Core Mira issues (Help), upgrade choices, and other unimportant OCD details

[Ironwolf]

putting my new 2008 Mira through its paces, I've now had it for 2 weeks, trying to tweak it to my preferences. Such an Interesting Guitar. I went ahead and installed the Schroeder aluminum wraparound with brass saddles, and it seemed to even out the tone, and sounds basically great.
It is capable of generating some very amazing tones, and yet it has some idiosyncratic things going on.
the power chords are so top-notch and excellent, I ripped through Jefferson starship "Jane" and say to myself that's one of my best renditions I have ever played, sounds amazing. heavy rich harmonic power chords, blaze through the solo, the neck is so fast.
so then I put it through "shine on you crazy diamond" and I start identifying concerning issues.
I mostly play that song through my PRS 594 the neck pickup is so sublime, so that's my control guitar.
The Mira is not capable of matching, the opening section. to mimic David's sound on sound, I usually hold all of the bends with sustain and vibrato for 12 beats, for example 13th fret of the B string (c) bend one step to-D and hold it for 8 seconds with vibrato, beautiful fantastic effect on the 594. I cannot do it on the Mira the note dies out on basically beat 8 or 9. the whole opening section is bending of 20 notes. and they all died early, it reminds me of my 1st made in Mexico Stratocaster 15 years ago.

so before I throw away another set of strings and put the old bridge back on thought I would check with you guys, I'm going through all of the engineering details, and design details to see if I'm missing something.
I just played "shine on" on my David Grissom DGT, I can basically bend and hold the notes for almost 4 bars,(16 beats) tells me how fantastic the DGT is. this is at moderate volume so no speaker feedback into the guitar.
so I also realized that the 2 guitars that are the high performers have jumbo frets so that's one of the physics observations perhaps the jumbo frets give that extra 2-3 seconds of sustain. also we are comparing 3 different bridge styles. I'm thinking that the angle of the string on the saddles might be important.
the saddles on the DGT do not restrict the strring when you shove it up on a 1 step bend, there is room for the strength to move in the saddle. there's no fretting out that I can see. I'm thinking that I might benefit from the John Mann bridge and saddles they look like the identical saddles that are in the 594. on an open G chord
the Mira and the 594 both seem to sustain for about 42 seconds on the tuner. so that tells me it's a really sustaining nicely, except for bending notes above the 12th fret,

am I expecting too much from the guitar and that particular wraparound design. I'm also considering
putting a 57/08 and the bridge, the Mira pickup is pickup is slightly different EQ style, in that the low strings can be somewhat bassy and muddy and the high strings can get too bright,all at the same time, so setting EQ for one set of strings causes the other set of 3 to misbehave. I feel like that's the pickups fault.

who's got their core Mira set up to perfection ? and what did you do?

I'm going to probably put the old bridge back in and verify that the noticeable sustain drop off is consistent.with different bridge setups.
but I really like the look of the Schaller signum,(anyone tried that wrap around?) and I might consider the graph tech resomax NV1 saddles which are guaranteed to maximize susstain ha ha ha, and of course the John Mann Bridge.
thanks for participating in the OCD.

 

[AP515]

You have well explained some of what makes the Mira exceptional, and that is also why you might want to leave it as it is. Why try to make the Mira perform like the 594? You have a 594 for that. Use the Mira for the songs on which it rips.

Regarding sustain, you are describing what we call "dead spots". They are locations on the fretboard that cannot sustain like the rest of the fretboard. They are more prominent on 24 fret guitars than 22 fret guitars, but they can show up there as well. If you want to prove your issue is with dead spots, put a C-clamp on the headstock (with a cloth in between to protect the finish), and the dead spot will move up or down a few frets. The change in mass moves the dead spot. Things like bridges and strings can improve them slightly, but I haven't found a way to eliminate them. For me, necks produce some extra tones. Some are wanted, others not. Wolf tones are little surprises that I love to get at the end of a solo. Dead spots are an unfortunate result of woods being natural and therefore varying substances.

 

[dogrocketp]

I hope you also got the Schroeder locking studs. That’s my go to combination on my stop tails. It helps the sustain.

 

[László]

That’s surprising. I had an ‘08 Mira, and it sustained really well. Unless it’s something obvious like setup, or the pickups being too close to the strings, or the PRS bridge working better with the guitar, I’m stumped.

 

[gush]

That’s surprising. I had an ‘08 Mira, and it sustained really well. Unless it’s something obvious like setup, or the pickups being too close to the strings, or the PRS bridge working better with the guitar, I’m stumped.

If the bass notes are too muddy and the treble notes are too bright then Les may be correct. Back that pickup down a touch and see what happens.

 

[Ironwolf]

You have well explained some of what makes the Mira exceptional, and that is also why you might want to leave it as it is. Why try to make the Mira perform like the 594? You have a 594 for that. Use the Mira for the songs on which it rips.

Regarding sustain, you are describing what we call "dead spots". They are locations on the fretboard that cannot sustain like the rest of the fretboard. They are more prominent on 24 fret guitars than 22 fret guitars, but they can show up there as well. If you want to prove your issue is with dead spots, put a C-clamp on the headstock (with a cloth in between to protect the finish), and the dead spot will move up or down a few frets. The change in mass moves the dead spot. Things like bridges and strings can improve them slightly, but I haven't found a way to eliminate them. For me, necks produce some extra tones. Some are wanted, others not. Wolf tones are little surprises that I love to get at the end of a solo. Dead spots are an unfortunate result of woods being natural and therefore varying substances.

thanks for all those ideas, very nice. thank you again.
The general overall sustain seems very very good, typical PRS, and bending notes holding till they die, around the 5 and 7 fret are actually very similar to the 594. quite good.
that's the reason I started looking more closely at the saddles.
absolutely yes I bought the locking studs, that's the thing I noticed in the original bridge it was starting to tilt a little bit, and I definitely felt like it (high E) was a little bit sitar, but that could be a placebo effect.
now that I know to look for the problem I can find it in my mind.
that did remind me that one of my 1st guitars, I took it into the Luthier, because some of the strings seemed dead, showed me that the neck pickup was almost hitting the strings when I fretted a note.
the magnetic field kills the sustain. so I've definitely lowered the pickups, that actually seems to help a tiny little bit on all fronts.& Icleaning up the EQ, but they were in pretty standard heights.

so I did a deep dive searching for past wisdom on the Mira, since there's 10 years of experience, but there has been a lot of posts about fine-tuning the instrument, tons of posts on the gear page and the PRS forum.
especially from Bodia,
17 posts from Bodia about wraparound bridges, buy a John Mann Bridge, all your problems will be solved,

before I read all the posts, I was 50-50 on the Schroeder versus the Mann Made, and greed won out,
I had both webpages open and for the Schroeder bridge I could get the next day overnight shipping. so I bought that 1st. now I'm kind of regretting that I didn't buy the Mann Made 2300
so the Schroeder is pretty good and definitely evened out the brashness of the all aluminum bridge,

I mow see I really like the way the saddles are cut on the John Mann 2300, I feel like the Schroeder bridge could be modified and that the cuts or the saddle grooves need to be improved on the Schroeder.

so after going obsessive-compulsive disorder I just ordered the mann made 2300,

however you are absolutely correct about dead spots, reminded me I had a Stratocaster a very nice American-made guitar, exactly the same position G and B string 13th fret, beautiful fantastic dead spot.
you don't notice it 90% of the time, until you need that note. I think I had a guitar 90 days before I sold it, I disclosed it to the buyer he seemed to not care. he said I can fix that.

this is very subtle only a crazy person can find and dig to this level of physics & troubleshooting, only me & somebody like Paul Reed Smith does this kind of a deep dive for absolute performance.
the DGT is blowing my mind with how perfect it is, taking out a stopwatch and comparing the sustain of every guitar note on almost every fret with analytics and statistics what a super beast of a guitar.
the larger surface contact area of strings are the main differences on the 2 high-performing guitars large string area contact, on both the saddle systems and on the jumbo frets

so I will try to improve the saddles contact with the purchase of the John Mann Bridge on order, and I'm going to check to make sure the frets are not coming loose. I might even throw some super glue on a couple of those frets. I even suppose it might be worth taking it to Gary Brawer,for a 100,000 mile checkup, put it on the PLEK machine.
it's really 95% of a perfect guitar though, I will Have to meditate on the 57/08, the mira pickups are pretty awesome.


thanks again for the ideas!!!

 

[AP515]

...I will Have to meditate on the 57/08, the mira pickups are pretty awesome.

I went the 57/08 rout on my Mira. I put the original Mira's back in. I think the thin, all mahogany body likes the Mira's better. At least to my ears.

 

[andy474x]

I've had dead spot issues with some guitars as well, have one on my S2 Semi that is right on a note that I really need for a long, sustaining solo in my band's set. Sometimes I play it on a different string, sometimes I just roll my volume up a tad to get some feedback to keep it ringing. If you really want it checked out, I think PTC has addressed these issues in the past.

 

[Rider1260]

On my Mira ( and Santana ) it took some fiddling with the neck relief and bridge height to get the upper notes to sing
I know nothing about the bridge you got BUT is it possible it has the wrong radius ? possibly 12" ( gibson ) vs 10" PRS
If I were you I would sell the bridge you got ether put the stock unit back ( Love the wrap bridge ) or go MannMade.
I felt like the sustain on my Mira was really good but it was more SG like sharper attack with the slimmer body not sure if its reasonably to expect the same sustain as a 594 or a DGT as they are both fatter necked and bodied then the Mira. If you subscribe to the more mass more sustain school of thought.
I am a fan of the Mira pickups and have them in both my DGT and SCT couldn't be happier.

 

[Boogie]

this is very subtle only a crazy person can find and dig to this level of physics & troubleshooting, only me & somebody like Paul Reed Smith does this kind of a deep dive for absolute performance.

I think you underestimate the guitar nerd-ism of your audience. The OCD police come here to set their reference benchmark.

Jumbo frets do make a difference in many ways for me, including sustain. Even my Tele neck has 6100s! The DGT is the perfect example of what big frets do to the equation.

 

[Lister]

If the bass notes are too muddy and the treble notes are too bright then Les may be correct. Back that pickup down a touch and see what happens.

After you lower the pickup, try adjusting the pole pieces to mirror the neck radius as well. I live on the neck pickup for the most part and my Mira was a tad muddy as well, but lowering the pickup and adjusting the individual poles made a huge difference to my ears.

 

[Ironwolf]

Thanks to AP515, it is dead spots.
Wow learning is occuring" and happemning now, I have tripped across a reasonbly well traveled "RABBIT HOLE" which I have not been down before.
This is the problem for sure, B and G string notes around the 12th fret die in about 2-3 seconds. Really my 1st PRS that I've seen or simply noticed this, although I've never had a 24 fret, but now that I think about it the Fender Stratocaster was probably the same issue. Probably why he (PRS) stopped making the old Mira and the new Mira is 22 frets. It is a bit of a design flaw.
I followed it down several rabbit holes, several players were very unhappy.
I think playing style is important too, some players do need the notes to sustain for 4-5 seconds On some songs, however other songs or playing styles Most full notes might be one second max , so you will never notice it's not sustaining.

I jammed the head next to the wall, definitely got 2- 3 seconds longer sustain. Pretty sure that's why mega rock stars have 15 guitars each one performs a song sustain tone speed differently and more efficiently than other guitars, the idiosyncrasies of one guitar work well on one song and may not work as well in another song. So I will just learn to only have 23 frets on the B and G string.
I just dont have a sustaining G# at the 13th.
Is it true Grover Roto-Matic locking tuners, Can replace the phase 2 locking tuner on the PRS with no new holes. heavy tuner attempt.????????
I like the guitar a little bit less now,
But it's super spectacular on the bottom half below the 12th fret. I will see if the man-made bridge helps at all, and I think I will try some extra heavy locking tuners see if that helps, although they say it just moves it around to a different fret a little bit.


Well described by the Cat Murderer.
This is a repost from topic :
Brand new S2 CU24, annoying wolftone:
This is the typical dead spot for prs 24 fretters and this is very likely an issue with the primary resonant frequency (as Terry Mcinturff refers to it) of the neck. In general this a problem with longer mahogany necked instruments. It is unlikely you will remove the dead spots (wolf tones) but you might move them around with various mods.

A direct quote from TCM off a thread at TGP:

"Dead spots on a neck on the G string at around the 12th fret area are common, especially on a double-cut guitar; neck-thru or otherwise.

Very often, the culprit is a neck resonance issue, and this has nothing to do with any setup or fret related things. Instead, it is due to the neck vibrating at a sympathetic frequency and this vibration robs the string of energy. The string drives the neck and loses energy fast.

Most who experience this can perform a simple experiment; clamp a small C clamp to the headstock and voila! problem dissapears. This is because the added mass of the clamp has raised the PRF of the neck.

The extended heel on a PRS came about in order to minimize this situation. The shorter length of carved neck had a higher PRF.

The problem CAN be very annoying. That octave G note is pretty important. Ive played many guitars which required a change in technique in order to avoid that spot.

It is less common on single-cuts, due to the fact that the neck is supported starting way down at around the 16th fret, usually. This provides for a much shorter unsupported length of neck."

and

"A good Q. The following is my opinion only.

The truss rod is involved only because it is part of the neck; I 've arrived at the conclusion that in general we cant point to the truss rod as being a primary factor.

The "dead octave G" has been a source of frustration and mystery for years. It is due to the neck resonance matching the fundamentals of that note/pitch...the neck is stealing string energy.

It is not always G string/12th fret...it can be one of the neighboring notes on that string; note as well the behavior of that same note/pitch on the B string/9th fret...it will usually quickly shift into a higher overtone series as the note decays. However, the same note/pitch on the D string/15th fret is rarely a problem. The hi E/3rd fret can sometimes behave a bit like the B, but not as much (usually).

Finally, this phenomenon is very rare on set neck single-cuts which feature neck support from the 16th fret on up.

These behaviors give us important hints. The phenomenon Im referring to has nothing to do with loose parts, frets, and the like. It is a neck resonance-related phenomenon.

The G string and to a lesser extent the B string are "driving" the neck hard enough to cause "robbing". The hi E usually is not, and the D string is fretted so high up on the neck that the resonance of the lower part of the neck is not much of an influence in this way.

If the resonance of the neck can be raised significantly, the "problem" can be reduced or eliminated. This is what happens when we experimentally shift the resonance via that C=clamp I mentioned earlier. And we have seen how PRS shortened the shaft of the neck via that extended heel, which raises the PRF over the same neck with a small heel....a clever trick that is (as in all such things wooden) not entirely fool-proof as a solution. I always thought that they were rather brave in changing that heel!

While I was at Hamer in the early '90's I experimented with a group of approx 20 guitars. all of which exhibited this phenomenon. I was hopeful that using heavy tuners ala Rotomatics would be a solution, but on balance this was not enough. Ive lost my notes from back then but I seem to recall a slight improvement on maybe 3 guitars.

Aside from the use of something like that Fathead plate (with which I have zero experience but, it should work) I am sorry to report that there does not seem to be anything that can be done post-build in order to improve the situation....if the prob on any given guitar is related to neck resonance."

#10CatStrangler, Jul 19, 2015

 

[AP515]

Couple of things.

For me, a Wolftone and a dead spot are not the same thing. A wolftone is that superb harmonic thing that happens on select notes when you are sustaining them. It decays into a tasty harmonic that you have to hear to understand. A dead spot just decays and you wonder where it went.

Like has been said above, you can just play the note on another string and get your sustain back. It isn't all that hard to avoid the offending note unless speed is required. I'm not a shredder. I can move around and no one is the wiser.

It happens on 22 fretters too, just seems to be more often on 24's. I've got a MIM Strat that has 21 frets and a dead spot.

Crank up the gain on a dimed 100 watt Marshall and stand in front of the 4x12 cab and you won't have a dead spot anymore, (a la Gary Moore).

 

[Ironwolf]

UPDATE: I've received the John Mann 2300 bridge,

it's a beautiful piece of kit, and the saddles deep cuts and large surface area contact with the strings work exceptionally. improved sustain all the way around every fret.
the problem is not completely solved. but it's improved so substantially that I can essentially ignore it.
I found a really good college physics experiment (thesis) explaining why guitars have the dead spot.. including the experimental data.
the conductance of neck wood was meassured by adding energy to the neck by a vibrator and measureing the energy lost in the neck.
coincides with the measured sustain time (T30) time to lose 30 decibels in volume. it's a complicated paper I had to read it 10 times but it's very good, I do have a PhD in chemistry so I can interpret the physics. slowly.
so my G string 13th fret now sustains quite well for 5 seconds. was 3. if I push the neck sideways pressurizing the neck, I can get an extra 2 seconds by stress.
my open strings are much better than the Gibson Explorer he used, I can get about 33 seconds with the open wound strings, fretted notes definitely die faster. 5 to 12 seconds

so the core Mira is rocking superbly, played the guitar all dang day.
I'll include a link to the paper for super nerds,
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=44678

 

[bodia]

UPDATE: I've received the John Mann 2300 bridge,

it's a beautiful piece of kit, and the saddles deep cuts and large surface area contact with the strings work exceptionally. improved sustain all the way around every fret.
the problem is not completely solved. but it's improved so substantially that I can essentially ignore it.
I found a really good college physics experiment (thesis) explaining why guitars have the dead spot.. including the experimental data.
the conductance of neck wood was meassured by adding energy to the neck by a vibrator and measureing the energy lost in the neck.
coincides with the measured sustain time (T30) time to lose 30 decibels in volume. it's a complicated paper I had to read it 10 times but it's very good, I do have a PhD in chemistry so I can interpret the physics. slowly.
so my G string 13th fret now sustains quite well for 5 seconds. was 3. if I push the neck sideways pressurizing the neck, I can get an extra 2 seconds by stress.
my open strings are much better than the Gibson Explorer he used, I can get about 33 seconds with the open wound strings, fretted notes definitely die faster. 5 to 12 seconds

so the core Mira is rocking superbly, played the guitar all dang day.
I'll include a link to the paper for super nerds,
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=44678

Very cool!

 

[pac90]

Great thread.

I got a bit paranoid and tested my S2 mira, no dead spots im happy to say. It has the newer style adjustable bridge, if that helped, looks like the mannn one

 

[Ironwolf]

Great thread.

I got a bit paranoid and tested my S2 mira, no dead spots im happy to say. It has the newer style adjustable bridge, if that helped, looks like the mannn one

that's good to hear, the 22 frets size (shorter neck) especially on PRS's seems to not have the harmonic resonance cancellation spot, to any important degree.
coupled with those fat brass saddles will be a tone machine.

 

[pac90]

So DTR spurred me into getting a long coveted core mira, and I had this thread in mind, so....comparing S2 and core..

I had both setup as per PRS specs, body shapes are really similar, dimensionally, just the core has slightly different top carve and of course 24fret neck

With both with stock pickups, core is a bit brighter with the neck position as you'd expect. Similar character sound but different Actually S2 has stonking sustain around 15 to 17th frets, more than core with same matchless amp model. Couldnt find any 'dead spots' on either

So S2 miras are/were, pretty damn good is my unscientific conclusion

Both are bargains

 

[Bowtiefanatc]

Throw some 57/08's in that Mira Game Changers!

 

[pac90]

They are mia at the moment on usual places, but going to try my 85/15 set in there, eventually