DG50...The Final Frontier

[László]

Granted, I have some good stuff. But there's one more gear goal I have in mind before all is said and done: A DG50 amp to go with my HXDA and DG30. I'd like to do that later this year if things go well.

I'm reading on the PRS site something I didn't previously know - the DG50 has 4xEL34 power tubes. Am I correct in my assumption that for 4 EL34s to put out 50 watts, they have to be running in Class A mode?

Gotta say, I love Class A amps, and my experience with a 30 Watt Bad Cat Hot Cat ten years or more ago was darn good - 2xEL34 running Class A. It was awesome!

This could be a fantastic amp, and I'd like to get one while I can.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Les, I have not seen anything that said the DG50 ran in Class A. You can not assume that it does just because it was 4 EL34s and only puts out 50 watts. As much as you know about amps, you'll be familiar with how 5 different amps might have the same power output tube compliment, yet all be rated at different wattage. While this can be for several reasons, the OT can take any tube compliment from the max those tubes can put out, to well under that amount, just based on the OT specs. I actually got to hear an old classic Fender Champ that a friend had, that used to sound SOOOOOOO nice. the OT went out and with the idea of giving it more clean headroom and balls, he replaced it with a bigger OT. We both agreed that while both objectives were accomplished, the amp didn't sound as great when cranked up. The combination of the OT running out of gas, the supply caps running out of gas, etc. was part of the magic that amp had. I've specifically heard another amp that had only the output supply caps enlarged and did a similar thing.

Anyway, that was probably more info than you wanted. LOL When the designers lay out these amps, they pick all these parts carefully based on how they want the amp to be voice, and how they want it to respond. There are even some things you can start to assume about an amp once you see things like... '4 EL34s, but smaller OT and smaller P/S caps, might mean less gut punch bottom end, but smoother, more compressed at volume, breaks up earlier, etc... Where 4 EL34s with huge Mesa type OT and big supply caps would probably lean more towards knocking you off your feet when you whacked a power chord, being tighter on the chugs, more dynamic/less compressed. I'm rambling... sorry. I'll really be sorry if PRS replies that the amp is biased Class A! LOL But I don't think it is.

 

[dsenoj]

I don't know much about the internals of amps but listening to the PRS Experience sessions where Doug and David Grissom talked about these amps, I got the impression that the DG 50 is basically a 100 watt amp designed to start breaking up at 50 watts. Not that anyone said it that way, that's just the impression I got. I think both DG amps are cathode biased but I don't know whether that means anything about Class A or not. David Grissom did say that he doesn't play many venues where he can really use the DG 50.

 

[andy474x]

It has bias adjustment, does that mean it's not class A?

 

[dsenoj]

It has jacks to measure the bias but I don't think it has bias adjustment. At PRS Experience, David Grissom talked about that and that he uses the jacks to see if he has a tube going bad because the measurement is out of whack with the others.

 

[László]

I read somewhere that it's cathode biased. That alone would give it less output wattage, of course, so Dream Theater may be right. It would also cause the amp to break up earlier, and I've felt that the amps "give" a little more than fixed bias amps.

And perhaps my memory of my old Hot Cat 30 is faulty and it was cathode biased instead of Class A. I dunno.

I want a DG50 anyway.

My wife has however informed me that she is unwilling to go without, say, food for the next few months. So I must be patient.

Not my best virtue, patience.

 

[alantig]

My wife has however informed me that she is unwilling to go without, say, food for the next few months. So I must be patient.

Les, I know you're a smart guy and probably don't need this warning, but please, I beg you...do NOT say anything remotely like, "You know, a bit less food might do you some good." Yes, your food bills will go down, at least until you regain consciousness, but the medical bills will far outweigh those savings.

 

[aristotle]

Very few amps are true class A, and very few amps are true AB. There are shades of gray. Cathode biased amps tend more towards Class A, but tend not to go as deep into the AB territory for a variety of reasons. My guess (and it's only a guess since I haven't seen anything published describing the specifics of the DG50) is that it's cathode biased, and someplace between full Class A operation and Class AB. You can say the same thing for the Bad Cat (or an AC30 for that matter), but at 50W, I'm guessing that the DG50 is more A/B than A...

 

[László]

Les, I know you're a smart guy and probably don't need this warning, but please, I beg you...do NOT say anything remotely like, "You know, a bit less food might do you some good." Yes, your food bills will go down, at least until you regain consciousness, but the medical bills will far outweigh those savings.

Nah, my wife looks great, and she knows it. Still has a great figure, looks good enough that she's in demand as a beauty consultant, doing demos for two high-end makeup lines.

She'd laugh.

Then she'd kill me, and not botch the job. She's very efficient.

 

[László]

Very few amps are true class A, and very few amps are true AB. There are shades of gray. Cathode biased amps tend more towards Class A, but tend not to go as deep into the AB territory for a variety of reasons. My guess (and it's only a guess since I haven't seen anything published describing the specifics of the DG50) is that it's cathode biased, and someplace between full Class A operation and Class AB. You can say the same thing for the Bad Cat (or an AC30 for that matter), but at 50W, I'm guessing that the DG50 is more A/B than A...

I will take your word for it, Doctor!

 

[Dusty Chalk]

My wife has however informed me that she is unwilling to go without, say, food for the next few months. So I must be patient.

Not my best virtue, patience.

Yeah, you should probably do better than eating Taco Bell and ramen for the next few months, yourself. She's probably right.

 

[prsrocker1988]

Awesome Les...the DG amps sound soooo good...and on a completely shallow note, they are some of the best looking amps I've ever seen. I have this thing about the color red with creme (just look at my McSoapy).

I'm more into the Blackface/Silverface clean+pedals thing (I'm still waiting for PRS to do their take on an old Bassman head as that's what I play out of, but one of the early blackface ones without the other gain stages so it's a clean head) but to me the DG amp is by far the best amp I've heard that nails that warm British clean tone mated with a thick nice distortion in the modern era. To me it sounds like the best Tweed mated with an AC30 you could ever have. And even Marshally in some cases (though not in competition with the HXDA).

That said, I really need to add a DGT to the arsenal sometime. I love David's tone and playing.

 

[László]

Awesome Les...the DG amps sound soooo good...and on a completely shallow note, they are some of the best looking amps I've ever seen. I have this thing about the color red with creme (just look at my McSoapy).

Oh, they're nice looking amps, for certain!

I'm more into the Blackface/Silverface clean+pedals thing (I'm still waiting for PRS to do their take on an old Bassman head as that's what I play out of, but one of the early blackface ones without the other gain stages so it's a clean head) but to me the DG amp is by far the best amp I've heard that nails that warm British clean tone mated with a thick nice distortion in the modern era. To me it sounds like the best Tweed mated with an AC30 you could ever have. And even Marshally in some cases (though not in competition with the HXDA).

You are very perceptive re: the DG30, though I do think it leans more Tweed than AC30.

I played a BF Bassman for many years (built in '66 or 67 would be my best guess, and it's a guess because it was NOS when I bought it in 1968, and I forgot to write down the serial number when I sold it, but it was a long time ago and back then after I played it for many years and loads of gigs, it was just an old amp, and the whole vintage amp thing didn't exist!). My own amp wasn't particularly clean sounding. It broke up pretty early, like, oh, with the volume on 8 (heh heh) and really couldn't handle a combo organ very well, even with the gigantic cab I had for it, though it sounded really good with my guitar.

My old Ampeg Reverberocket II from '66 handled my combo organ much more cleanly than the higher-wattage Bassman. I think the 'Rocket was only about 25 watts, if that. But because the Bassman sounded so good with the guitar, I preferred it and gigged it throughout college and beyond.

As near as I can tell, the DG50 is more Marshall in its tones, and I have no idea why I want one, since I already have the HXDA that I love, but that's addiction for ya. Something about these DG amps...

Anyway, it's looking like I won't be able to make a move on one until later in the year.

 

[Tahlee]

I've been dreaming of the DG 30. How do the DG 30 and DG 50 differ from each other?

 

[László]

I've been dreaming of the DG 30. How do the DG 30 and DG 50 differ from each other?

Not exactly sure of all the differences, but here's what I know:

The 30 has a pre-phase-inverter master volume. The 50 has post-phase-inverter master volume. It makes a difference in how the amp breaks up and how you set it up. The 30's PPI Master means that setting the gain, then setting the master, then going back and forth to tweak matters. I don't mind doing this, the result speaks for itself, and the 30 is an incredible amp in every way.

The 30 has 4xEL84M output tubes, the 50 has 4xEL34 output tubes, according to the manual for both amps, is also cathode biased (the HXDA is a fixed bias amp). Being cathode biased, the amp should sound interesting (compared to the fixed bias HXDA) for that reason alone. I don't know if there are differences in the tone stacks. The manual says they have the same controls, though I don't know if that means the tone stacks are the same.

The 30 has presence and cut controls on the back, and a boost level switch. The 50 doesn't. Doug Sewell's notes in the manual for both amps say that the 50 is a simpler amp to operate, because it was designed to set the gain, then the master, as is usually the case with most MV amps, and the controls don't interact as they do on the 30.

I don't even know precisely why I want one, except that I loved the tones on the demos I've heard, and I have Grissom's latest record, which is admittedly mostly DG30, but there are some sounds on it that aren't DG30, and I like those, too. I'm guessing they're 50. But I don't really have any info that says so! Could even be pedals with the 30 for all I know. So maybe I've just got a case of acquisition fever -- you know, try everything I'm really wanting before I kick the bucket!

However, I really love 50 watt amps with EL34s. Don't get me wrong, my HXDA 30 is a fantastic amp, and it has 34s, but there are times when I crave that over the top, bigger amp tone. Of course, for recording, the 30 is all I really need, so it turned out to be a smart buy.

I get some big amp vibe with my 100 Watt Lone Star of course, but it's a different tone altogether, and the PRS amps' tones have more complexity.

 

[aristotle]

I got sort of curious, so I searched on DG custom 50 specs. Here's what's on Wilcutt's product page for the DG50... So maybe the 50 isn't cathode biased? The product page on the DG30 calls out cathode biased, so it's not likely it's a cut and paste error...

Watts
50

Channels
Single

Power Tubes
EL34

Preamp Tubes
(3) 12AX7, (1) 12AT7

Output Jack Configuration
(5) with Parallel Extension Jacks

Fixed/Adjustable or Cathode Bias
Fixed Bias (Adjustable)

Covering/Fascia
Blonde Vinyl with a Cherry Stained Mahogany Fascia and Un-Tinted Salt and Pepper Grill Cloth

 

[László]

I got sort of curious, so I searched on DG custom 50 specs. Here's what's on Wilcutt's product page for the DG50... So maybe the 50 isn't cathode biased? The product page on the DG30 calls out cathode biased, so it's not likely it's a cut and paste error...

Watts
50

Channels
Single

Power Tubes
EL34

Preamp Tubes
(3) 12AX7, (1) 12AT7

Output Jack Configuration
(5) with Parallel Extension Jacks

Fixed/Adjustable or Cathode Bias
Fixed Bias (Adjustable)

Covering/Fascia
Blonde Vinyl with a Cherry Stained Mahogany Fascia and Un-Tinted Salt and Pepper Grill Cloth

The manual for the amplifier can be downloaded from the PRS site, and it says the amp is cathode biased, unless I'm misreading it; here's the cut and paste from the manual:

"The bias test jacks allow for monitoring the power tubes to see if they are all working and are matched. Each tube has its own cathode resistor, so a tube failure will not affect the bias of any other power tube. Depending on the individual tube characteristics, they should indicate a bias of +/- 35 mA for the DG Custom 30 and +/- 67 mA for the DG Custom 50."

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the differences between a fixed bias amp and a cathode biased amp is that cathode biased amps have a cathode resistor for each tube that goes between cathode and ground, as I understand it.

Is this incorrect?

 

[László]

I've been informed in another thread that the rule is: New guitar, must be get new amp.

So getting one of these will be required. At some point.

 

[bodia]

I've been informed in another thread that the rule is: New guitar, must be get new amp.

So getting one of these will be required. At some point.

Good thing I'm all over this. Good to know I followed the "rules."

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Good thing I'm all over this. Good to know I followed the "rules."

Good, my work is done here. Til next time.