Diminishing returns

DirtyLuck

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So, just a discussion point. Not here to start a flame war or bag on lower priced gear etc....

But, at what point do you feel you hit diminishing returns on an instrument. Be it a guitar, bass, piano, mandolin, etc.

Like everything made, there comes a point across the board where you have reached the top of quality and you're just primarily paying for a name.
 
I bought up until I had something I could honestly say “This is as good as I could ever benefit from”.

For example, I’ve had the same bass since the 70s. Same piano for 30 years.

I do believe some brands cost more than you might pay elsewhere for essentially the same product, but perceived value is still value. I don’t mind paying extra for the comfort/confidence of a good brand.
 
I spend very little time thinking about the concept of diminishing returns. I think of things in terms of what experience I want to have, and then find whatever it is that provides it. If I can afford the experience, great. If I can’t, I either wait until I can or forgo it.

Concert tickets are an example of that. In an arena show, I want decent seats where I can actually see the performers without spending the whole time looking at a video screen. I prefer not to feel too crowded. For me, that all leads to what are club-level seats at the local arena, usually not too far back from the stage. I much prefer the front row of that seating area. For me, it’s perfect. If the price is more than I want to spend, I don’t go. If I can’t get the seats I want, I don’t go.
 
I've long accepted that there are diminishing returns. Case in point, after buying numerous Core models over the last ~20 years, I picked up an S2 594 Thinline that I just love. It costs like 1/2 - 1/3 as much, and is it half or a third of a Core guitar by comparison? No way. In terms of fit, finish, playability, and sound, it's like 90%. Actually, I enjoy it more than a gorgeous Core SC594 I own, because that guitar is a whiny bi!?h with something haywire in the control cavity. The soldering iron comes out today...

PRS does a pretty good job of convincing me that when I'm paying more for their stuff, I'm paying for more expensive materials and more customization and more attention to detail -- all of which I believe are actually more expensive. Other brands maybe not so much. Would I pay more than the price of my first house on an optioned-out Porsche? Not on your life! But obviously other people do, and that's their choice.

Anyway, for me the buying decision comes down to 1.) do I like it? and 2.) do I feel like it's worth the price? And that's pretty much it. Mind you I can spend weeks or months making that decision...
 
So, just a discussion point. Not here to start a flame war or bag on lower priced gear etc....

But, at what point do you feel you hit diminishing returns on an instrument. Be it a guitar, bass, piano, mandolin, etc.

Like everything made, there comes a point across the board where you have reached the top of quality and you're just primarily paying for a name.

That's an individual thing and only you will know if the 'next' price tier up offers 'enough' benefits to you personally to warrant the extra cost or not.

Take the PRS 'tiers' as an example, an SE is around a quarter of the Price of its 'Core' equivalent, and S2 around half the cost. An SE is certainly not delivering a 'quarter' of the overall options, sound, playability and/or features - its still a fantastic guitar that sounds very similar to its much more 'expensive' Core version. Of course you don't get 1 piece Mahogany Bodies and Book Matched thick solid Flame Maple caps, different neck construction (all reduces material costs and reduces waste so even 'more' product from cheaper and similar quantities of materials), not 'Made in the US' different 'carve' (reduces Overheads and/or labour costs, less 'hands-on' time required etc), Gig bag, not a hard shell case etc but it's still a fantastic instrument for the Price and definitely don't feel like your missing out on 75% the overall functionality of the instrument - its still good enough to gig, write, record etc

If Made in US matters to you, not having 'SE', however discreet, and 'Made by Cor-tek' on the back of the headstock matters to you, the difference in how they construct guitars matters to you, the hardware/electronics they use, even if just wanting a Hard Case matters to you, all the little things may add up to YOU personally to Justify spending more on your guitar, but equally if they 'don't add up to you, then you have found the point where paying more is not worth it to you. You may find the S2's are 'good' enough with the same hardware/pups as the SE's and can 'swap' them out for less than it costs to buy a core so that's where its diminishing returns to you- the 'extras' you get by buying Core aren't worth the 'extra' cost to you in that example. Another may value the differences between a S2 and Core worth the Cost, the US made Pups, highest grade hardware/electronics, Hard Case, the full Violin Carve, recessed backplates, beautiful tops etc

It really is a Personal thing and comes down to what the individual 'values' in their equipment/tools, where they are in their own musical journey as well as their own Financial situation and budgets. If you are 'early' in your musical journey, you may not have the ability to justify spending more on a guitar, even if you 'could' afford it so it really will vary from person to person.

Paying for a 'Name' can also have its benefits too - buying a PRS comes with warranties and one of the 'best' customer services too. You could equally build your own from a Kit and bond more with that than any 'High-end' guitar, even swear its the best playing/sounding guitar you've ever heard etc. Its an 'individual' thing. With SO much variation in style, shape, features/options, scale length, Pup options etc etc, there is a Guitar to suit every budget style/taste and playing style - as for whether its 'worth' spending more on ANYTHING, its what the difference in cost buy's you, whether those 'benefits' actually matter to 'YOU' personally or not at that moment in time, your financial situation, your preferences at that time etc etc
 
It depends, are you asking as a collector and talking dollar value or are you asking as a musician and talking improving one’s skill level? Diminishing returns means different things to different people. You’ve got musicians who see their instrument as merely a tool to help them in their craft. Then you have those musicians who are never satisfied and are constantly seeking that ever elusive perfect tone. These guys will find an instrument that feels good in their hands, whether it be a cheap one or expensive one, and then they’ll spend hundreds sometimes thousands of dollars changing out the hardware, pickups or strings until they get it just right. And then on the collectors side of things, you have people that look at these as merely art to hang on a wall to display them for all to see. And on the flip side you have collectors who keep them stored away untouched hoping one day to sell them to get a great return on their investment.
 
So, just a discussion point. Not here to start a flame war or bag on lower priced gear etc....

But, at what point do you feel you hit diminishing returns on an instrument. Be it a guitar, bass, piano, mandolin, etc.

Like everything made, there comes a point across the board where you have reached the top of quality and you're just primarily paying for a name.

That's a really good question. I think the point of diminishing returns is a subjective determination made by the person evaluating the instrument. It's relative to what a player thinks is important for what they're doing, their ability, and what they're willing to pay.

Part of the equation is, what are you listening for, and if you hear what you're listening for, do you have the ability to do anything with what you hear, i.e., take advantage or coax the nuance from the thing?

What are you looking for in terms of feel, touch and response? Well, what are your limits?

The great players, it seems to me, are listening very deeply to their instrument when interacting with it, often to deliver great subtlety. There's something of a hands > instrument > ears > brain > hands feedback loop involved.

That doesn't necessarily involve spending all your hard-earned cash. But sometimes, for some people, the balance skews more toward the expensive stuff if they're looking for a particular sound.

I'll reach a point of diminishing returns in piano choice long before Helene Grimaud or Daniil Trifonev, because they're able to do more with the instrument, and given their careers, probably need to be able to listen and concentrate more deeply on nuance when they play. As concert artists, they absolutely require a gorgeous sounding, six figure $, concert grand piano.

I would hit the point of diminishing returns at a much lower level. But I'm halfway decently trained to play piano, and I've been playing since the age of four, so I might not reach the point of diminishing returns as quickly as someone who's new to the instrument. Even if they can hear what the thing is doing, they might not be able to take advantage of nuance when they're playing at that stage.

As expensive as a Core or PS PRS is, compared to the instruments most orchestral players buy, it's chump change. I know players who've taken out mortgages on their instruments.

For me, the answer is, if I can hear a difference and do something with it, it's worth considering. But there really aren't, and can't be, any rules until you know exactly what you're dealing with by playing the instrument.

Edit:

There's the whole matter of inspiring one's creativity that I didn't explore.

There's also the possibility that if you think you're playing better and sounding better on an instrument, well, maybe you are, and/or maybe the confidence helps!
 
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I think there are different questions here, because diminishing returns kick in well before reaching the top of instrument quality. The PRS range is a great example of this. Diminishing returns--the point at which increased expense does not bring an equivalent increase in quality--set in somewhere in the SE range, or at most in the transition from SE to S2. However, in general PRS quality continues to improve through at least the core line. I think after that it becomes much more a matter of customization, which is more personal in terms of being an improvement or not.
 
I think there are different questions here, because diminishing returns kick in well before reaching the top of instrument quality. The PRS range is a great example of this. Diminishing returns--the point at which increased expense does not bring an equivalent increase in quality--set in somewhere in the SE range, or at most in the transition from SE to S2. However, in general PRS quality continues to improve through at least the core line. I think after that it becomes much more a matter of customization, which is more personal in terms of being an improvement or not.

My opinion here (and it's worth the zero shekels you paid for it) is that there is a quality improvement between SE and S2 -- or at least there is based on my 10+ year old SEs. If you're talking about the difference between S2 and higher level Stevensville guitars, you're paying for fancier, rather than better.
 
I personally don't consider a diminishing return from SE to Core. There is a clear difference between the tiers in every way. SE are great guitars, but I don't confuse one for core. Other factors aside, my ex is a talented musician that could always tell the difference in tone, even from the other room. S2 is also a great guitar but more of a gray area, especially with the 10th anniversary S2s shrinking the gap betwen core. The tiers of PRS make sense to me and there are solid reasons for the move up the product lines.

Now, PS is a while different beast that I don't include in the regular production line logic. As a hobbyist I personally will probably never own one, but a WL I absolutely will someday.
 
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I hadn't owned non USA made guitars since I was a teen. In my 70's now, a couple of years ago I gambled and bought a Reverend manufactured in South Korea. I went on to own five more. I'm down to one now, but I was looking for a specific sound. The PRS CE24 semi-hollow gave me what I wanted, even though I had to sell two of the Reverends to get it. I've seen no difference in quality from the Reverends to the PRS. The PRS cost twice as much but I got what I wanted so I'm happy. There are no PRS Core guitars in any stores within a hundred miles, so I'm sure there is a difference with those. :)
 
I hadn't owned non USA made guitars since I was a teen. In my 70's now, a couple of years ago I gambled and bought a Reverend manufactured in South Korea. I went on to own five more. I'm down to one now, but I was looking for a specific sound. The PRS CE24 semi-hollow gave me what I wanted, even though I had to sell two of the Reverends to get it. I've seen no difference in quality from the Reverends to the PRS. The PRS cost twice as much but I got what I wanted so I'm happy. There are no PRS Core guitars in any stores within a hundred miles, so I'm sure there is a difference with those. :)
I'm not familiar with the foreign made Reverends, but I thought the original made-in-Detroit ones were pretty cool.
 
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