Bernie vs. SE 245 - Major Distinctions?

[Rockula]

Thanks guys. My decision was very difficult, because I really like both of these. If the Bernie had two tone controls, it would have been much easier fro me. I mean, for crying out loud, how are you supposed to play woman-tone Cream songs without all four controls?

But eventually, I found a brand new Bernie on line, at a mom and pop shop in Iowa. Got it for $575.

This means that PRS will announce a 4 knob Bernie at NAMM, almost for sure...

 

[Kazz]

No worries, we're nice guys here.

And I have been known to be wrong a time or two...hundred...thousand..million!

Since I can't find the specs on the Bernie any more, I can only go by memory, but I'm pretty sure.

If you can't get used to the controls, you should be able to rewire it to get 2 tones and 1 volume instead.

 

[GS1]

Very nice, can't wait to see it!

 

[MikeChandler]

I've played both and I bought the Bernie. The SE245 was nice - the neck is ok - and it's certainly pretty. The neck on the Bernie is better and it has more chunk and better mids, thanks to the thicker body and big fat neck - you get more neck tone, like you do on a 50s LP.

And I modded it too... the most important mod was I changed the stock stud bushings and put a USA stoptail on it. I bought the pigtail steel long '50s les paul bushings from stewmac and using a forstener bit I drilled it the extra depth, and then inserted the bushings and mounted the USA stoptail with tonepros USA locking studs. I've now strummed it next to a les paul historic '58 unplugged, and it has that same acoustic volume and resonance. It totally opened up the guitar. It was a huge difference. I have SD alnico II slash signature pickups and the stock pots. I also put on the heavier Gibson Deluxe (older schaller version) tulip style tuners, the ones with a bearing on the base plate, and screw in bushings - what you would find on an SG.

Overall I think the Bernie is the singular best deal and greatest bang for the buck guitar on the planet. Period. It is a monster in its own right, and you better buy one while you can. There is no way Paul is going to allow this insanity to continue.

And the neck? The neck is to die for...

One other note - the black guitar is the sleeper. Don't go for the pretty flame, it's a veneer. The black guitar has a SOLID maple top on it; there's no flamed veneer and glue layer over that, so it can resonate better. Which is why the change out of the bridge, studs and inserts give the guitar the balls of an historic LP.

Talk about a sleeper guitar...

 

[MikeChandler]

One other quick note - if you do the mod above, remember to shove the ground wire back in (stripped and tinned of course) from the control cavity after. I didn't catch that first time, and had to disassemble and yank the bushings. Also you can find the stoptail cheap by looking for somebody who upgraded their S2 singlecut. I don't think it's common knowledge yet that the S2 singlecut uses the USA bridge. I got mine for under $100 on reverb. I can't speak for the tonepros as I haven't tried one in person, but I know the USA stoptail works perfectly, and you'll be astonished how much lighter it is.

Good luck!

 

[pac90]

Not quite sure the veneer makes much of a difference except that it looks from a few steps like a core, but always liked the look of the black one too

USA wide fat nut is worth it, don't know why they didn't just use that for all of the minuscule cost


Congrats on the Bernie

 

[MikeChandler]

USA wide fat nut is worth it, don't know why they didn't just use that for all of the minuscule cost


Congrats on the Bernie

Because it's far cheaper to get something out of Korea than something into Korea.

Thanks!

 

[Rockula]

I've played both and I bought the Bernie. The SE245 was nice - the neck is ok - and it's certainly pretty. The neck on the Bernie is better and it has more chunk and better mids, thanks to the thicker body and big fat neck - you get more neck tone, like you do on a 50s LP.

And I modded it too... the most important mod was I changed the stock stud bushings and put a USA stoptail on it. I bought the pigtail steel long '50s les paul bushings from stewmac and using a forstener bit I drilled it the extra depth, and then inserted the bushings and mounted the USA stoptail with tonepros USA locking studs. I've now strummed it next to a les paul historic '58 unplugged, and it has that same acoustic volume and resonance. It totally opened up the guitar. It was a huge difference. I have SD alnico II slash signature pickups and the stock pots. I also put on the heavier Gibson Deluxe (older schaller version) tulip style tuners, the ones with a bearing on the base plate, and screw in bushings - what you would find on an SG.

Overall I think the Bernie is the singular best deal and greatest bang for the buck guitar on the planet. Period. It is a monster in its own right, and you better buy one while you can. There is no way Paul is going to allow this insanity to continue.

And the neck? The neck is to die for...

One other note - the black guitar is the sleeper. Don't go for the pretty flame, it's a veneer. The black guitar has a SOLID maple top on it; there's no flamed veneer and glue layer over that, so it can resonate better. Which is why the change out of the bridge, studs and inserts give the guitar the balls of an historic LP.

Talk about a sleeper guitar...

So Mike, are the studs for the PRS bridge the same as the ones on a Les Paul stop piece? And not the same as the ones on the Les Paul bridge? Or do I have that backwards?

Eventually, I would like to put some very PAF-like pickups in my Bernie. I've tried a number of different kinds in Les Pauls before, and never really found any I loved. My Epi LP currently has Stew Mac Parsons Streets, which I actually prefer in that guitar to Gibson USA '57 classics. I put Al-IV magnets in the Parsons Streets, versus the Al-IIs they came with. Ideally I'd like something that might sound good tapped as well. Fralin Unbuckers perhaps.

 

[pac90]

bare knuckle mules?.......ask tim on their site, or general pickup forum

 

[MikeChandler]

The stock studs for either PRS bridge, usa or s2, are not the same as les paul bridge studs, but similar to the les paul tailpiece studs (you could use those after a bushing swap).

The studs to get are tonepros SPRS2N locking USA studs. The bushings to get are pigtail steel '50s bushings. You can use the USA tonepros studs and pigtail. bushings with your s2 tailpiece.

Pickups the field is wide open. I am a PAF style pickup guy, but the Slash pickups are good - they're kind of a hotter PAF. My personal fave for pickups is the RS Guitarworks True 60s. I think they're a slightly modified Fralin Pure PAF. I put those in a 2006 R7 and it was nuts. Sleeper set is the Dimarzio 36th anniversary. I put those in a R8 and they shined. I am pretty satisified with the bernie, so I am not pickup swapping yet. I can tell you it sounds every bit as good as my USA McCarty, and it plays a lot nicer. If you had both sitting next to you, which do you think you'd grab? For me it's the Bernie. That should say a lot; it gives up nothing to its american counterpart.

 

[bodia]

Or, you could order the MannMade 2300 bridge from John Mann which comes with brass studs to fit the metric sized Bernie, and the tools to remove the old ones.

 

[Rockula]

I think it's pretty amazing that SEs are so good that we don't think anything is at all odd about comparing them to big buck Gibsons and such. My Santana SE is only moderately modded, but it's in the same rotation as my Gibson Les Pauls, and some other much more expensive guitars.

 

[Mikegarveyblues]

Bare Knuckle Mules are a good choice for the Marsden if you want Classic PAF-ish tones. A4 mags.

This is my Bernie when I had the Mules in both neck and bridge positions:

If you're thinking of splitting the coils with a push/pull the you want 4 Conducter and short leg pups (Although long leg may also fit)

You may get better split / tapped sounds with higher output pups so it's worth speaking to Tim at BK.

The Mann 2300 stoptail is a perfect mod for the Bernie. Looks good, works perfectly, improves tone, etc...

As Bodia said, the stud wells are a perfect fit and are as quick to swap as a set of new strings.

 

[Rockula]

The stock studs for either PRS bridge, usa or s2, are not the same as les paul bridge studs, but similar to the les paul tailpiece studs (you could use those after a bushing swap).

The studs to get are tonepros SPRS2N locking USA studs. The bushings to get are pigtail steel '50s bushings. You can use the USA tonepros studs and pigtail. bushings with your s2 tailpiece.

Pickups the field is wide open. I am a PAF style pickup guy, but the Slash pickups are good - they're kind of a hotter PAF. My personal fave for pickups is the RS Guitarworks True 60s. I think they're a slightly modified Fralin Pure PAF. I put those in a 2006 R7 and it was nuts. Sleeper set is the Dimarzio 36th anniversary. I put those in a R8 and they shined. I am pretty satisified with the bernie, so I am not pickup swapping yet. I can tell you it sounds every bit as good as my USA McCarty, and it plays a lot nicer. If you had both sitting next to you, which do you think you'd grab? For me it's the Bernie. That should say a lot; it gives up nothing to its american counterpart.

I see. You're using TonePro locking studs, in Pigtail steel bushings, and since the Pigtail bushings are longer than the stock ones, they require some drilling.

I've done a lot of guitar modding over the years, but drilling deep into wood where the bridge goes scares the crap out of me. Seems like a simple mistake would ruin the guitar. On the other hand, I know the better Les Pauls I've played had extra deep bushings. The owner of Wildwood told me his special run LP reissues use deeper studs than ordinary Gibson R series guitars. And those things are fantastic.

 

[MikeChandler]

I see. You're using TonePro locking studs, in Pigtail steel bushings, and since the Pigtail bushings are longer than the stock ones, they require some drilling.

I've done a lot of guitar modding over the years, but drilling deep into wood where the bridge goes scares the crap out of me. Seems like a simple mistake would ruin the guitar. On the other hand, I know the better Les Pauls I've played had extra deep bushings. The owner of Wildwood told me his special run LP reissues use deeper studs than ordinary Gibson R series guitars. And those things are fantastic.

My brand new bernie was just under $400 from the dealer, so I wasn't too worried about modding it. And for what it's worth we are talking 5/16" worth of drilling - you could use a hand drill press for that and go super slow. I have a drill press, and was able to lock the depth gauge, so it would only go the depth I wanted. A machine shop or wood shop would probably do it for you for under $50; they would have the same or better capability.

I have a box of other shorter bushings I tried, and I'd be happy to send you some, just pm me, but they aren't as good. The pigtail long steel are what it took to get that back singing. It's now acoustically as loud as an R8 with beautiful overtones, almost twice the acoustic volume of the McCarty. But hey this is a mod the lespaulforum has been swearing by for years, as Gibson only started doing it recently, and only to their historic line.

If you do not intend to go long, I'd just get the metric tonepro locking studs and put them in the existing bushings.

But I say go long or go home

 

[MikeChandler]

I think it's pretty amazing that SEs are so good that we don't think anything is at all odd about comparing them to big buck Gibsons and such. My Santana SE is only moderately modded, but it's in the same rotation as my Gibson Les Pauls, and some other much more expensive guitars.

Amen to that!

I wonder if Paul tosses and turns at night ruing the day he taught a Korean factory how to build a PRS. Can you imagine? And then to pour gasoline on the fire he let Bernie opt for an SE (god bless him) complete with fatter body and the beast neck. What a fiat!

The Bernie will someday command ridiculous prices, like golden-age Japanese instruments currently do.

BOTTOM LINE: IF YOU DON'T HAVE A BERNIE BUY ONE NOW.

 

[Rockula]

My brand new bernie was just under $400 from the dealer, so I wasn't too worried about modding it. And for what it's worth we are talking 5/16" worth of drilling - you could use a hand drill press for that and go super slow. I have a drill press, and was able to lock the depth gauge, so it would only go the depth I wanted. A machine shop or wood shop would probably do it for you for under $50; they would have the same or better capability.

I have a box of other shorter bushings I tried, and I'd be happy to send you some, just pm me, but they aren't as good. The pigtail long steel are what it took to get that back singing. It's now acoustically as loud as an R8 with beautiful overtones, almost twice the acoustic volume of the McCarty. But hey this is a mod the lespaulforum has been swearing by for years, as Gibson only started doing it recently, and only to their historic line.

If you do not intend to go long, I'd just get the metric tonepro locking studs and put them in the existing bushings.

But I say go long or go home

Well, I do have a drill press and a set of Forstner bits. Do you remember if the bit you used was a standard size, or something a little more out of the ordinary?

 

[Rockula]

Amen to that!

I wonder if Paul tosses and turns at night ruing the day he taught a Korean factory how to build a PRS. Can you imagine? And then to pour gasoline on the fire he let Bernie opt for an SE (god bless him) complete with fatter body and the beast neck. What a fiat!

The Bernie will someday command ridiculous prices, like golden-age Japanese instruments currently do.

BOTTOM LINE: IF YOU DON'T HAVE A BERNIE BUY ONE NOW.

That's a funny thing. Back in the mid '80s, I desperately wanted a good Strat. Right around the time when Fender was changing ownership. I believe it was '86 when they didn't make any guitars in the US at all. Then Fender began using Asian suppliers for official products. I bought a Squier and suffered with the deadest, least musical guitar body I've even encountered, but at least is was otherwise reasonably Strat-like, and I could afford it. In the late '90s, I was living in Japan, and you could get decent knock off Strats for low prices everywhere. Yet I still bought an American Standard Strat once I could stomach the expense.

You have to wonder what the Koreans will do with their new PRS knowledge, but I doubt they'll cannibalize PRS USA too much. Can't say I've ever seen the quality of wood that goes into those anywhere else.

 

[GS1]

BOTTOM LINE: IF YOU DON'T HAVE A BERNIE BUY ONE NOW.

Hmmm, don't mind if I do!

 

[Johnhe]

I'm not sure if anyone is interested, but I measured the thickness of the body on my SE245. Can anyone do likewise for the Bernie?

By the way, the Bare Knuckle Mules sound like a great choice for replacement pickups.