DISTORT6
NJ Devil
<yawn> Not enough sleep, right?
Oh, if you would like to continue this lovely conversation, feel free to message me.
Apologies to Ahazz.
Hope some of my experiences can help you!
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Considering a return to tubes...
- Thread starter Aahzz
- Start date
Oh, if you would like to continue this lovely conversation, feel free to message me.
Apologies to Ahazz.
Hope some of my experiences can help you!
CandidPicker
Tone Matters. Use It Well.
<yawn> Not enough sleep, right?
Oh, if you would like to continue this lovely conversation, feel free to message me.
Apologies to Ahazz.
Hope some of my experiences can help you!
No need. Sometimes writing interesting solutions can be a chore until someone provides good ideas. Thanks for your experience.
Aahzz
Bluebeard Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2012
- Messages
- 6,444
<yawn> Not enough sleep, right?
Oh, if you would like to continue this lovely conversation, feel free to message me.
Apologies to Ahazz.
Hope some of my experiences can help you!
No apology needed
DISTORT6
NJ Devil
Still going…
D
Deleted member 5962
Guest
I have one with the thick framed black glasses and the banana nose, and you are welcome to borrow it, but I'm relatively certain that it did not come with instructions. I think they just figured you put them on and then just go with the flow.
I'm joking. See... people trying to joke with you is not being contentious. So even if you can't juggle clown balls,
eek you can wear the banana nose glasses if you just try. You've got to want it, CP! We can't all just be funny without trying. To some of us, it comes naturally. To others, the struggle is real.
CandidPicker
Tone Matters. Use It Well.
I have one with the thick framed black glasses and the banana nose, and you are welcome to borrow it, but I'm relatively certain that it did not come with instructions. I think they just figured you put them on and then just go with the flow.
I'm joking. See... people trying to joke with you is not being contentious. So even if you can't juggle clown balls,
You were doing fine up until the video.
DTR, you'll need to accept that my life has been one huge comedy of errors when I was much younger; me being the brunt of the jokes. It got to a point where tireless pestering didn't stop, even though many times over, the message was made clear. Later in life, I chose to not become the abuser who had been emotionally abused as a teen. There are times when I tell myself, "I should defend myself more often," but then realize humor works better to diffuse anger and hostility. Since it's inappropriate to use one's fists on people who bug you ad nauseum, I use my brains and humor.
My. usual issue is that my chronic age-related illness (furniture disease) prevents me from living life the way I'd like. (What's furniture disease? My chest is falling into my drawers.)
Be well, and take care of yourself.
D
Deleted member 5962
Guest
You were doing fine up until the video.
CP, if you've seen the movie, that was the funniest part of the post. I say how funny I am and how naturally humor comes to me, then post a video of the UNfunniest man ever (again, you have to have seen the movie to get that). I thought it was rather clever, but then we all know I'm easily amused.
And please get this, which I've been trying to tell you for a couple years now. Nobody here is picking on you or bullying you! We're joking with you like "one of the guys." If I say something goofy, I expect someone to take a jab. It's not mean spirited, it's what buddies do. I've told you this 50 times: If I DON'T tease you, that's when you know I don't consider you a buddy. And I never bully or tease meanly. At least, never with a mean spirit.
CandidPicker
Tone Matters. Use It Well.
DTR, your sentiments are appreciated.
Please remember that teasing and bullying are closely related, and it's a fine line between the two. While I appreciate the humor, there is nothing to be gained when bullying occurs, except the feeling that the bully has dominated his opponent and has bragging rights, or the recipient feeling badly or inferior in some way.
In my instance, when I was younger, I was only 4' 7" tall and 120 lbs. up until my senior year in high school. You can imagine how that played out in school or in gym class. Because of my meager stature, I was the brunt of many "shrimp" and "little kid" jokes. Nothing I could have done would have changed my youth, so there were many times when the hurt was real.
Since high school, I've gained a foot in height, and more than my fair share in weight. One thing I did learn early on was, there are some things you just shouldn't make fun of: a person's height, their size, the way they speak, their color, where they're from, the clothes they wear, who their parents are, who their friends are, their beliefs.
If we can agree to not poke fun at these things, because they are what bullies often choose as their targets, we can be friends. Let it be known that I am not adverse to humor, I am just cautious regards stepping over the line that separates good-natured teasing from bullying.
Just as long as we don't venture into a$$hat territory, we're good. (Last time some of us tried that, we got our a$$hats handed to us.).
If you're OK with that, we're good. Have at thee, McDuff.
Tone-y
New Member
If you want Marshall sounds also consider something like the bluguitar amp 1. I've just got one and it's pretty good. You've basically got a jtm45/plexi, a jcm800, and some kind of hot rodded Marshall (bogner, SLO) and a pretty decent clean channel that can go from Tweedy to silver face. 100 watts but can be set to 50 watts, and with midi commands could even be dialed in lower. Has the advantages of universal power (can accept voltages from all countries), doesn't need a speaker load (can run through just headphones, frfr or IRs via some kind of DI/IR loader) and you don't have to worry about replacing expensive valves (though it does have one in it).
The only real downside I can mention is that the gain control had a hard wired bright cap in it meaning as you turn down the brighter it gets. There are ways around this, a low gain mode so you can keep the dial up reducing the bright cap influence and a custom gain range via midi so you can crank the gain removing the bright cap, and reduce the amount of gain via midi. But that's a bit of a pain and not an option if you don't have the extra gear. If you like plenty of gain though it's not a problem at all.
For me, it isn't the surfeit of options that makes me choose tubes for projects I work on.
I often use amp models when writing parts that I'll later record with a real amp, and in those cases, options aren't a bad thing. And sure, modelers provide good tone, no doubt good enough for lots of folks. They also offer the gigging musician light weight, which is extremely important if you have to pay for cartage, and convenient if you're just gigging the local club. Especially if you're past a 'certain age'.
Those are all pluses. If I played out, I'd certainly have a modeler to use on days when I just can't schlep an amp around, which would be...gosh, lotsa days!
My issue with modelers is with sound quality and feel. It goes no further than that. If those issues aren't bothersome, then sure, modelers are a viable alternative to amps.
For some of us, tube rolling and maintenance are among the interesting things about tube amps. The cost is relatively minimal, even with NOS ('relatively' being different for everyone, and there are times I too haven't gone NOS due to the high cost of tubes I want - for example, when I recently bought the Telefunken 6L6s). But in truth, that's not relevant to my decision to use tube amps on projects.
Like it or not, admit it ir not, a tube amp does things a modeler doesn't do. Lots of pros tour with modelers, but won't record with one. There are reasons for that - at least, the reasons are important to some players, among whom I am one.
Bottom line, if a modeler works for a player, by all means, go in that direction. I can't criticize the choice (though I do like to kid around about modelers and tease folks about their choices, but don't take that too seriously).
I'm probably in the minority in my needs: I need 4-5 flavors of amp on hand for my work, but most of my recording is done with three basic tones: Tweed, Black Panel, and Plexi. I've put together a rig that has the amps that work for me in each direction, amounting to 4 amps (I have those three plus a blend of tweed, Vox and Hiwatt in the DG30). At some point I'll invest in a mid '60s vintage AC30. Maybe.
What I don't need are a bunch of different flavors of Plexi, a bunch of different flavors of Black Panel, a bunch of different Tweeds, etc. It's just not necessary. But that's not why I'm not interested in modelers except as scratch pads.
However, I truly don't need dozens, hundreds or thousands of amp models. I can't imagine why anyone would, but I'm only me. Other people have different needs.
RickP
Established 1960, Still Not Dead
A lot of the discussion that has been shared throughout this thread reminds me that, for all of our perceived differences, we are not as divergent as we often think. Discussions of old/new/my/your tones are personal and sensitive to being questioned, but discussion is like counseling… both helps you understand why you think things, and lets you know the world is bigger than your front porch.
In the end, the tried and true remain so, analog or modeled, in much the same way as a grand piano sounds like a grand piano and that’s just what you want, even though that sound has been “done to death.” Why? Because it sounds good! It’s interesting how many people who are chasing their “own tone” end up with a Marshall and some pedals, a Fender and some pedals, a Vox and some pedals, a Boogie and… you get the point: the most used combinations in modern music history. And the most used amps in modelers, too!
We’re the combination of influence and inspiration, rules and exploration. We argue points to the finest line, while speaking the same musician’s language.
I love being a musician!
In the end, the tried and true remain so, analog or modeled, in much the same way as a grand piano sounds like a grand piano and that’s just what you want, even though that sound has been “done to death.” Why? Because it sounds good! It’s interesting how many people who are chasing their “own tone” end up with a Marshall and some pedals, a Fender and some pedals, a Vox and some pedals, a Boogie and… you get the point: the most used combinations in modern music history. And the most used amps in modelers, too!
We’re the combination of influence and inspiration, rules and exploration. We argue points to the finest line, while speaking the same musician’s language.
I love being a musician!
CandidPicker
Tone Matters. Use It Well.
For me, it isn't the surfeit of options that makes me choose tubes for projects I work on.
I often use amp models when writing parts that I'll later record with a real amp, and in those cases, options aren't a bad thing. And sure, modelers provide good tone, no doubt good enough for lots of folks. They also offer the gigging musician light weight, which is extremely important if you have to pay for cartage, and convenient if you're just gigging the local club. Especially if you're past a 'certain age'.
Those are all pluses. If I played out, I'd certainly have a modeler to use on days when I just can't schlep an amp around, which would be...gosh, lotsa days!
What does the surfeit say?
There is that. I'm getting up there in years myself, and will be just a middle-aged 63 this year. One basic reason I chose a move toward modelers was not for reason of a mid-life crisis, it was for the sake of sparing my back and shoulders! The days when I could sling a hefty LP became a struggle of paying the price after exercise, and more than a fair share of recovery time was often needed when I'd "overdone it" at open-mic gigs.
Gotta say that the beauty and simplicity of a good modeler is that given enough time to check out the amp library, you will find at least one, if not many amps that will do the job for you and reward you when you take the time to get to know how to dial in the tones with Fractal's computer editing software.
My personal feeling is that many times people take the approach of just "looking for something" and "trying to get it to work out for you." The reality is much more involved, and involves a "cultivating process," much the same way a gardener prepares the soil and plants seeds, watering them, weeding them, hoping they'll bear fruit someday. We all hold these 2 mindsets dear to us, but some choose to just go on "looking," while never "cultivating..."
You'll forgive the long-winded response, but I did some research, and found that there are 189 various amp model types, and 289 various amp models comprising the amp types. Not to mention the numerous cab model types with various speaker types (1024 each in banks 1 & 2) with mic models and placements. Is that all excessive? Yes, I agree that it would take years of trying out each amp model with individual cabs to fully appreciate the benefits of owning an entire amp library like Fractal's. The combinations and physical logistics are mind-boggling.
I truly believe no one wishes to spend more time than necessary of creating and dialing in good tone. Plug 'n' play guys aside, we all just would like to be able to plug in and turn up, then play. Perhaps part of the musicianship involved with Fractal is that it's more than just a unit with navigational knobs and buttons. The vast wealth of being able to tweak your amp, effects, and cab settings to your heart's content is what makes the unit a joy to work with, once you've learned HOW to set up and work with your unit. That aside, perhaps the selling point of a good modeler is that the unit can replicate the sound you hear in you own head, and that sound becomes yours once you've found the essential parts that put together make up the whole.
Gotta admit, that is indeed an insightful thought. It's quite elevating to realize that we step through that portal each day, and return to it each time we finish with our day's work. If only what we also watched at night wasn't a continuous reflection of our doorsteps and what occurs there each evening, we might all rest easier at night.
My personal feeling is that somewhere in the flow of time, we can find solutions to our problems. We seldom know what we are looking for, just that we are looking for information, much like the great philosophers of old thirsted for knowledge. We are by nature a highly inquisitive race of humans, and we question almost everything we do not fully understand.
That being said, I was reviewing the FM3's amp library and chanced upon an amp model that I used to own several years back...a Fuchs ODS 50W head. Now don't get me wrong, when I saw this, I realized the reason why the FM3 was purchased originally: It was so I could own virtually every previous amp model or type I'd ever owned. And last night I took some time and dialed in several scenes with the Fuchs. I've not heard or played through them yet, but I can tell you, my Fuchs ODS 50W was THE amp I should never have sold those several years ago. And now, I can safely say I can relive my younger days because of the Fractal, without needing to spend umpteen thousands of dollars chasing physical amps. The FM3 virtually provides the same tones, for far less than what I'd ever need to spend in order to relive my formative guitar years. I wipe away a tear of joy.
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Tucson Thump
Mint Heavy Relic
Superb post!
I've got a handful of tube amps that sound good to me. They're easy to dial in, and I'm more than happy with their handful of tones.
I must be very easy to please.
There’s the wisdom of the day! Regardless of how you assail your audiences’ ears, if you step on the sonic space of others, they won’t know it’s you. Hearing you over others in the monitors is a different challenge. Separate FOH from monitor mix in your head and get a buddy/sound person to dial in the mix for you. Situate yourself on opposite sides of the stage from the other guitarist so your ears have a little more “me” space.
In the mix, no one hears your cab’s bass.
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CandidPicker
Tone Matters. Use It Well.
I've got a handful of tube amps that sound good to me. They're easy to dial in, and I'm more than happy with their handful of tones.
I must be very easy to please.
Les, TBH, you're an old hand when it comes to music. The kind that walks you through life and guides you in ways we can't begin to describe. For that, we thank you.
But I should mention that listeners hear the cab's bass in a negative way if it creates mud, obscures the bass player's notes, can't hear the kick drum, etc.
Lots of guitar players are a bit obsessed with bottom end. Yet electric guitars and amps are designed to work in a band context. Ideally, each instrument in a band needs to have its place in the sonic spectrum. Guitar works its magic in the midrange and upper frequencies. The mud does its worst when you reach around 200 Hz, or below, but mud can exist at frequencies as high as 250 Hz, the transition point from bass to low midrange.
In a mix, I often find it necessary to cut some bottom end from the guitar to make room for bass instruments. It clarifies a mix and generally makes things less muddy. When I set up my pedalboard and amps, I'll often use an EQ pedal with a low cut filter set to cut frequencies below 100-150 Hz, where the worst of the mud lives. A side benefit is reducing bottom end overload on the mics.
It's rare that experienced session players I bring in set their gear up with too much bass, because they understand how the instrument works in a mix.
Perhaps the players who spend most of their playing time alone get used to setting up with lots of bass, which makes sense if you're playing solo, but when they get with the band, doesn't work so well.
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dmatthews
Dave's not here
Yup.
In our case with a 2 guitar cover band I make sure my rig sounds different from the lead player's rig.
Even to the point that if we're both playing chords I'll play a more "accentish" role and if he's on granny chords I'll go barre, and vice versa.
Anything to avoid us both strumming the same pattern in the same positions with similar rigs. Even if you're both heard it's sonically boring.
Excellent point! I do the same thing when recording and layering in guitar sounds, though sometimes I'll double a rhythm part and pan each take hard left and right to give the thing more of a sense of space, and envelop the listener.
However, even then I'll use a different guitar and amp, so there's some variety of texture.
dmatthews
Dave's not here
Exactly!
