Can someone explain this aspect of power handling *in layman's terms*

[Huggy Love]

OK, so I already understand a few things but here is where it gets foggy to me, and most of the articles I've read on the subject go rambling on with a buncha tech talk in a roundabout way that never gets to what I really want to know.

I know that if you (for example) put a 25w speaker with a 50w output amp it will beat the carp out of the cone and will most likely fail down the road, but what I want to know is in the other direction and the characteristics of the range. For example:

- If you have a 50w amp and the speaker is rated at 50w or 100w or 150w, what are the tonal characteristics of each situation? ... and will that effect the amp in any way?

- Another is 25w amp with 25w, 50w, 100w, 150w rated speakers, does the tone change the farther up the speaker rating?

Can you help an early hominid out here?

 

[Rider1260]

Yes I will try but the reason it is so confusing is that there are SO many variables to what you ask.

Regardless of wattage rating of a speaker there are differences in efficiency of a given speaker.

Rules of thumb - Amp output to equal of greater speaker output but double or more is best as an amp can have transients of double there rated RMS output.

Small amps love big speakers , pushes the power tubes more at a lower level, Just try a nice 15 was amp into a 4x12 the sound is killer

Small wattage speakers distort sooner ( DUH ) so any amp to a small (er ) will have speaker distortion at ( even clean ) at a much lower level.

Best cleans with clean headroom will be had with a bigger wattage amp and big high wattage speakers this combo will also produce the clearest distortion ( best definition between notes )
this is how high quality PA systems works

So yes your tone will change with a given amp as you change speakers and wattage USUALLY a bigger wattage speaker will give to a clearer more defined sound and better note separation thats why most folks like a 4x12 over a 1x12 or 2x12 ( along with cab size )

Hope this helps there are books about this stuff

 

[dmatthews]

I'd say that apart from wanting a speaker with equal to or greater wattage, the bigger changes would be found in matching or mismatching ohms

 

[Huggy Love]

Yes I will try but the reason it is so confusing is that there are SO many variables to what you ask.

Regardless of wattage rating of a speaker there are differences in efficiency of a given speaker.

Rules of thumb - Amp output to equal of greater speaker output but double or more is best as an amp can have transients of double there rated RMS output.

Small amps love big speakers , pushes the power tubes more at a lower level, Just try a nice 15 was amp into a 4x12 the sound is killer

Small wattage speakers distort sooner ( DUH ) so any amp to a small (er ) will have speaker distortion at ( even clean ) at a much lower level.

Best cleans with clean headroom will be had with a bigger wattage amp and big high wattage speakers this combo will also produce the clearest distortion ( best definition between notes )
this is how high quality PA systems works

So yes your tone will change with a given amp as you change speakers and wattage USUALLY a bigger wattage speaker will give to a clearer more defined sound and better note separation thats why most folks like a 4x12 over a 1x12 or 2x12 ( along with cab size )

Hope this helps there are books about this stuff

Thanks for the input, and I understand the concept you laid out there about headroom.

You're talking about more speakers though, but I'm asking about wattage per speaker cause I'm looking to pair up a 1x12. Again talking apples for apples, (one speaker cab with either 25w, 50w, 100w or 150w, is a 20w amp going to sound very different on a 50w vs a 150w?

 

[Huggy Love]

I'd say that apart from wanting a speaker with equal to or greater wattage, the bigger changes would be found in matching or mismatching ohms

I'm all over that one, just recently got the hang of that and for controlling volume and feel mismatching ohms is a great tool.

 

[Black Plaid]

Thanks for the input, and I understand the concept you laid out there about headroom.

You're talking about more speakers though, but I'm asking about wattage per speaker cause I'm looking to pair up a 1x12. Again talking apples for apples, (one speaker cab with either 25w, 50w, 100w or 150w, is a 20w amp going to sound very different on a 50w vs a 150w?

I"m going to say 'yes', if only because it's unlikely you will find the exact same frequency response in a system designed to handle 150 watts vs 50 watts. The voice coil is going to be more/thicker wire and the cone is going to be similarly constructed.

 

[László]

I'm asking about wattage per speaker cause I'm looking to pair up a 1x12. Again talking apples for apples, (one speaker cab with either 25w, 50w, 100w or 150w, is a 20w amp going to sound very different on a 50w vs a 150w?

The question can’t really be answered.

Power ratings measure how much power the speaker can take for a small percentage of the time you’re playing it (I think it’s around 20-25% of the time). In other words, how much power it can take for very brief periods.

Is there an industry standard method of determining how that should be measured? Peak? RMS? IHF? Nope! Everyone gets to decide their measurement technique. Some manufacturers rate speakers conservatively, some rate them to look good in the brochure.

AND worse still, every model of speaker sounds different, handles different power, and responds differently due to reasons having absolutely nothing to do with whether it’ll blow up at 10 watts or 1000 watts. There is simply no “rule of thumb.” You pretty much have to (a) try the speaker with your amp; or (b) take someone’s recommendation that, yes, this speaker sounds awesome with a Veeblefetzer 20!

Since “awesome” is in the ear of the beholder, and since my idea of great tone may be your idea of absolute garbage, the safe, smart thing to do is to take your amp to the local guitar store, plug it into a bunch of cabs, and see what sounds best. I know, it’s a PITA, but there’s really no other way to know for sure.

Fact is, 100 Watt speaker A could sound amazing with your amp, and 100 Watt speaker B could sound crappy with your amp. It’s got nothin’ to do with power handling, and everything to do with esoteric things you don’t have to deal with.

As long as the speaker can handle your amp’s power, just get the one that sounds good to you with your amp. There’s no mileage in overthinking this.

 

[Rider1260]

Yes and no in theory wattage is wattage so a 90 watt speaker ( like in many MK Series Mesa Combos ) will sound different than a V30 or a Green Back because they will clip or distort sooner , but the cabinet also plays a HUGE part in this, a Speaker moves thru the air and has resistance in a smaller cab like a 1x12 the speaker can have a harder time reaching full excursion , basically an internally force the speaker fights against inside the cab.

Thanks for the input, and I understand the concept you laid out there about headroom.

You're talking about more speakers though, but I'm asking about wattage per speaker cause I'm looking to pair up a 1x12. Again talking apples for apples, (one speaker cab with either 25w, 50w, 100w or 150w, is a 20w amp going to sound very different on a 50w vs a 150w?

 

[László]

Yes and no in theory wattage is wattage so a 90 watt speaker ( like in many MK Series Mesa Combos ) will sound different than a V30 or a Green Back because they will clip or distort sooner , but the cabinet also plays a HUGE part in this, a Speaker moves thru the air and has resistance in a smaller cab like a 1x12 the speaker can have a harder time reaching full excursion , basically an internally force the speaker fights against inside the cab.

Actually, power handling wattage isn’t apples to apples wattage, because not all speakers are rated RMS. A 150 Watt “peak” power rating might be a speaker that can only handle 75 Watts RMS.

Also, some speakers that handle high power will distort plenty at lower wattage input - they may not blow up at 20 Watts, but distortion is by design with guitar speakers. Plus, a lot depends on how the voice coil behaves.

I agree with you on everything else.

 

[Huggy Love]

thing to do is to take your amp to the local guitar store, plug it into a bunch of cabs, and see what sounds best.

TBH that doesn't apply here because I was planning on buying a speaker for an empty cab, not looking to buy a cab. That's why i was trying to educate myself on the subject.

Just like my recent amp journey, and the past boutique pick thing, I find speaker choice to be a deep rabbit hole also, with people online in forums & reviews touting celsestion greenbacks or cream backs, or Tone tubbys, Eminence this or that. Lot's of strong opinions all over the place.

I was just wondering if there was a calculation or methodology on the wattage thing. Like which setup gives the darkest tone, or which setup let's you overdrive at low volumes easily, which gets the best jazz tone in the clean channel, that kinda stuff.

I guess I'll have to do more reading & researching.......................


...... that's hard for us who still work with flint tools.

 

[László]

Huggy, you might try speakers in similar cabs to give yourself a rough idea of how they might sound in yours. The ears are the best tools we have.

Even if there was a “which speaker” formula that could answer your speaker questions, you’d have to be able to factor in the effect your cab has on that speaker to make an accurate prediction. You can see how complicated this gets for us cave men.

There’s also the question of how your amp sounds. A 30 Watt Vox AC30 sounds different from my 30 Watt HXDA, sounds different from my DG30. The Vintage 30s in both of my cabinets sound different due to different cabinet design; for example, if I run my 30 Watt HXDA into the cab I use for the DG30, the result is a way different sound than running the D.G. into that same cab. The closed back cab for the HX sounds better with that amp than the ported design used in the D.G. cab. But same speakers, and same amp power rating!

Then there’s the front-mounted and rear-mounted question re: the baffle; the birch ply, pine, hardwood, tolex or no tolex factors. And cabs sound different depending on the room, and placement in the room.

You can begin to see how many variables there are, and why there can’t be a simple formula.

Just read some time about the processes involved in designing a hi fi speaker, where they have lots of science, anechoic chambers, computer models, etc. They get everything together on paper, then go listen to the speaker, and still have to monkey around with the design by ear, and trial and error.

All the forum BS in the universe is only going to give you opinion, usually from folks who are excited about the speakers they like with their rig. But that tells you nothing about your rig, nor can it address your tone preferences.

You want the ideal solution? Start putting speakers in your cab, use them with your amp, and accept the fact that finding the magic tone combination is a trial and error process. There’s a company that makes a quick-change speaker attachment gizmo that makes it easier to swap speakers in and out, but I can’t remember what it’s called.

 

[dmatthews]

This looks very interesting

 

[bodia]

TBH that doesn't apply here because I was planning on buying a speaker for an empty cab, not looking to buy a cab. That's why i was trying to educate myself on the subject.

Just like my recent amp journey, and the past boutique pick thing, I find speaker choice to be a deep rabbit hole also, with people online in forums & reviews touting celsestion greenbacks or cream backs, or Tone tubbys, Eminence this or that. Lot's of strong opinions all over the place.

I was just wondering if there was a calculation or methodology on the wattage thing. Like which setup gives the darkest tone, or which setup let's you overdrive at low volumes easily, which gets the best jazz tone in the clean channel, that kinda stuff.

I guess I'll have to do more reading & researching.......................


...... that's hard for us who still work with flint tools.

Reach out to this guy. I can't remember for sure because it was a few years ago, but I think his name is Jim. Anyway, he was very helpful with guiding me in my search for a speaker to put into my HXDA combo. Answering questions, asking questions about playing style, tones, etc.

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/index.html

 

[László]

Reach out to this guy. I can't remember for sure because it was a few years ago, but I think his name is Jim. Anyway, he was very helpful with guiding me in my search for a speaker to put into my HXDA combo. Answering questions, asking questions about playing style, tones, etc.

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/index.html

He is indeed very knowledgeable about Celestion speakers and the clones of early Celestions that he makes. Very nice guy to boot!

Plus, he’ll make you a paper voice coil speaker that will catch fire if it’s fed too much power. Gotta admire that! Not worried about potential lawsuits. Brass cojones.

 

[bodia]

He is indeed very knowledgeable about Celestion speakers and the clones of early Celestions that he makes. Very nice guy to boot!

Plus, he’ll make you a paper voice coil speaker that will catch fire if it’s fed too much power. Gotta admire that! Not worried about potential lawsuits. Brass cojones.

Yeah! Even if Huggy isn't looking for a Celestion type speaker I figure the interaction could be informative.

 

[Huggy Love]

Yeah! Even if Huggy isn't looking for a Celestion type speaker I figure the interaction could be informative.

Being a Mesa veteran how could I not be a celestion guy?

In fact I'm planning on going with a vintage 30, then to put it all together with a major cab project, I'll have a lot to do, including eventually a thread on it .................... sometime in the future.