DG-50 and HX/DA. Should I get both ?

[Maximum Guitarage]

I'm posting this elsewhere, but I thought you might find it interesting to check out the amp tones. I recorded it before Covid, and just finished remixing it.

It's a song I wrote/played using the HXDA for the dirty stuff and DG30 for the cleaner guitar that you hear in spots. The vocalist is the wonderful Liz Larin. Lyrics by David Barrett (One Shining Moment).

There's an acoustic track using the PRS Tonare Grand. It's barely audible, but...

There are no dirt pedals on this. Just the amps, a little delay, a wah in the solo. That's it.

https://soundcloud.com/lschefman/waves-of-blue-22

Hey brother that is good stuff ! Listened to it on the car. Great tone, punchy endge of break up leads, great gain mids and the accoustic needs to come up a bit. Soultry blues .

There is a lot to be said with getting such a ground sound and tone with a minimal setup, so much going on with less. Bravo ! I will be listening to it again on my way back

 

[László]

Hey brother that is good stuff ! Listened to it on the car. Great tone, punchy endge of break up leads, great gain mids and the accoustic needs to come up a bit. Soultry blues .

There is a lot to be said with getting such a ground sound and tone with a minimal setup, so much going on with less. Bravo ! I will be listening to it again on my way back

Thanks for the kind words! Ordinarily, I'd agree with you re: the acoustic, but this is a pretty dense mix. I wanted to feel the acoustic more than hear it, if that even makes sense. It's only in the choruses, anyhow.

Everything needs to be louder than everything else...

 

[Boogie]

I'm posting this elsewhere, but I thought you might find it interesting to check out the amp tones. I recorded it before Covid, and just finished remixing it.

It's a song I wrote/played using the HXDA for the dirty stuff and DG30 for the cleaner guitar that you hear in spots. The vocalist is the wonderful Liz Larin. Lyrics by David Barrett (One Shining Moment).

There's an acoustic track using the PRS Tonare Grand. It's barely audible, but...

There are no dirt pedals on this. Just the amps, a little delay, a wah in the solo. That's it.

https://soundcloud.com/lschefman/waves-of-blue-22

That was, as usual, excellent! Love how well the DG30 and HXDA find their own space…Jangle and gritty. Production is, well, perfect.

 

[Maximum Guitarage]

Thanks for the kind words! Ordinarily, I'd agree with you re: the acoustic, but this is a pretty dense mix. I wanted to feel the acoustic more than hear it, if that even makes sense. It's only in the choruses, anyhow.

Everything needs to be louder than everything else...

Got it ! Well then you nailed it. You just gained a follower on sound cloud.

 

[Maximum Guitarage]

Most information on the DG50 I have found, see clip above. Doug Sewell explains how it works well with how the the harmonics come in place with the 4 X EL34.

Also something to note David really shy's away from the DG50 as it is "too loud " in ALL his videos. You can even see the body language of David change once someone asks about the 50. Look David if the 50 isn't for you, it might be for others that want to play louder based on playing styles with Marshall plexi tones. I get it the DG30 is better suited for AC30 Vox styles. Why not do a good job of showcasing both and promoting both, I am fine with them being deferently sounding amps with different circuitry, both have excellent touch dynamics, why not stand on both and let the populace decide? I can also see Paul's crossed arms and frustration at 8:00 minutes as the excitement gets sucked out of the room. I have never seen amp builders choose 1 amp over the other at launch and disregard the other even if it is unintentional.David truly caused the failure of this amp. The good thing is both amps have extreme touch dynamics which is important, to me at least, catching the tone on the hands, those nuances. - how hard you strum, how hard you press on the strings/frets etc.

Recap, Honestly from all the PRS experience and Namm videos the the DG 50 was destined to fail and by David himself. There is such a shyness for this amp due to it's volume range and was not marketed properly as to where this fits in the line up or how it can be used in a live setting or studio. There are still amp makers making 50 and 100 watt amps.There is a purpose for both and we have great antenuators and good tech available today to take to the studio or stage today.

 

[Boogie]

DG can be too honest sometimes. When it’s ‘marketing time’, you put away the critical talk and focus on the benefits and he often doesn’t do that. Sure, that honesty may sell more product, but the negative honesty sinks more sales. As the owner of a 50w CAD amp I can confirm that it IS giggable if you size the cab for the venue. You can’t just crank it Willy-Nilly and think it will work out. You have to be practical and smart about amp and cab choice. DG talked in detail about that with me.

Yes, you see Paul get cross-armed when in interviews with David. He gets defensive but he never shuts him down. DG has helped them sell a lot of product, after all.

 

[László]

Got it ! Well then you nailed it. You just gained a follower on sound cloud.

You are far too kind! But I thank you for it.

 

[Maximum Guitarage]

DG can be too honest sometimes. When it’s ‘marketing time’, you put away the critical talk and focus on the benefits and he often doesn’t do that. Sure, that honesty may sell more product, but the negative honesty sinks more sales. As the owner of a 50w CAD amp I can confirm that it IS giggable if you size the cab for the venue. You can’t just crank it Willy-Nilly and think it will work out. You have to be practical and smart about amp and cab choice. DG talked in detail about that with me.

Yes, you see Paul get cross-armed when in interviews with David. He gets defensive but he never shuts him down. DG has helped them sell a lot of product, after all.

It is true, Paul has never shut DG down, just let's him do his thing. I even saw on the latest DG30 Video with Paul that is 2 years old now , Paul mentions " You have 2 models DG 30 and DG50 and people seem to like the 30 better" again DG just jumps into talking about the 30 only. I understand it is a passion project for him and catered to his personal needs , my point is others may have different needs even if the DG30 is perfect for David Grissom then great. Others may want something else, I don't like artist telling me this is the way and you need to do this. I rather choose and play what works best for me, to accumulate my own tone and sound. I have seen videos of DG getting washed out with his 30 watts from the keyboard player and drummer, if he was a tad bit louder he would have been in front of the mix instead of buried in it. It wasn't until he turned on his boost for the last 30 minutes that he was out front of the mix with raw power and force that was nice to see. I am an aggressive player, I practice on a 13 gauge accoustic and play it like a a strat. I break strings all the time. I like having something heavy to play with my hands. I really want something that can show off the nuances of the pick digs or where you pick choices such as right below the bridge or even play on the neck. Also for me I don't like DG Overdrive tones, his boost tones are great ! It could be because he was buried in the mix and it sounded like mud. I have also seen him do the OD tones on the DG30 and it is just not working for me, mud and uninspiring. Maybe the tubes are getting to "reedy" with those 4 X EL84's maxing out. So yeah I am a tad bit concerned going to the DG 30 for those reasons, would not mind having something with a little more head room on selective songs.

That is great that you received personal advice from DG, I messaged him twice and still waiting. There certainly needs to be a balance of volume and cab choices based on the venue. I am just stating maybe I don't want an AC30 style amp. I never liked the AC30, came close but returned it. Who knows maybe I am more of a Marshall guy that needs a few pedals.
SRV 1987-1990 - Marshall 200 and Dumble 100 watt Steel String Singer. Early SRV before 1987 Fender Viroverbs and Super Reverbs. I like Stevie's approach to use another amp to shape his tones. We can do that today with great amp pedals on a box.

Understood about not being willy nilly with the volume and turning everything to 10. It almost feels like this passion project is only for DG. Maybe I don't want DG tones, maybe I want a broader brush. What works for someone may not work for others.

 

[László]

I get it the DG30 is better suited for AC30 Vox styles.

Not very much, really. The DG30 isn't very AC30.

There's a little bit of jangle, and I suppose you could call that AC30, but they're completely, utterly, different amps. Even the EL84s are different: on the DG30, they're the EL84 M, which is a different tube, with different characteristics.

So if you're expecting AC tone from a DG, you're going to be surprised. Not that I think you should go DG30, or even that you'd be better off with a DG30. Just setting the record straight.

I'll upload a track I cut on the DG in the next day or so. I think you'll agree. I think it sounds more like an earlier type of amp, more Tweed, or early Gibson, etc. Just my experience with it.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I think it sounds more like an earlier type of amp, more Tweed, or early Gibson,

Yep, that's what I've heard from that amp, more than AC30. I had an AC30hx2x. The hand wired one with two Blue's. It was the 100% AC30 tone. The DG30 clips of heard where not like my AC30. Definitely more Tweed than AC30.

 

[László]

Here's the track I mentioned. I wrote this a few years back when I got my 594 Soapbar, to compare to my 594 with Humbuckers. The rhythm tracks are just Soapbar 594 >> amp. The leads are pushed with a pedal with the gain rolled off, but the output pushed, so more or less a clean boost to give the tone a bit of that compression you get with a boost into the front of an amp.

First solo is the soapy, second is the humbucker. I'm sure you'll agree this isn't really AC30 territory.

https://soundcloud.com/lschefman/messy-22

 

[Maximum Guitarage]

Here's the track I mentioned. I wrote this a few years back when I got my 594 Soapbar, to compare to my 594 with Humbuckers. The rhythm tracks are just Soapbar 594 >> amp. The leads are pushed with a pedal with the gain rolled off, but the output pushed, so more or less a clean boost to give the tone a bit of that compression you get with a boost into the front of an amp.

First solo is the soapy, second is the humbucker. I'm sure you'll agree this isn't really AC30 territory.

https://soundcloud.com/lschefman/messy-22

Ok you did mention that. Please post clip.

I understand it isn't an AC30 clone it is its own animal and sits somewhere between these amp tones the AC30, tweed , Hiwatt and even Marshall.

 

[Maximum Guitarage]

Yep, that's what I've heard from that amp, more than AC30. I had an AC30hx2x. The hand wired one with two Blue's. It was the 100% AC30 tone. The DG30 clips of heard where not like my AC30. Definitely more Tweed than AC30.

Yes , if I need to walk that back I will. Trying to make a distinction between the amps.

Would be nice for a DG50 owner to chime in, although I do not blame them for holding back as I am sure they see these posts and go " where is that 10 foot poll?".

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Yes , if I need to walk that back I will. Trying to make a distinction between the amps.

Would be nice for a DG50 owner to chime in, although I do not blame them for holding back as I am sure they see these posts and go " where is that 10 foot poll?".

I don't know how many DG50 owners there are that hang out here. Honestly, from memory, I think most of the guys here who do own, or have in the past, a DG, were most all 30s. So, most of the clips most of us have heard here or forum links to Grissom etc. usually are the 30.

That said, I find your perspective on the 50 interesting. I've never seen it as him shunning the amp, per say. Heck, maybe Boogie knows more if he's talked to him about it. But an example... I saw Paul cross his arms and never would have taken it when he did that, that he was taking exception to what DG was saying... I think he actually crossed them almost a minute before what you pointed out in the above video. But I don't claim to know his thoughts on the 50 so maybe you're right and I just never noticed it before.

Another aside though, is that with stage volumes dropping more and more, Paul keeps trying to make big amps that need to be played loud, and most of them sound GREAT, but don't sell well, and if you go to TGP and read feedback, guys are saying they don't sound as good as X so they bought X instead... and you KNOW it's because they didn't turn it up loud because in the demo's where they do, the amps sound great. And, when I play my amps, it's in a bedroom so I'm not slamming anyone, but 50 Johnny Bedroom's go on the net saying an amp doesn't sound great, etc. then THAT becomes the popular belief on it and if enough guys don't bounce back that it does sound great, and/or put up clips to prove it, then MOST guys will never know that it sounds awesome turned up.

And then there's the fact that, a guy like me gets away with playing pretty loud at home a time or two a week. If it needs to be way louder than I turn it up in order to sound good, then MOST guys aren't going to make it work at home...OR a gig, as many can't even gig that loud. I played my Archon for over an hour Friday night with the volume on 10:00 and gain at 11:00. That's pretty loud for home. It sounded great! But if I needed to hit 12:00 for that tone, I'd sell the amp. I've played it at noon and it sounds killer, but the last gig spot I did take it too I couldn't turn it up that loud and that seated 500.

That's why I believe Paul's insistence on sticking with purity of circuit and not putting a PPIV master on some of these amps had had a significant impact on sales... IMHO, YMMV, consult your physician for erections lasting over 4 hours, etc.

Edit: And, he's obviously willing to live with the consequences, because I'm sure it's not the first time he's heard that if this amp or that amp had a master, I would have bought it, but without one I can't get the tones I want at the volume I can get away with.

 

[László]

That's why I believe Paul's insistence on sticking with purity of circuit and not putting a PPIV master on some of these amps had had a significant impact on sales... IMHO, YMMV, consult your physician for erections lasting over 4 hours, etc.

I don't believe for one second that Paul Smith is driven by sales on a personal level, or designs his premium guitars or amps for people to play in their bedrooms or basements with the idea of PRS having to make a buck.

The gear he cares most about is made for the best players in the world to perform and tour with, and if the rest of us happen to like the stuff, that's great, but it's not what inspires him.

In other words, no compromises. If you want a no-compromise amp, you get one. If you want compromises, look at the SE line or go elsewhere. That's just a fact of life. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with it. I think it's commendable to have that kind of guts.

You can be about sales, and sell to the lowest common denominator. You'll sell a lot of gear. Just look at the success of modelers for proof. And Paul has his made in China amps for that.

But at heart, Paul is about perfection, and is willing to sell fewer items at a premium to people who want the best. A Hendrix amp with a MV is a compromise Paul wasn't willing to make. I say Bravo! Just f#$king BRAVO!

Paul designs stuff with (and for) people who are on top of their game. Grissom. Carlos. John Mayer. Can you blame him?

I truly understand why. Gee, would I rather have the London Symphony play my music, or perform it myself with samplers? Hmmm...let me think...

Yeah. Gimme the real deal. Except that's never gonna happen with my stuff, so hats off to Paul, it happens with his stuff!

And so what if the guy in the bedroom or local bar has to use an attenuator. So freaking what. If you buy a 3 kilobuck amp, you can spring for a freaking attenuator. The ones who won't? Not his target market.

I should also say PRS isn't alone in this. Look at the Fender hand-wired Tweed reissues, and other Tweed clones. You will NOT see a master volume.

 

[László]

Ok you did mention that. Please post clip.

I embedded the link in the post you quoted. I hope you like it!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I don't believe for one second that Paul Smith is driven by sales on a personal level, or designs his premium guitars or amps for people to play in their bedrooms or basements with the idea of PRS having to make a buck.

The gear he cares most about is made for the best players in the world to perform and tour with, and if the rest of us happen to like the stuff, that's great, but it's not what inspires him.

In other words, no compromises. If you want a no-compromise amp, you get one. If you want compromises, look at the SE line or go elsewhere. That's just a fact of life. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with it. I think it's commendable to have that kind of guts.

You can be about sales, and sell to the lowest common denominator. You'll sell a lot of gear. Just look at the success of modelers for proof. And Paul has his made in China amps for that.

But at heart, Paul is about perfection, and is willing to sell fewer items at a premium to people who want the best. A Hendrix amp with a MV is a compromise Paul wasn't willing to make. I say Bravo! Just f#$king BRAVO!

Paul designs stuff with (and for) people who are on top of their game. Grissom. Carlos. John Mayer. Can you blame him?

I truly understand why. Gee, would I rather have the London Symphony play my music, or perform it myself with samplers? Hmmm...let me think...

Yeah. Gimme the real deal. Except that's never gonna happen with my stuff, so hats off to Paul, it happens with his stuff!

And so what if the guy in the bedroom or local bar has to use an attenuator. So freaking what. If you buy a 3 kilobuck amp, you can spring for a freaking attenuator. The ones who won't? Not his target market.

I should also say PRS isn't alone in this. Look at the Fender hand-wired Tweed reissues, and other Tweed clones. You will NOT see a master volume.

Totally agree with all of this. That’s kind of what I was saying… Paul will say “If you stop buying them, I’ll stop building them” but he won’t do what he thinks as a compromise and add a master volume, that might make the amp sell great for years.

50 years ago, these amps would have sold like crazy. But more and more and more places won’t let you take 50 or 100 watt stacks on stage and open them up. And, some big name pro bands are lowering stage volumes just to save some hearing while they still have some. So yeah, I totally agree with you and I totally get what Paul is doing. But, it’s not lost on me that every time we see a demo in Paul’s studio, the amp is in the room, and the cab is a room one or two stories below that room.

When I took my Archon to that gig spot and turned it up to noon, it sounded GREAT, but the blast zone in front of the amp was significant. It’s a wide room that is not super deep. Even back at the mixer (back) my amp was really loud. Only in a loud band could I get away with playing it that loud there.

 

[László]

50 years ago, these amps would have sold like crazy. But more and more and more places won’t let you take 50 or 100 watt stacks on stage and open them up.

When I was gigging 50 years ago, there was ALWAYS conflict between bands who wanted to play loud, and club owners who wanted to sell drinks. Who can blame them? But this is nothing new at all.

One reason big amps were on stages all the time is that 50 years ago, we were not playing with such high gain. We could use our amps without maxing them out. People used fuzz boxes to create a high gain sound if that's what was desired, but we played much cleaner.

Another thing is that drummers weren't hitting as hard. Listen to old records and you'll hear a completely different style of drumming. John Bonham changed that with Zep but listen to Hendrix records, and others, and you'll see that drummers were doing different things.

Nonetheless, today there are more opportunities than ever to open up a big amp, because we have wonderful devices to control volume that weren't available 50 years ago!

I'm talking about devices like the OX that do several things, from attenuation to cab simulation using algorithms, or a variety of other types of load boxes with digital convolution cab simulations, or analog cab simulators such as the Mesa load boxes, or a plethora of high quality attenuators for running with a cabinet if that's what's desired.

With these, there's no need for a master volume on the amp - just bring a load box or attenuator.

You're already bringing $2000 worth of pedals, a spare guitar or three (which NOBODY did in the '60s), fancy gig/shmig bags, road cases that we didn't have either, and other effluvia that we'd have marveled at in 1972. So, "I can't spend 300 bucks on a cab simulator load box or an attenuator," strikes me as a mere excuse.

Today's players have wonderful opportunities to use phenomenal sounding big amps at any gig, or any studio, without even having to haul a cabinet.

Regardless, I'm OF COURSE going to get one of the HDRX amps this year, because why the hell wouldn't I want an amp that cloned Hendrix' wonderful modded Marshall?

If it's too loud for my studio, I'll attenuate it. Or I'll run a cab in my storage room, or get an OX. Or a Silent Sister.

I already have the Mesa load box, and it sounds pretty good. In any case, I see this as a golden freaking opportunity, and I intend to take PRS up on it. Real-deal, once-in-a-lifetime tone opportunities don't come along every day.

There's no way I wouldn't want to own that amp. They may not be making them that long. I'm not missing out.

 

[Boogie]

fancy gig/shmig bags…and other effluvia..

Bwahahaha!

And it’s this type of top drawer entertainment that made me get out of bed this morning. Tip-o-the-hat to Mr. Les for using enhanced vocabulary mode.

Oh, and, not surprisingly, the rest of the commentary was reflective of my viewpoint, too.

 

[shinksma]

Like many others here, I have a DG30, not a 50. I specifically sought out a 30 because it wasn't as "Marshally" as the 50 was supposed to be. And weirdly, the used market (when it was normal, pre-COVID) priced the DG50 lower than the 30, so perhaps that bore out the idea that the DG30 was a bit more unique.

I really like my DG30, great tone, great range of volume levels (it does sound best at high volume...), and it looks great too!

Oh, I also have an HXDA, and it also sounds fantastic, and the DA/HX switching allows for a nice variety of tone shaping.

I will also admit that I gig with neither. I use a Flyrig and go straight into the PA a lot of the time - it is the nature of the music my band plays. My amps are for home enjoyment and studio recording only, it appears.