CITES Appendix II

[Whitecat]

Which is disappointing - other manufacturers do provide them, so it's not a big thing to do.

I don’t think it’s ill-willed - within the US you can (well, could) buy tonnes of Braz that’s come from reclaimed sources - recycled furniture is one example, where it’s all come in pre-1992 before papers were required - they upcycle that stuff into guitars but have no CITES passports due to the age of the wood.

Where they do import stump wood from Brazil it include papers, so that stuff gets reserved for the export market.

Basically, it is a “big thing” in that if the wood doesn’t have the papers from the beginning it never can.

 

[Guitarsan]

I don’t think it’s ill-willed - within the US you can (well, could) buy tonnes of Braz that’s come from reclaimed sources - recycled furniture is one example, where it’s all come in pre-1992 before papers were required - they upcycle that stuff into guitars but have no CITES passports due to the age of the wood.

Where they do import stump wood from Brazil it include papers, so that stuff gets reserved for the export market.

Basically, it is a “big thing” in that if the wood doesn’t have the papers from the beginning it never can.

Well, never said it was ill-willed, but you make a good point.

 

[JoaoPinheiro]

To put it bluntly, you're stuffed, unless you want to take a massive risk... Braz cannot travel without paperwork, full stop. Will a customs agent stop you and work out that it's Brazilian rosewood if you hand-carry it? Probably unlikely, but that's your risk to assume. If you ship it, I would expect more scrutiny depending on what country it's going to...

Very few PRS guitars were ever supplied with CITES passports - they do it now occasionally on special builds, but there is a tonne of undocumented Braz out there. It's why so many guitars have 'Custom built for USA only' on the back of the headstock. Older ones won't even have that but they won't have the paperwork either, so in strict legal terms it's basically now stuck in whatever country it lives in.

Thanks for the clear answer. Mine has no indication that it was built for the USA only, but it also has no papers. I guess I can still travel with it inside Europe, but I can't send it to PTC for any fixes or changes. This is seriously frustrating. :/

 

[Whitecat]

Thanks for the clear answer. Mine has no indication that it was built for the USA only, but it also has no papers. I guess I can still travel with it inside Europe, but I can't send it to PTC for any fixes or changes. This is seriously frustrating. :/

You’ll wanna be careful even doing that. German Customs recently seized and destroyed a Modern Eagle I that was shipped from the UK. When it comes to CITES Appendix I, even the EU customs union isn’t necessarily going to help.

 

[JoaoPinheiro]

You’ll wanna be careful even doing that. German Customs recently seized and destroyed a Modern Eagle I that was shipped from the UK. When it comes to CITES Appendix I, even the EU customs union isn’t necessarily going to help.

Seriously?! That's absolutely ridiculous. Was some article posted about that somewhere?

 

[Whitecat]

Someone told me Dave Burrluck wrote about it somewhere... can’t find a link, may be only in print at the moment. I’ll see if someone in the know can find a better source...

 

[JoaoPinheiro]

Someone told me Dave Burrluck wrote about it somewhere... can’t find a link, may be only in print at the moment. I’ll see if someone in the know can find a better source...

Thank you!

 

[John Beef]

Good story on NPR about this...
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/30/566927001/the-tree-that-rocked-the-music-industry

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Sorry if it’s already been mentioned in the thread, I believe even Carlos Santana has guitars made from East Indian Rosewood for the European parts of his tours. I assume to prevent any instrument with BRW being seized.

 

[coolmo]

greetings everyone,
new to the forum here: could this CITES limitation be the reason why in Italy we are experiencing delivery dates for Custom SE models being constantly delayed?
May this be due to the Italian distributor or the CITES ban on RW wood species is confusing or EU customs/import officers?
These delays are not rendering justice to the quality and appreciation of PRS guits (yes, even the cheaper models, rock exceptionally), I know folks who had swtiched to other brands because of these delays and I am considering switchin myself too (being 2 months wait now!)

best regards,

Mo
Italy

 

[an0656]

This is so frustrating and sad, I just ordered a beautiful PRS SE 24 with quilted maple from sweetwater, but they probably wont ship it to norway because of this, the sad and ironic part is that they sell new PRS SE models in stores in Norway but they dont have the quilted tops ive fallen in love with, so the stores can buy the guitars but not private imports.

@Shawn@PRS , my question is: if the stores in Norway can buy new PRS SE guitars 2018 with rosewood fretboards, there must be Cites certification documents on them guitars or else the guitars cant be exported from the US, a store like sweetwater should be able ti use the same documentation to export to norway?

Br Aleksander

 

[Alnus Rubra]

This is so frustrating and sad, I just ordered a beautiful PRS SE 24 with quilted maple from sweetwater, but they probably wont ship it to norway because of this, the sad and ironic part is that they sell new PRS SE models in stores in Norway but they dont have the quilted tops ive fallen in love with, so the stores can buy the guitars but not private imports.

@Shawn@PRS , my question is: if the stores in Norway can buy new PRS SE guitars 2018 with rosewood fretboards, there must be Cites certification documents on them guitars or else the guitars cant be exported from the US, a store like sweetwater should be able ti use the same documentation to export to norway?

Br Aleksander

I’m sure Shawn will clarify, but I would assume that there will be a number of the SE range that are allocated for the EU and probably already have the CITES paperwork completed.

After all the guitars are transported from manufacturer i.e. Cortek (Indonesia) to the factory in MD, for final check.

Maybe the EU guitars are checked closer to home, would make sense. Maybe Shawn can answer this?

 

[JonW]

This is so frustrating and sad, I just ordered a beautiful PRS SE 24 with quilted maple from sweetwater, but they probably wont ship it to norway because of this, [...]

While Norway isn't a member of EU, it's a member of the EEA (European Economic Area) as it is a member of EFTA (European Free Trade Association) which provides "the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital".
I've never sent anything to Norway, but from what I read, there should be no problem as a package from within EFTA/EEA/EU should not go through customs anyway.

EDIT:
Hm, I just found this: "[...] there will, inter alia be required CITES import permits for the import of Appendix II species [...]"
So (as always), it seems to be more complicated and not even an EU guitar with the usual CITES documents would be enough... Maybe it is easier to go to a Norwegian PRS dealer and try to order a quilted SE via PRS Europe (as far as I can find out, EM Nordic out of Stockholm is the nordic "Rep", so it might not be possible directly)?

 

[an0656]

The quilted ones are only found at sweetwater it seems,(have not checked with PRS but) I’ve been talking to sweetwater, and they say the documents they get from PRs during import is for the whole shipments not individual guitars, which is odd until they explain that they buy from PRs to sell only within USA, so they couldn’t get documentation even if they tried, so it is not possible to legally send a PRs from sweetwater out of the USA.


Fun fact: I found a flamed (nice one though)SE custom with ebony fretboard in England! I did not know the made that, site even says ebony so you won’t have trouble with Cites!

 

[Alnus Rubra]

The quilted ones are only found at sweetwater it seems,(have not checked with PRS but) I’ve been talking to sweetwater, and they say the documents they get from PRs during import is for the whole shipments not individual guitars, which is odd until they explain that they buy from PRs to sell only within USA, so they couldn’t get documentation even if they tried, so it is not possible to legally send a PRs from sweetwater out of the USA.


Fun fact: I found a flamed (nice one though)SE custom with ebony fretboard in England! I did not know the made that, site even says ebony so you won’t have trouble with Cites!

Andertons.co.uk by any chance?

 

[Tonart]

they buy from PRs to sell only within USA, so they couldn’t get documentation even if they tried, so it is not possible to legally send a PRs from sweetwater out of the USA.

Spot on. What this all means is that, since 2017, virtually every guitar with rosewood made or released in the US, by any brand whatsoever and not just PRS, is legally illiquid internationally. You can’t sell the guitar intentionally.

Which is a shambolic state of affairs considering that these guitars are made with rosewood timber that was harvested compliant to CITES. It’s just the absence of a framework for traceability, post production, that hands the sack of rocks to the individual buyer.

If the guitar was made in the US, the manufacturer would not provide documentation for the timbre that contains traceability back to the individual guitar, because (I suspect) there is no framework for doing so. That is, there is no permanent certificate format provided by CITES specifically for such a purpose. Anyone can apply for an export permit, but applying for one on behalf of an unknown future customer who may have no intent of exporting his guitar ever, is probably gonna land you in trouble with the authorities. The export permit will expire anyway.

There is however a permanent musical instrument certificate (‘passport’) available from the USFWS but that is meant for non-commercial travel of the guitar ie personal use. Securing one could possible serve as documentary proof for you to obtain a CITES export permit later - however this is just my personal speculation and it’s DOUBTFUL any manufacturer could or would obtain one for you.

For guitars like the SE range made overseas and imported into the US, your guitar is saved only if the manufacturer/dealer bother to retain copies the export or import permits. I’m pretty sure even if the permits cover batch shipments there will be traceability to individual guitars - otherwise it would not get past customs.

Phew. All in all, this is a sad situation where the end user that is legally sponsoring the livelihoods of everyone down the guitar manufacturing chain, who has done no wrong, gets landed with a perfectly legal property that is illiquid internationally. This end user is penalised for the actions of others in the world who are illegally killing the rosewood.

Unless customers collectively make a stand with their wallets, flocking to the first manufacturer who can solve this conundrum, the status quo will remain. This is unlikely to occur because 99.999% of customers aren’t even aware of this dynamic, or even understand how these arcane rules work.

Its. Just. Sad.

 

[Tonart]

On the bright side. The value of guitars made before 2017 should increase. That’s because these are all pre-convention instruments for which an export permit can easily be granted by authorities. But then again, value can only increase if people realise this dynamic. Who does?

 

[an0656]

It is possible to take a rosewood guitar with you from the US on a plane if the rosewood is under 22.lbs or 10kg, so if I where in the US on holiday I could bring it back home, its only with commercial shipements you need the cites, but traveling to the US only for this guitar would cost the same as a private stock in norway,

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Whilst EI RW (Dalbergia Latifolia) is listed as a vulnerable species, plantations have been planted specifically to cater for the instrument market.

If harvested responsibly, these plantations should yield supplies without endangering said subspecies.

I’m all in favour of protecting endangered species, however creating a blanket ban of import/export, without forethought regarding musical instruments, was, in my opinion short sighted.

I hope someone with a voice is able to sort this mess out!

 

[an0656]

For guitars like the SE range made overseas and imported into the US, your guitar is saved only if the manufacturer/dealer bother to retain copies the export or import permits. I’m pretty sure even if the permits cover batch shipments there will be traceability to individual guitars - otherwise it would not get past customs.

.

I asked Sweetwater sales rep exactly this question, that in a batch shipment there must be a list of guitars it contains by serial numbers so its possible to verify that the guitars are those they are supposed to be, here is the answer from sweetwater:

Sweetwater rep:
No, it is a single document for the entirety of the shipment. And it would only apply for import not export. For export, there would need to be a document for each individual guitar. Manufacturers are not required to provide that as they are only importing the instrument into the country, and we as a dealer are not to ship outside of our country unless there were some extenuating circumstances. But even in those cases, we do not have and cannot obtain the proper documentation for individual instruments.

Now is it not odd that they can import like that? that they(customs) cant identify the content of a shipment, basically the document states that "the content of this shipment is within regulation, now **** off" it seems so unprofessional when they are so strict with export.