Do your Fingers kill your playing?

Sybo

Sybo

Jim
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Messages
1,384
Location
Nashville Tn
I happen to spend another fantastic one on one with my Mentor and Friend Jak3afr, I happen to walk in with a new case and got the “ whatcha got there”. Now I must say, we met on this forum, obviously with a love for PRS. Inside the case was not a PRS, and I shared of the couple of guitars I let go and was excited about sharing new things with a friend.

Of course, he asks about the other guitars and I finally think I figured out why I am soo picky with my guitars. I have big hands!! I watch my friend dance on the fretboard like a ballet dancer, the leanest of precise solenoid like movements. Is he human? He must diet on strictly the simplest of Telecasters. No trems EVER, just tiny fingers.. I hate you:p

Is this just me? Do you secretly dream of that fretboard that you can fit your sausage-like fingers in? It can’t be just me? Gotta great new finger diet idea?
.
 
The expression "all thumbs" was definitely my mantra when I started playing. I don't have monster mitts, but a bit larger than many more versatile players are blessed with. But perseverance does pay off with time (and I "exercise" my digits regularly) if you keep at it. I doubt I'll ever be super fast with great dexterity, but it will be what it will be. I have only had one guitar that I just simply couldn't play due to the extremely sporty action and small fretboard/neck: an Ibanez Talman electric acoustic. Was a good sounding piece, even unplugged, which is I wanted in an e/acoustic. But I just couldn't handle the action; I finally sold it and replaced it with a Yamaha SGX800. The SE A/E line was a bit out of my price range at the time.
 
Fingers have nothing to do with. Practice, practice, practice is what it is all about. The more you put in the more you get out. It's like any sport or hobby or job the more you do it the more proficient you get.

Thats why it cracks me up to see some of these you tube videos on cheap guitars those guys could play anything they are just great players. A good player can play junk and make it sound good.
 
No doubt human differences can add challenge, but then I see lefties playing right handed guitars backwards and upside down, or people like Jeff Healey who did it with a guitar on his lap, sightless… yeah, got to just say it’s me when I’m not cutting it.

But that doesn't mean a guitar with more room between the strings or frets is a bad thing for you. Definitely get what suits your hands if you can. It certainly won’t hurt your playing!
 
Thanks for the good words.

A lot of people see just the surface level of how good those guys are and not how much and what they practiced.

I've been playing for 2/3 of my life and I'm not even 30 plus I have a bachelor's degree on guitar with two years of that consisting of classical training.

The guitarists' mentioned above have what I would consider "conditioned" hands. Part of that is the physical conditioning and the other part is actually rewiring your brain to have better finger independence.

Then you either have to already have worked out your "patterns" to find the right notes or have enough of a grasp on theory to grab the notes you want.

Add it all up and you get your mind blown just watching.
 
guitarforlife said:
Fingers have nothing to do with. Practice, practice, practice is what it is all about. The more you put in the more you get out. It's like any sport or hobby or job the more you do it the more proficient you get.

Thats why it cracks me up to see some of these you tube videos on cheap guitars those guys could play anything they are just great players. A good player can play junk and make it sound good.
Click to expand...

I totally agree (in bold). Over 30 years of teaching martial arts and I tell my students when they tell me they aren't progressing as fast as they want that they simply aren't doing the time necessary. 3 days/evening in the dojo aren't enough without taking the lessons home and working on them with extra effort. I didn't get to be a 5th dan by just going to class and I have no problems telling a student that. If it was easy everyone would do it.
Having said that, we all have hurdles and obstacles to overcome on our journeys. Education, careers, music, whatever. Sometimes it means finding another way or instrument sure, but more often it is the human element that is the culprit. I've had to deal with broken bones, dislocated fingers, arthritis, and most of all now an aging body in general. But that can not allow me to use it for an excuse for not practicing no matter what I'm doing. The Ibanez wasn't at fault at all, and I have no qualms admitting that. But the replacement just suits me better. I can wear a limp, cheap gi in front of the class or my crisp, more expensive tournament grade gi. But there is a definite difference in the appearance and performance of the two.
 
Dexterity is similar to natural athletic ability. Some people take to it relatively easy, but that doesn't mean they will ever have "elite" speed. Just like some guy can be good at multiple sports, but is not an elite sprinter. I think "most" people are coordinated enough to learn to play chords and maybe some leads, but your ceiling will be determined by just how much dexterity you have. It's not just a matter of practice, just like you can't go out and practice for hours every day and then run a 10.1 hundred meters. Your natural ceiling will determine just how fast you could ever play. Whether or not you practice enough to hit that level, and then to do it well, is a different thing. But just playing fast or leads that require tricky fingering is not just a matter of how much you practice. But trust me, the blinding speed that someone like Paul Gilbert can play with, is something only a very few people could ever do, not matter HOW much they practice.

And, just like there are for athletics, there are exercises and training things you can do to increase your dexterity, speed and accuracy. But again, I think that just like athletics, you can only improve to your "ceiling" regardless of how much you practice. The guys with elite speed, have not just practiced for more than most, they also have a higher natural ceiling, that allows them to go faster.

I know I've told this before, but it's exactly about this topic. I had a friend growing up that was one of those kids that cared about NOTHING but guitar and all he thought about was being a guitar player. While I was playing multiple sports, chasing girls and racing cars and bikes, as well as playing guitar, He'd literally go home from school and play until bed time. Almost ever day. He was a good solid player, but he could never play as fast as I could or some of the trickier stuff that I could and he knew he practiced WAY more than I did. That's not to brag, but to make a point. This guy didn't go to college and was in his 30s before he had his first job, other than playing guitar. It's all he did. In one point he was in 4 different bands, just so he could play out as many nights a week as possible. I also had a friend that, while almost impossible, played basketball even more than I did. He'd go home after school and shoot at his house for 2 hours, then come up for the evening games at school and play the whole time we did. Then go back home and shoot in his driveway until time to go in. He played with us in Jr. High. He made the team freshman year, but never played, and by sophomore year he never made the team again. He still played with us all the time, and was one of the better shooters around if you left him open. But he could never get past that level, and he really put a lot of work into it.

When it comes to speed and dexterity, I think we all have a ceiling that is pre-determined. Whether we get to, close to, or nowhere near that ceiling, is determined by US. But where that ceiling is, is not. IMHO
 
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I agree with practice, practice, practice. On the specs side, you could try to find guitars with a larger nut width to give yourself a little more room to maneuver.
 
I agree to a certain extent. However the more time spent with a guitar in hand the more you figure out the trick of the trade lets say. Sure maybe not everyone can play at break neck speed but the more time you spend the more you can figure out to achieve the same greatness with what you have.
DreamTheaterRules said:
Dexterity is similar to natural athletic ability. Some people take to it relatively easy, but that doesn't mean they will ever have "elite" speed. Just like some guy can be good at multiple sports, but is not an elite sprinter. I think "most" people are coordinated enough to learn to play chords and maybe some leads, but your ceiling will be determined by just how much dexterity you have. It's not just a matter of practice, just like you can't go out and practice for hours every day and then run a 10.1 hundred meters. Your natural ceiling will determine just how fast you could ever play. Whether or not you practice enough to hit that level, and then to do it well, is a different thing. But just playing fast or leads that require tricky fingering is not just a matter of how much you practice. But trust me, the blinding speed that someone like Paul Gilbert can play with, is something only a very few people could ever do, not matter HOW much they practice.

And, just like there are for athletics, there are exercises and training things you can do to increase your dexterity, speed and accuracy. But again, I think that just like athletics, you can only improve to your "ceiling" regardless of how much you practice. The guys with elite speed, have not just practiced for more than most, they also have a higher natural ceiling, that allows them to go faster.

I know I've told this before, but it's exactly about this topic. I had a friend growing up that was one of those kids that cared about NOTHING but guitar and all he thought about was being a guitar player. While I was playing multiple sports, chasing girls and racing cars and bikes, as well as playing guitar, He'd literally go home from school and play until bed time. Almost ever day. He was a good solid player, but he could never play as fast as I could or some of the trickier stuff that I could and he knew he practiced WAY more than I did. That's not to brag, but to make a point. This guy didn't go to college and was in his 30s before he had his first job, other than playing guitar. It's all he did. In one point he was in 4 different bands, just so he could play out as many nights a week as possible. I also had a friend that, while almost impossible, played basketball even more than I did. He'd go home after school and shoot at his house for 2 hours, then come up for the evening games at school and play the whole time we did. Then go back home and shoot in his driveway until time to go in. He played with us in Jr. High. He made the team freshman year, but never played, and by sophomore year he never made the team again. He still played with us all the time, and was one of the better shooters around if you left him open. But he could never get past that level, and he really put a lot of work into it.

When it comes to speed and dexterity, I think we all have a ceiling that is pre-determined. Whether we get to, close to, or nowhere near that ceiling, is determined by US. But where that ceiling is, is not. IMHO
Click to expand...
 
guitarforlife said:
I agree to a certain extent. However the more time spent with a guitar in hand the more you figure out the trick of the trade lets say. Sure maybe not everyone can play at break neck speed but the more time you spend the more you can figure out to achieve the same greatness with what you have.
Click to expand...

I know and said, that like with anything, practice can improve your skills. There is no disagreement there, unless you are one of the people who just "doesn't have it." And re: "achieve the same greatness..." I don't know about that. Just like the dexterity part of it I mentioned above, when it comes to music, some people just don't have it. My wife is one. LOVES music. Would give ANYTHING to be even an average singer, but she can't sing at all. One of my best friends has an older brother that has been in a band since he was a teenager and he's like 65. Little brother has tried drums, bass, guitar, and even piano. He can't play anything. He tried hard for years, one instrument after another. I worked him. His brother worked with him, let him set in with band practices... he just CAN NOT do it. He tried. He practiced. He REALLY wanted it.

Some get it. Some get it well. Some are gifted. And some just don't get it. Again, the practice can develop what you have to whatever your ceiling is, but just practice does not guarantee that you'll ever be able to play any instrument... again, just like sports.
 
Another perfect example of what I'm talking about: There is a guy I go to church with who has played guitar for years. He puts me to shame on chord knowledge... which is no big deal. LOL But he knows every stinking chord ever made I think. He's been playing for years and has 3 expensive acoustic guitars. And he's mostly a decent player.

But he's impossible to play with. He simply can't keep time. He'll be fine for a few measures and then he has this "flaw" where if he misses something, he goes back to get it. That doesn't work in music. If you miss the chord on the 3rd beat, you get back on board by the 4th. He will go back after the 3rd beat, play the 3rd chord, and then he's suddenly behind every one and trying to catch up. I've tried over and over to tell him "If you miss one, you miss one, but you have to move on to the next one. THEN it's just a missed, or misplayed chord and the "error" is only one beat long. When you go back between the 3 and 4 beat and try to get that 3rd chord in again, then you're behind on the 4th beat, and many times, the next 1 and 2 OR longer, and what's worse, he just can't make himself skip to catch up and be on track with the song, so he's still chording along BEHIND everyone else and then trying to speed up his beat clock to catch up so now he's also out of time with everyone else. It drives me crazy.

I noticed that when he'd play by himself, he'd do this regularly. And you know what... when you're the only one playing, you can actually get away with adding a beat here and there. Bluegrass guys do it all the time! :p:p But any musician and most people recognize you got off the beat. But when you do it with a band, you're suddenly not playing with anyone else in the band and when you try to speed up to catch up, it's a cluster...up. :D

This is one way that people can just "not have it." He's been trying for years to get past this. Took lessons for years. Worked with other players... he just keeps doing it and can't help himself. The first time I ever played with him was one of the worst live playing experiences I've ever had. Our regular rhythm player agreed to play bass so this guy could play rhythm. My regular rhythm player told him "you just follow the beat with me, I'll stay right on the beat." But, as soon as I started soloing, he'd start watching me and get lost... then of course instead of "find your place and keep going" he was doing his chords 3 beats after they should have been played and then trying to catch up in a measure or two." After two songs of this, I quit playing lead and started strumming the chords.

But that's enough of my silly examples. If my mom were here, I'd say ask her this question. She gave piano lessons for almost 60 years. She could tell you.
 
These are great examples for sure. And yes people have certain gifts especially when it comes to singing.
The thing is I have zero idea who any one is on here or their ability to play a tune. I hate to discourage anyone and have them believe this is all I will ever be.
Giving up on what they love. Even if it is pounding out simple fun songs like Hang on Sloopy.

DreamTheaterRules said:
Another perfect example of what I'm talking about: There is a guy I go to church with who has played guitar for years. He puts me to shame on chord knowledge... which is no big deal. LOL But he knows every stinking chord ever made I think. He's been playing for years and has 3 expensive acoustic guitars. And he's mostly a decent player.

But he's impossible to play with. He simply can't keep time. He'll be fine for a few measures and then he has this "flaw" where if he misses something, he goes back to get it. That doesn't work in music. If you miss the chord on the 3rd beat, you get back on board by the 4th. He will go back after the 3rd beat, play the 3rd chord, and then he's suddenly behind every one and trying to catch up. I've tried over and over to tell him "If you miss one, you miss one, but you have to move on to the next one. THEN it's just a missed, or misplayed chord and the "error" is only one beat long. When you go back between the 3 and 4 beat and try to get that 3rd chord in again, then you're behind on the 4th beat, and many times, the next 1 and 2 OR longer, and what's worse, he just can't make himself skip to catch up and be on track with the song, so he's still chording along BEHIND everyone else and then trying to speed up his beat clock to catch up so now he's also out of time with everyone else. It drives me crazy.

I noticed that when he'd play by himself, he'd do this regularly. And you know what... when you're the only one playing, you can actually get away with adding a beat here and there. Bluegrass guys do it all the time! :p:p But any musician and most people recognize you got off the beat. But when you do it with a band, you're suddenly not playing with anyone else in the band and when you try to speed up to catch up, it's a cluster...up. :D

This is one way that people can just "not have it." He's been trying for years to get past this. Took lessons for years. Worked with other players... he just keeps doing it and can't help himself. The first time I ever played with him was one of the worst live playing experiences I've ever had. Our regular rhythm player agreed to play bass so this guy could play rhythm. My regular rhythm player told him "you just follow the beat with me, I'll stay right on the beat." But, as soon as I started soloing, he'd start watching me and get lost... then of course instead of "find your place and keep going" he was doing his chords 3 beats after they should have been played and then trying to catch up in a measure or two." After two songs of this, I quit playing lead and started strumming the chords.

But that's enough of my silly examples. If my mom were here, I'd say ask her this question. She gave piano lessons for almost 60 years. She could tell you.
Click to expand...
I say everyone that enjoys this "playing guitar" keep at it and enjoy what you love.
 
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Sybo said:
I happen to spend another fantastic one on one with my Mentor and Friend Jak3afr, I happen to walk in with a new case and got the “ whatcha got there”. Now I must say, we met on this forum, obviously with a love for PRS. Inside the case was not a PRS, and I shared of the couple of guitars I let go and was excited about sharing new things with a friend.

Of course, he asks about the other guitars and I finally think I figured out why I am soo picky with my guitars. I have big hands!! I watch my friend dance on the fretboard like a ballet dancer, the leanest of precise solenoid like movements. Is he human? He must diet on strictly the simplest of Telecasters. No trems EVER, just tiny fingers.. I hate you:p

Is this just me? Do you secretly dream of that fretboard that you can fit your sausage-like fingers in? It can’t be just me? Gotta great new finger diet idea?
.
Click to expand...
Hey, if the Kingfish can do it so can you. Unfortunately, talent not included.

 
I had a math teacher that said "mathematicians are lazy; otherwise we could never solve half of these problems". In a way, the same can be said for guitarists. If there's a way to cheat, we'll do it. Doesn't have to be technical to be musical.
"There is no such thing as bad music, as long as it entertains at least one person." Lee Liberace
 
DreamTheaterRules said:
I know and said, that like with anything, practice can improve your skills. There is no disagreement there, unless you are one of the people who just "doesn't have it." And re: "achieve the same greatness..." I don't know about that. Just like the dexterity part of it I mentioned above, when it comes to music, some people just don't have it. My wife is one. LOVES music. Would give ANYTHING to be even an average singer, but she can't sing at all.
Click to expand...

I asked my wife, who has a bachelor's degree in voice, if she thought she could teach anyone to sing. She said, "sort of, singing is about finding a tone and perfecting it. Some people just don't have it and it doesn't work out."

She also feels the same way about guitar and fingers. I've tried to teach her but her fingers are too piano trained (she's also left-handed and attempting to learn on righty guitars) and then she gets frustrated and goes back to piano.

And to your other story about catching chords after they've gone by... All the guys I knew who did that were church and bluegrass players who didn't play out a lot.
 
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