reverbs are not being affected by the pre-amp settings as they affect the signal before. In the example above, the delays will also be affected by the Reverb because its 'before' that pedal in the signal path...

 

[Tony M.]

One more thing I forgot to mention -
Even though a phase shifter is a modulation pedal
it is basically wah with an automatic sweep and can be
placed after a compressor and before any dirt pedals
with excellent results.

If this board were to be used with an effects loop,
the first 4 pedals would be in front of the amplifier
and the last 3 would be in the effects loop,
going right to left.

The patch cord between the Tumnus and the Corona
would be replaced with 2 longer cables.

The output of the Tumnus would go to the front of the amplifier.
The effects loop send would go to the input of the Corona and
the output of the HOF would go to the effects loop return.

 

[WorldOfJohnboy]

Mokisan, I have felt your pain... I have used my chain with my Fender Ultimate Chorus amp as shown in the diagram of post #3 for a while. My problem was that (even with an isolated PDU) I was getting a hum from my rig. Eliminated the guitar wiring, cables and my amp (checked all solder points on the board). So, I decided to take the plunge and get a Boss NS-2. When simply put in the front end after my distortion, it was vastly effective. However, I noticed there was a send and return on it. I searched high and low, YouTube was helpful to a degree, and I finally figured it out.

So, here's my chain as a result:
Guitar>Tuner>NS-2 Input>NS-2 Send>Wah>Whammy>Distortion>Boost/Drive>Compression>AMP.

Then, FX Send>NS-2 Return>Flanger>Delay>FX Return.

This has produced my desired sounds without flaw, and I have to say that in using the NS-2'S loop within my chain, my guitars have never sounded more crisp and clear, with or without distortion.

As I wrote this, I just realized that I have 4 types of distortions that I can use as standalone or together... Boss Metal Zone, Keeley D&M Drive (which has drive and boost, that can be used together or individually, and boost can go into drive or drive into boost), and then my Amp's gain channel. I'm going to have to experiment with using the different combos!

 

[DISTORT6]

Mokisan, I have felt your pain... I have used my chain with my Fender Ultimate Chorus amp as shown in the diagram of post #3 for a while. My problem was that (even with an isolated PDU) I was getting a hum from my rig. Eliminated the guitar wiring, cables and my amp (checked all solder points on the board). So, I decided to take the plunge and get a Boss NS-2. When simply put in the front end after my distortion, it was vastly effective. However, I noticed there was a send and return on it. I searched high and low, YouTube was helpful to a degree, and I finally figured it out.

So, here's my chain as a result:
Guitar>Tuner>NS-2 Input>NS-2 Send>Wah>Whammy>Distortion>Boost/Drive>Compression>AMP.

Then, FX Send>NS-2 Return>Flanger>Delay>FX Return.

This has produced my desired sounds without flaw, and I have to say that in using the NS-2'S loop within my chain, my guitars have never sounded more crisp and clear, with or without distortion.

As I wrote this, I just realized that I have 4 types of distortions that I can use as standalone or together... Boss Metal Zone, Keeley D&M Drive (which has drive and boost, that can be used together or individually, and boost can go into drive or drive into boost), and then my Amp's gain channel. I'm going to have to experiment with using the different combos!

Google < NS-2 4 cable > to get many useful diagrams for using the NS-2.

 

[3rdstone]

Once I got everything wired the way I wanted it I ran everything through this.
That way I only have to plug in 3 cables without thinking about it.
I have it all virtually idiot proof and color coded as well as on my amp inputs.
It also saves wear and tear on plugging everything in and out of the actual pedals constantly.
These are relatively cheap on Reverb. Usually around $50.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

I put something similar on my home made board.

In/Out for front of amp.
In/Out for FX loop.









This was inspired by @LSchefman s Schmidt Array board.

Plenty of acreage for additional FX.