CITES Appendix II

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by [email protected], Dec 9, 2016.

  1. Alnus Rubra

    Alnus Rubra Loving nature’s wonders

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    Sucks!

    The same must apply for guitars imported into UK!

    Maybe consider a supplier in EU?
     
  2. an0656

    an0656 New Member

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    @Alnus Rubra Have you read this article? https://www.npr.org/2017/11/30/566927001/the-tree-that-rocked-the-music-industry

    it contains a quote from John Scanlon, the secretary-general of the CITES convention, and Craig Hoover who manages the treaty for the United States at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service:


    Even John Scanlon, the secretary-general of the CITES convention, concedes the regulations may have gone too far.

    "Basically, this all came out of a political compromise," he said.

    We might have gone from one side to the other, and we need to get the balance right.

    Scanlon said some countries were reluctant to regulate raw timber only, and exempt finished consumer goods like musical instruments. That's because traffickers had used that as a loophole in the past by minimally processing raw materials and passing them off as finished products.

    "I think in closing that loophole, it might have been closed a little bit too tight, so we might have gone from one side to the other, and we need to get the balance right."

    Craig Hoover, who manages the treaty for the United States at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, struck a similar tone.

    "I think the question of whether we're regulating more than we need to is really the one that's on the table for us right now," Hoover said. "And we need to examine whether or not there are things that we can let go, in terms of CITES controls, and still achieve the conservation results we want to achieve. So, I don't think we have come to the conclusion that we got it exactly right."

    It seems like they are aware that they went to far, just because China imports all the rosewood in the world a guitar fretboards should not be banned,

    yes i probably will buy one with ebony fretboard from europe, or rosewood from norway since the quilted at sweetwater only has rosewood for now, only reason i tried to buy from sweetwater was that they have quilted tops that looks like they could be on a private stock,
     
  3. an0656

    an0656 New Member

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    There will be a CITES meeting in july, maybe some new after that.

    20-26 July: Twenty-fourth meeting of the Plants Committee, Geneva, Switzerland
     
    JJJ likes this.
  4. Alnus Rubra

    Alnus Rubra Loving nature’s wonders

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    Maybe Thomann could help you?
     
  5. an0656

    an0656 New Member

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    yeah that where I found the one with ebony, thought it was england first!
     
  6. Alnus Rubra

    Alnus Rubra Loving nature’s wonders

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    Hopefully some common sense decisions will be made!
     
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  7. Alnus Rubra

    Alnus Rubra Loving nature’s wonders

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    Astrings.co.uk have a 30th anniversary (quilt top) in stock. You could see if they are able to send it to you!
     
  8. Tonart

    Tonart Tone of the Art......or is that backwards?

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    If I remember correctly, CITES appendix II (which rosewood falls under) is an export oriented regulation, meaning an export permit is mandated but import permit is not. Some countries add an import permit on top of what CITES mandates, but I remember reading from the FWS webpage that US customs only require to see an export permit for incoming rosewood. It does not require an import permit filed by the US recipient.

    Perhaps that’s the reason.

    The export permit itself must have a way of identifying individual guitars to the permit, be it a batch permit or individual permits.

    It’s highly unlikely Sweetwater would ask for a copy of the export permit from whoever exported the guitars.
     
  9. Tonart

    Tonart Tone of the Art......or is that backwards?

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    I believe the music industry is trying to convince CITES to apply the regulations only to raw timber and not finished musical instruments. Makes sense to me.

    Did you know that pernambuco is listed in Appendix II, yet for pernambuco the regulation only applies to raw wood and not to finished articles like pernambuco bows? I read that in this very forum somewhere; can’t remember which thread.

    So why is finished product okay for pernambuco but not rosewood, when pernambuco is arguably more threatened? Because the symphony / orchestra / classical music world has fans in high places, I would guess. It also did not escape me that violin and cello fingerboards are predominantly made of ebony and not rosewood, so the rosewood regulation affects the classical music world less than the guitar world.

    I guess we should have learnt the violin instead, guys.
     
    #89 Tonart, Mar 15, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  10. Egads

    Egads Happy

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    I'm in the process of having an acoustic guitar built in Switzerland shipped to me in the US. I commissioned the guitar as a tribute to my father who passed away a year ago last week. The back, sides, bridge, and the fingerboards on three separate necks are Rosewood (dalbergia latifolia).

    This is the builder's first exported Rosewood guitar since Rosewood was added to CITES Appendix II. He applied for and received a re-export permit from the Swiss government.

    Then, I started trying to figure out my side of the process.

    I spent a ton of time on the USDA/APHIS site trying to dig through lots of lingo and seemingly contradictory info on CITES and the Lacey Act. I ended placing three separate phone calls to APHIS...and got three different explanations and instructions!

    I finally had an email exchange with Dr. John Veremis, the APHIS national CITES Coordinator and Parul Patel, the Lacey Act Program/Policy Lead at APHIS. Mr Patel confirmed that there is no need to provide any declarations or permits for a guitar with dalbergia latifolia purchased for personal use (this is an "informal entry," not as a business, which would require a "formal entry.") for the Lacey Act. Dr. Veremis has stated that there is not need to apply for any permits related to CITES policy for the same.

    So, the TL;DR summary is that experts in CITES and Lacey at the agency responsible for both policies have said that for personal purchases, it's business as usual. This may change, as Lacey may start being enforced for all entries (yeah, how would that work?!?!).

    I'll let you know how my journey turns out.
     
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  11. Guitarsan

    Guitarsan "I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV

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    I like your strategy, keep asking until you get an answer in your favor! Seriously, as you can read above in this thread, I've already lived this. I think you're alright because the builder has applied for a re-export permit from Switzerland. Meaning he's asked the Switzerland government to certify the finished guitar is CITES compliant. Make sure he sends that paperwork with the guitar to you. You're expecting to pay duties on this, right? And that's another can of worms...
     
  12. Guitarsan

    Guitarsan "I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV

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    I just finished listening to a Fretboard Journal podcast (available free on iTunes, interview was with Bob Taylor of Taylor guitars.) Among the topics Bob covered was CITES regulations. Bottom line is he referred to this upcoming meeting and said they'd be pushing to get CITES to agree that their regs DO NOT apply to finished guitars for Rosewood, etc. (Brazilian would remain the exception). Actually Mahogany has been on CITES for some time, and finished goods like guitars made of it are excluded from any regulations! So why they didn't do this for guitars with Rosewood is beyond me.

    By the way, things move slowly, so he implied it would be another year or more even if they agreed before this made it into the regulations.
     
  13. Egads

    Egads Happy

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    Well, my guitar made it to the USA. It was slightly damaged by Swiss Customs on the export inspection, but there were no issues with having it shipped.

    I hope the future discussions clarify the process. Even clarification on the consumer end would be beneficial.
     
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  14. Jazzedout

    Jazzedout New Member

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    I hope there was just a slight damage. Enjoy your new guitar!
     
  15. shinksma

    shinksma What? I get a title?

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    Yes, please explain "slightly damaged"??
     

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