CITES Appendix II

Alnus Rubra

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I asked Sweetwater sales rep exactly this question, that in a batch shipment there must be a list of guitars it contains by serial numbers so its possible to verify that the guitars are those they are supposed to be, here is the answer from sweetwater:

Sweetwater rep:
No, it is a single document for the entirety of the shipment. And it would only apply for import not export. For export, there would need to be a document for each individual guitar. Manufacturers are not required to provide that as they are only importing the instrument into the country, and we as a dealer are not to ship outside of our country unless there were some extenuating circumstances. But even in those cases, we do not have and cannot obtain the proper documentation for individual instruments.

Now is it not odd that they can import like that? that they(customs) cant identify the content of a shipment, basically the document states that "the content of this shipment is within regulation, now **** off" it seems so unprofessional when they are so strict with export.
Sucks!

The same must apply for guitars imported into UK!

Maybe consider a supplier in EU?
 

an0656

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I’m all in favour of protecting endangered species, however creating a blanket ban of import/export, without forethought regarding musical instruments was, in my opinion short sighted.

I hope someone with a voice is able to sort this mess out!:mad:

@Alnus Rubra Have you read this article? https://www.npr.org/2017/11/30/566927001/the-tree-that-rocked-the-music-industry

it contains a quote from John Scanlon, the secretary-general of the CITES convention, and Craig Hoover who manages the treaty for the United States at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service:


Even John Scanlon, the secretary-general of the CITES convention, concedes the regulations may have gone too far.

"Basically, this all came out of a political compromise," he said.

We might have gone from one side to the other, and we need to get the balance right.

Scanlon said some countries were reluctant to regulate raw timber only, and exempt finished consumer goods like musical instruments. That's because traffickers had used that as a loophole in the past by minimally processing raw materials and passing them off as finished products.

"I think in closing that loophole, it might have been closed a little bit too tight, so we might have gone from one side to the other, and we need to get the balance right."

Craig Hoover, who manages the treaty for the United States at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, struck a similar tone.

"I think the question of whether we're regulating more than we need to is really the one that's on the table for us right now," Hoover said. "And we need to examine whether or not there are things that we can let go, in terms of CITES controls, and still achieve the conservation results we want to achieve. So, I don't think we have come to the conclusion that we got it exactly right."

It seems like they are aware that they went to far, just because China imports all the rosewood in the world a guitar fretboards should not be banned,

yes i probably will buy one with ebony fretboard from europe, or rosewood from norway since the quilted at sweetwater only has rosewood for now, only reason i tried to buy from sweetwater was that they have quilted tops that looks like they could be on a private stock,
 

an0656

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There will be a CITES meeting in july, maybe some new after that.

20-26 July: Twenty-fourth meeting of the Plants Committee, Geneva, Switzerland
 
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an0656

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yeah that where I found the one with ebony, thought it was england first!
 

Tonart

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I asked Sweetwater sales rep exactly this question, that in a batch shipment there must be a list of guitars it contains by serial numbers so its possible to verify that the guitars are those they are supposed to be, here is the answer from sweetwater:

Sweetwater rep:
No, it is a single document for the entirety of the shipment. And it would only apply for import not export. For export, there would need to be a document for each individual guitar. Manufacturers are not required to provide that as they are only importing the instrument into the country, and we as a dealer are not to ship outside of our country unless there were some extenuating circumstances. But even in those cases, we do not have and cannot obtain the proper documentation for individual instruments.

Now is it not odd that they can import like that? that they(customs) cant identify the content of a shipment, basically the document states that "the content of this shipment is within regulation, now **** off" it seems so unprofessional when they are so strict with export.
If I remember correctly, CITES appendix II (which rosewood falls under) is an export oriented regulation, meaning an export permit is mandated but import permit is not. Some countries add an import permit on top of what CITES mandates, but I remember reading from the FWS webpage that US customs only require to see an export permit for incoming rosewood. It does not require an import permit filed by the US recipient.

Perhaps that’s the reason.

The export permit itself must have a way of identifying individual guitars to the permit, be it a batch permit or individual permits.

It’s highly unlikely Sweetwater would ask for a copy of the export permit from whoever exported the guitars.
 

Tonart

Tone of the Art......or is that backwards?
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Hopefully some common sense decisions will be made!
I believe the music industry is trying to convince CITES to apply the regulations only to raw timber and not finished musical instruments. Makes sense to me.

Did you know that pernambuco is listed in Appendix II, yet for pernambuco the regulation only applies to raw wood and not to finished articles like pernambuco bows? I read that in this very forum somewhere; can’t remember which thread.

So why is finished product okay for pernambuco but not rosewood, when pernambuco is arguably more threatened? Because the symphony / orchestra / classical music world has fans in high places, I would guess. It also did not escape me that violin and cello fingerboards are predominantly made of ebony and not rosewood, so the rosewood regulation affects the classical music world less than the guitar world.

I guess we should have learnt the violin instead, guys.
 
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Egads

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I'm in the process of having an acoustic guitar built in Switzerland shipped to me in the US. I commissioned the guitar as a tribute to my father who passed away a year ago last week. The back, sides, bridge, and the fingerboards on three separate necks are Rosewood (dalbergia latifolia).

This is the builder's first exported Rosewood guitar since Rosewood was added to CITES Appendix II. He applied for and received a re-export permit from the Swiss government.

Then, I started trying to figure out my side of the process.

I spent a ton of time on the USDA/APHIS site trying to dig through lots of lingo and seemingly contradictory info on CITES and the Lacey Act. I ended placing three separate phone calls to APHIS...and got three different explanations and instructions!

I finally had an email exchange with Dr. John Veremis, the APHIS national CITES Coordinator and Parul Patel, the Lacey Act Program/Policy Lead at APHIS. Mr Patel confirmed that there is no need to provide any declarations or permits for a guitar with dalbergia latifolia purchased for personal use (this is an "informal entry," not as a business, which would require a "formal entry.") for the Lacey Act. Dr. Veremis has stated that there is not need to apply for any permits related to CITES policy for the same.

So, the TL;DR summary is that experts in CITES and Lacey at the agency responsible for both policies have said that for personal purchases, it's business as usual. This may change, as Lacey may start being enforced for all entries (yeah, how would that work?!?!).

I'll let you know how my journey turns out.
 

Guitarsan

"I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV
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I'm in the process of having an acoustic guitar built in Switzerland shipped to me in the US. I commissioned the guitar as a tribute to my father who passed away a year ago last week. The back, sides, bridge, and the fingerboards on three separate necks are Rosewood (dalbergia latifolia).

This is the builder's first exported Rosewood guitar since Rosewood was added to CITES Appendix II. He applied for and received a re-export permit from the Swiss government.

Then, I started trying to figure out my side of the process.

I spent a ton of time on the USDA/APHIS site trying to dig through lots of lingo and seemingly contradictory info on CITES and the Lacey Act. I ended placing three separate phone calls to APHIS...and got three different explanations and instructions!

I finally had an email exchange with Dr. John Veremis, the APHIS national CITES Coordinator and Parul Patel, the Lacey Act Program/Policy Lead at APHIS. Mr Patel confirmed that there is no need to provide any declarations or permits for a guitar with dalbergia latifolia purchased for personal use (this is an "informal entry," not as a business, which would require a "formal entry.") for the Lacey Act. Dr. Veremis has stated that there is not need to apply for any permits related to CITES policy for the same.

So, the TL;DR summary is that experts in CITES and Lacey at the agency responsible for both policies have said that for personal purchases, it's business as usual. This may change, as Lacey may start being enforced for all entries (yeah, how would that work?!?!).

I'll let you know how my journey turns out.

I like your strategy, keep asking until you get an answer in your favor! Seriously, as you can read above in this thread, I've already lived this. I think you're alright because the builder has applied for a re-export permit from Switzerland. Meaning he's asked the Switzerland government to certify the finished guitar is CITES compliant. Make sure he sends that paperwork with the guitar to you. You're expecting to pay duties on this, right? And that's another can of worms...
 

Guitarsan

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There will be a CITES meeting in july, maybe some new after that.

20-26 July: Twenty-fourth meeting of the Plants Committee, Geneva, Switzerland

I just finished listening to a Fretboard Journal podcast (available free on iTunes, interview was with Bob Taylor of Taylor guitars.) Among the topics Bob covered was CITES regulations. Bottom line is he referred to this upcoming meeting and said they'd be pushing to get CITES to agree that their regs DO NOT apply to finished guitars for Rosewood, etc. (Brazilian would remain the exception). Actually Mahogany has been on CITES for some time, and finished goods like guitars made of it are excluded from any regulations! So why they didn't do this for guitars with Rosewood is beyond me.

By the way, things move slowly, so he implied it would be another year or more even if they agreed before this made it into the regulations.
 

Egads

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Well, my guitar made it to the USA. It was slightly damaged by Swiss Customs on the export inspection, but there were no issues with having it shipped.

I hope the future discussions clarify the process. Even clarification on the consumer end would be beneficial.
 

shinksma

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Well, my guitar made it to the USA. It was slightly damaged by Swiss Customs on the export inspection, but there were no issues with having it shipped.

I hope the future discussions clarify the process. Even clarification on the consumer end would be beneficial.
I hope there was just a slight damage. Enjoy your new guitar!
Yes, please explain "slightly damaged"??
 

ThePanda

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Would it be possible to retroactively get a CITES for rosewood on a guitar I bought in 2005? Would this be a problem going forward if I want to travel with it?
 

11top

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Would it be possible to retroactively get a CITES for rosewood on a guitar I bought in 2005? Would this be a problem going forward if I want to travel with it?

What kind of rosewood? I believe that IRW has restrictions lifted, but not Brazilian.

I agree with Dave, but I will say getting CITES documentation on an existing instrument is not easy. I tried once and gave up after a fair amount of research and phone calls.
 
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