Does wood type effect tone

I have posted this link in a similar thread, but think it might be worth reposting here with some key quotes below. For context, this review article discusses experiments demonstrating that violinists preferred modern violins to the priceless 17th/18th century Italian violins in the context of a double-blind, controlled study - https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1405851111

“Why is it that musicians and scientists reach different conclusions when considering the same data? This arises in part due to different ways of knowing things. Scientists know what they know through systematic observation of the external world, mediated by replicable experiments and objective measurement. Artists know what they know through emotional experience, subjectivity, and intuition. When they disagree, each appeals to his or her own internally stable and coherent system. Scientists embrace rationality; artists cite the ineffability of experience and the limits of scientific knowledge. However, it would be a mistake to say that scientists' way of knowing is superior. Scientists haven't written Messiah or The Rite of Spring.Artists' intuitions and the meandering, nonlinear path of inspiration yield results that could not have been gotten any other way.”

“Some musicians espouse decidedly nonscientific views, such as the existence of spirit guides (3) or the idea that certain musical instruments are superior to others based on their age and heritage, who built them, and who played them previously. So famous is one line of old violins that the word Stradivarius has entered the popular lexicon. Students and amateur musicians everywhere, at some point in their lives, have harbored the thought that if only they could get their hands on such a masterpiece instrument, they would sound like their musical heroes. However, Fritz et al. clearly demonstrate that these venerated older instruments are indistinguishable from well-made contemporary ones.
What's going on then? Why does the folk belief that old instruments sound better persist? A cognitive explanation is that this phenomenon represents the influence of top-down processing, that is, expectation-driven perception, as opposed to stimulus-driven perception.”

“In short, simply knowing that an instrument has a certain pedigree or history could activate expectations for its sound that cause neural circuits—even lower level sensory-perceptual ones—to behave differently than they would without that knowledge. We may really believe that they sound better, even if there is no acoustic difference in the distal world.”

“Because artists rely so heavily on their own experience, studies like this have historically fallen on deaf ears—“I know what I know because my senses tell me so” may be the refrain of those who are skeptical of scientific methods. An artist's knowledge comes from his or her own subjective impressions, influenced as they are by labels and expectations, and for many reasons, we want this to be so. Art is not meant to replicate science but to recontextualize the world for us, to show us new perspectives, and to communicate emotional propositions—all things that science is not as good at doing. Although this experiment is unlikely to change many musicians' minds, Fritz et al. accomplish a great deal by meeting artists on their own terms, by conducting a study with maximal ecological validity and a minimum of “laboratory-like” distractions. For those artists who are open-minded enough to allow the scientific method in, the findings are loud and clear and should put an end to speculation and rumor and the outrageously high prices charged for musical instruments that are, even to experts we now know, indistinguishable from their less expensive counterparts.”
I fully understand your argument, which exposes objective vs. subjective viewpoints, but I'm convinced that there's a middleground where both science and human experience align perfectly, and other times where they are at odds with each other.

It's true that nostalgia plays a big role in forming our opinions but anyone who sells you that the science is settled, is only looking to win an argument, and not trying to contribute to a real collective knowledge-base. How many times has someone's "gut feeling" been a scientific fact that hadn't been proven yet?
 
Thanks and I understand your point. The middle ground, in my view, is to test the gut feelings. What I like about the violin studies is that they were done properly by people with the correct expertise and peer reviewed in a reputable journal. In addition, the study was repeated twice (the second time addressed the criticism of the first study). It is difficult to find all of these factors together. Instead, we have YouTube videos, anecdotal evidence etc. I don't think conclusions of the studies are necessarily "facts" but the data undercuts the hypothesis - old Italian violins are preferred by players and listeners. Someone could perform other studies that point in a different direction - the method is self correcting when used properly. Ultimately, musicians should trust their own ears - whether biased by the visuals/stories or not. That is how creative people move the culture forward.
 
Here's my 2p worth, with the only true example I can give.

Once upon a time, I owned two Fender MIM Richie Sambora Stratocasters. Same spec (bar colour, one was Lake Placid Blue, the other is Candy Apple Red). Setup the same, same pickups, you name it. They sounded remarkably different. The blue one was brighter in tone, whereas the red guitar was warmer, more well rounded in tone.

I couldn't explain it, with the only variable being the wood, so I put it down to the wood.
 
Here's a link to published research article that strongly suggests (with empirical evidence) that the type of wood impacts the sound.

However, like others have said, it's a little part of it. And certainly there is no such thing as "better quality" woods.
Thanks for the link. It is a very interesting study which focused primarily on the acoustics with an “informal” look at listener perception of differences. The violin study focused entirely on listener preference (as opposed to perceiving differences). The other interesting finding was that the differences were frequency dependent.

It would be interesting to have a study that combined measuring acoustics with listener perception in different contexts. The second violin study responded to criticism of the first violin study by changing the venue from a hotel room to a concert hall to provide a more relevant context.

For electric guitar it is tricky to pick a typical context because it would depend a great deal on the genre, signal chain, band configuration etc.

Regarding the wood species and grade, from a layperson perspective I would think there would be variability both within and between wood species.
 
My belief is that it does - even if its just a marginal difference and not something to be overly bothered about because you can't really change it anyway - unlike Pick-ups, Amps, Speakers, Pedals, Strings etc - all of which can have a much bigger impact.

i think it maters more to the Luthier as they are the ones that are selecting the woods and building the instrument - the musician won't 'care' about the species, more the weight, the feel, the 'complete' tone, just whether the instrument works for them or not. If it doesn;t, they'll move on to something else. They'll maybe change Pick-ups or something else to try and get the 'tone' they want, and if that doesn't work, they'll trade it in.

You aren't going to replace the neck to see if that helps and/or what difference the neck woods make - assuming you can as not all are Bolt-ons. You can't exactly swap the Maple Cap - but can compare Maple Capped to All-Mahogany body (although ensuring everything is set-up exactly the same with exactly the same Hardware, strings, Pups etc to ensure its ONLY the body wood that is different is impossible). You can also compare wood Library models - particularly those that differ the most from 'Standard' rather than just using similar tonal species or just a different fretboard. Swamp Ash Body with Maple Neck is certainly more noticeably different to Mahogany/Maple body with Mahogany/Rosewood neck/fretboard in my opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, there is a 'tonal' reason Strats aren't made of Mahogany as that would not give the 'traditional' Strat tone/attack etc but as Musicians don't (or can't) really change the woods, other things become more 'important' to the tone - things like Amps, Speakers, Pick-ups, Strings, Pedals (inc EQ) to get the tone they want. The wood is part of the basic 'tone' of the guitar that is always there though...
 
Here's my 2p worth, with the only true example I can give.

Once upon a time, I owned two Fender MIM Richie Sambora Stratocasters. Same spec (bar colour, one was Lake Placid Blue, the other is Candy Apple Red). Setup the same, same pickups, you name it. They sounded remarkably different. The blue one was brighter in tone, whereas the red guitar was warmer, more well rounded in tone.

I couldn't explain it, with the only variable being the wood, so I put it down to the wood.
Did you measure pickup height on both guitars?
 
Here is an oldie but goodie trick that shows a tremendous difference in acoustic volume just by touching the tip of the headstock of a guitar against a wall in your house. Strum the guitar, and then touch the tip of the headstock firmly to a wall and strum again. Can any of the guitar scientists explain this effect? My wall is drywall, and I wonder if there is a difference in sounds of different wall materials, like wood paneling vs drywall, etc
 
put your ear up to the back of the neck on ANY guitar an hit each string and let it ring until it stops...... repeat with all you have .. I have all my clients do it..
 
Here is an oldie but goodie trick that shows a tremendous difference in acoustic volume just by touching the tip of the headstock of a guitar against a wall in your house. Strum the guitar, and then touch the tip of the headstock firmly to a wall and strum again. Can any of the guitar scientists explain this effect? My wall is drywall, and I wonder if there is a difference in sounds of different wall materials, like wood paneling vs drywall, etc
Yes there would be a difference. Try it in a stone house and see what happens. The drywall on your house is hollow on the back filled with insulation if it is an exterior wall, and hollow if it is an interior wall. The wall behaves like a speaker cab. It will vibrate and you can hear it.
 
I took a deep dive into a series of long video interviews of Santa Cruz Guitars' owner/designer/builder, Richard Hoover, who gets into the weeds about guitar making in great depth.

They were done by Premier Guitar's John Bohlinger. It was fascinating.

I'm not interested in arguing about someone else's ideas. I'm sharing this because I found it extremely interesting. You don't have to agree. It's simply stuff to think about, explained by a master.

For those who haven't played one, Santa Cruz are acoustic guitars that start at Private Stock cost and go up into the stratosphere. They're fantastic guitars.

Whether you like, dislike, buy into, or don't buy into Hoover's ideas about guitar making, they're certainly worth a listen since (like Paul R. Smith) the man has devoted his life to high-end wooden instruments and has learned a lot over many. many years.

Of particular interest to me was this video about things I never thought were important - lots of unexpected info!


Among the tidbits:

Hoover uses wood bindings and other trim pieces, not just because they're pretty, but because he finds the edges of the top, where it joins the guitar and where bindings sit, have an effect on the sound; wood bindings in that critical area work better sonically/inhibit the vibration of the top less than plastic.

He also uses violin-makers' tricks in the kerfing inside the body to transfer the sound to the sides and back differently. This is apparently unusual.

He feels that a nitrocellulose finish is best because nitrocellulose is a wood product (hence the 'cellulose'). He finds it reacts to vibration with the wood instead of inhibiting the wood. I hadn't thought of it that way; I just prefer nitro. Maybe that's why.

In Hoover's world, the most important tone is what projects to the audience and mic, as opposed to guitars that are made to sound impressive to the player sitting behind the instrument (I should point out that they also sound great to the player, IMHO).

All in all, interesting points of view. The series is both recent and very much worth the watch if you're into the arcana of making guitars, and the things that pieces of wood do for tone.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top