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Deleted member 5962
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I’m tired of looking. What is the price of the new 50 watt head?
Archon - New Version
- Thread starter alantig
- Start date
Have you guys opened up your amps? The reason I ask is that I don't believe that the Archons were ever fully hand-wired amps. I think they used PCBs for a lot of things. But hey, I could have gotten my wires crossed on the info.
On a personal level, I'm disappointed that they're building it overseas, but I'm not the type of player who'd buy an Archon, so I guess I can't complain.
elvis
Hamfisted String Banger
The original Archon is not handwired. The components were soldered to the PCB overseas and then the unit was assembled in the US.
Black Plaid
Other Alan!
Yes, but were they soldered there "by hand"?
andy474x
Knows the Drill
Adding to this... I think all the 2 channel amps going all the way back to the C and H, and maybe even some of the single channel "Tuxedo" amps were "hybrid" construction, with a combination of PCB and hand wiring. I believe they were designed so that the majority of the signal chain was hand wired, and the less influential parts of the circuit were PCB mounted. I know this is the case in my Custom 50, having taken the chassis out a good number of times.
Personally, I think PCB vs hand wired is like many things, you can have a good PCB amp and a bad hand wired amp. Heck, I think Mesa's are mostly PCB based. The build quality of both imported PRS amps I've owned has been fantastic, for the price paid, I have no issue with the PCB factor. Issues with those amps were more related to issues taking a hand wired prototype and scaling it up to mass PCB production, not because the use of PCB alone inherently hurt the tone or function of the amp greatly, but because there were hiccups from the translation to mass production that didn't get worked out, but could have been. For example, grounding issues on the MT15, and just generally packing a whole lot of amp into a tiny little box.
Assuming PRS has done a better job on these 2nd gen Archons fixing those little gremlins, they could be pretty cool, if that's what someone is after. Would have been evn better if PRS had resurrected the Eminence speakers that came in the original SE amps and cabs, I think they're a better match to an amp like this, and in fact some of my favorite hard rock sounding speakers that still handle other styles really well.
Personally, I think PCB vs hand wired is like many things, you can have a good PCB amp and a bad hand wired amp. Heck, I think Mesa's are mostly PCB based. The build quality of both imported PRS amps I've owned has been fantastic, for the price paid, I have no issue with the PCB factor. Issues with those amps were more related to issues taking a hand wired prototype and scaling it up to mass PCB production, not because the use of PCB alone inherently hurt the tone or function of the amp greatly, but because there were hiccups from the translation to mass production that didn't get worked out, but could have been. For example, grounding issues on the MT15, and just generally packing a whole lot of amp into a tiny little box.
Assuming PRS has done a better job on these 2nd gen Archons fixing those little gremlins, they could be pretty cool, if that's what someone is after. Would have been evn better if PRS had resurrected the Eminence speakers that came in the original SE amps and cabs, I think they're a better match to an amp like this, and in fact some of my favorite hard rock sounding speakers that still handle other styles really well.
Wakester
Re Member
I saw one on the 'verb that was pre-order just shy of a grand. The combo was a hundred fity ducks more.
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Deleted member 5962
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Actually, as I'm sure you know, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. "Hand wired" simply means the wiring was all soldered by a tech, not a robot. In fact, many people are using "mostly hand wired" now, because some of the wiring is still done by machine.
But that has nothing to do with the three main methods of building the circuit. Point to point, circuit board and eyelet or turret boards can all be hand wired, or not, or partially. Also, while this is argued often, a well laid out circuit board can not only sound every bit as good as a PTP or Turret/eyelet board, but can sometimes have advantages in lower noise floor. Only in the most simple and pure circuits do some people still think that there can be a sonic advantage to PTP or turret/eyelet board builds. In fact, one major boutique guy said that after testing A vs. B for years, he built eyelet board amps ONLY because he knew they presented a higher end image and people would pay for a "high end amp" more readily if it was not a circuit board.
I'm with you on the fact that if different parts are used, they can affect things significantly. But a well designed circuit board won't be what makes this amp sound different, IMHO.
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Truth. John Suhr has debated this with many on TGP. There is certainly an allure to hand wired, even to me when I truly believe you wrote. It’s part of the history of old amps that are revered. Same as classic guitars of old. I remember Suhr saying he could build the same amp both ways and you wouldn’t be able to tell or something to that effect. It would come down to the same hair splitting of 2 amps of the same construction. I had 2 Archon 100’s they sounded a hair different. There’s so many tiny things that affect it. That’s the fun(or pain) of actual amps!
Well, yes and no. Printed circuit boards use machine-printed traces for connections between components. Hand-wired amps use traditional, discrete wires to connect components. Some players, myself included, believe based on the evidence of our ears that this contributes to a difference in sound between the two. I don't know why this should be, and don't much care.
Hand wiring also lets builders choose between parts; lots of audio components that populate analog circuits have fairly large tolerances. The best builders hear that, the others don't. Some of them account for it in their builds.
A machine-populated circuit board doesn't listen to a damn thing, of course.
My brain tells me what I need to know about what I'm hearing, and third party opinions don't, and shouldn't matter. If someone else feels differently, and their brains tell them different things about what their ears hear, more power to them.
I agree that the simpler the circuit, the easier it is to hear the difference, and often, the better the amp sounds to me. In fact, even my Mesa Lone Star has the ability to switch circuits containing various features out of the signal chain. The fewer of these features that are switched in, the better the amp sounds - to me.
However, I had a number of Two-Rocks, including two-channel models, with fairly complex circuits, and they were 100% fabulous amps (hand wired). Only the HXDA knocked them off their perch as my #1s, and that was because I gradually came to prefer a traditional tone to the Dumble style sound.
The T-Rs were more open and transparent, especially clean, more nuanced, and more subtle than any amp I had ever owned up to that point, including my beloved '60s amps. Owning my first T-R was a revelation in how an amp could sound. At the time, I didn't think about the hand-wired vs pcb thing, I just liked the tone. If you've lived with one of these amps for any length of time, you understand from experience how different it feels and sounds from your other amps. Frankly, it's the only way to know. Video demos can't reveal that.
But in general, personal experience listening to, and working with certain audio tools, gives you a feel for what works for you and what doesn't. There are inevitably going to be things your ears tell you that matter to you, and things that don't. As an example, I've come to the conclusion that even on a PCB, discrete components sound better to me than ICs. This is one reason I've gone back to recording gear like mic preamps and other hardware that has them, and dumped the other stuff.
Last summer I recorded an IC, software-controlled (the software controls how the hardware behaves) Neve 1073 emulation on my UA Apollo against my BAE Neve clone using the same mic, same acoustic guitar, same cables, same distances, everything. The BAE uses discrete components exactly like the ones used by Neve in the '70s, and even the original transformers.
I posted the recording on my website. Not one person said they couldn't hear the difference. Not one. The BAE had different (IMHO better) transient response, and was richer sounding. Every comment agreed.
I did the same test, believe it or not, with two different mic cables. Again, the difference was clear and those responding to my post said they heard it and agreed that one cable had a fuller tone. Perhaps the reason was that the cable everyone preferred had 1/3 the capacitance of the other cable. Perhaps it was something else.
I have no idea why that should be, but there you are. The recordings didn't lie.
Nonetheless, the key is what works for you, the player, the recording and/or mix engineer, and what doesn't. As I've said over and over, there is no "best" when it comes to musical instruments and recording tools. That's a matter of artistic preference. There is only what works for the individual.
I can say from many years of studio experience that most people can't hear the effects of a compressor unless it's cranked into overkill; subtle EQ changes often elude their ears. Differences between microphones that are huge to me? You'd be surprised: Lots of musicians can't distinguish between an SM58 and a Neumann U87. It's even rarer among my ad clients. However, they like my mixes and recordings, can't quite put their fingers on why that's so, and that's fine with me. I know why, and that's why I get paid to do what I do.
"I can't hear a difference, therefore a difference doesn't exist," is true only for the person who can't hear it.
I've given up the impossible chore of trying to convince people that they ought to hear things the way I do. Musicians and engineers have to judge these things for themselves.
Just my opinion, but there's an amp builder who's full of sh!t. Even Randall Smith admitted in one video that hand-wired amps do sound different, and in his words, if you're building one-offs, it's "the way to go;" his objection was that each one sounds a bit different and has its own tone, and he wanted his amps to sound identical to each other so his customers could expect a consistent tone. I've posted links to that video here in past years, and am not going to search the web to re-prove he said that.
Certainly PCB amps can sound very good; that is indeed how Mesa's been making them for years. I've had eight or ten Mesas over the years, still like them, and currently have a couple in my studio, despite a sonic preference for the hand-wired amps I've owned. Are they as transparent as my hand-wired amps? No. Do they have the touch-sensitivity of the hand-wired amps? No. But they do very nice things, are also worth having, and those things make them a great alternative. My Mesas are equipped with NOS tubes, and that's one thing that helps them out.
I've also recorded dozens of other PCB amps, and owned quite a few besides Mesas. Each has its charms, each has its drawbacks, as with any amp. But after a long time, there's no doubt in my mind that hand-wired sounds different because it is different.
Even the HXDA and DG30 have a circuit board trace somewhere, though they're 90-95% hand-wired per Doug Sewell. They have more hand-wiring than the Custom 30s, Sweet 16s, etc,, and thicker, mil-spec tag boards. Maybe that percentage of hand-wiring matters to their tone, maybe not, but they're fantastic sounding amps, as are PRS' earlier Custom and Sweet 16 lines.
One pro session player I work with played my HXDA and said, "This is so cool - I hear the distortion but I still hear the actual tone of the guitar under it." That sounds incomprehensible, of course, unless you've played the amp yourself, but I think it's a big part of the difference between PCB and mostly hand-wired amps in general.
'Fantastic sounding amp' is the important thing, In fact, it's the difference-maker, much more so than whether it's hand wired, or made by machines, or made by monkeys at typewriters.
The bottom line here is that I'm not trying to be right, just to express my beliefs. But to imply that a guy like me buys a hand-wired piece of gear for the romance/image/status of it is nonsense. I spend my money only on what works because it's my livelihood, and because I appreciate the differences.
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Stephen J.
New Member
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2020
- Messages
- 485
Les, I think that is the longest post you have ever made. And you didn’t even go into a self critical dialogue with your self.
I am glad you are so involved with your craft. No compromises. You know you could cut corners and still get paid, but you don’t.
Those are some mighty kind words, Stephen!
I saw a video where Ken Parker, who now makes arch top guitars, said something like "Achieving craftsmanship is its own reward." That resonates with me, and seems true. I'm sure you feel the same way.
Hmmm.
One of my longtime close friends is a Suhr dealer ( he was a friend for 30 years before he got into the guitar/amp business). He loves Suhr gear and thinks it's the best. I dig Suhr's pedals, and have several, but the guitars and amps aren't my thing.
I felt bad declining his offer that would have put a Suhr amp into my studio, because I have a feeling he took it personally. But I'm not going to buy something to just have it sit in my room and look pretty.
I'm not suggesting it's because of hand wiring or not hand wiring. Their tone just doesn't appeal to me and it doesn't matter what the reason is. The way I'd put it is that their amps sound 'modern' as opposed to having a more vintage vibe.
If they were to come out with an amp with tone I love, I'd buy it regardless of whether it's hand wired or PCB. I bought a PCB Mesa Fillmore because the tone knocked me out right around the same time frame. In a similar way, I've avoided Mesa's modern sounding amps, and that's the reason I didn't buy an Archon.
It's not a knock on Suhr. Different strokes for different folks.
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I’m not a Suhr owner either. There’s only one I’ve ever even considered. It’s not about the brand, just that he is a fairly reputable builder. Same goes for bad cat. A huge part of they’re line these days is pcb. They were ALL about hand wired for years. It’s about survival as a company and accessibility to the general public IMO. Good sounding amps can be made every which way. The parts are important, the quality of the build is important- the type of build is less important, maybe not much at all when it comes to tone. That was my point.Hmmm.
One of my longtime close friends is a Suhr dealer ( he was a friend for 30 years before he got into the guitar/amp business). He loves Suhr gear and thinks it's the best. I dig Suhr's pedals, and have several, but the guitars and amps aren't my thing.
I felt bad declining his offer that would have put a Suhr amp into my studio, because I have a feeling he took it personally. But I'm not going to buy something to just have it sit in my room and look pretty.
I'm not suggesting it's because of hand wiring or not hand wiring. Their tone just doesn't appeal to me and it doesn't matter what the reason is. The way I'd put it is that their amps sound 'modern' as opposed to having a more vintage vibe.
If they were to come out with an amp with tone I love, I'd buy it regardless of whether it's hand wired or PCB. I bought a PCB Mesa Fillmore because the tone knocked me out right around the same time frame. In a similar way, I've avoided Mesa's modern sounding amps, and that's the reason I didn't buy an Archon.
It's not a knock on Suhr. Different strokes for different folks.
I agree completely. While I love splitting hairs about tone stuff, the bottom line is what works for the player.
I may have received bad information when I was originally researching amps and eventually made the decision to buy an Archon (which I no longer own). Perhaps it was the sales guy who told me it that, which led to me being under the impression that they were hand wired and made entirely at the USA factory. But that was a long time ago and memory is now a bit fuzzy.
The main reasoning why I am so hell bent on owning hand wired amps point to point amps is twofold, and each reason is just as important to me as the other.
1.) As a well established general rule, hand wired amps sound better.
2.) Hand wired point to point amps can be repaired. I'll explain what I mean by that below.
I've been punching a clock and working jobs for 40 years now and the vast majority of those jobs involved me fixing stuff that broke. I repair things, and my father before me repaired things. Cars, trucks, servers, laptops, cell phones preventative maintenance etc. If I have some sort of expensive item, and something goes wrong with it, I want someone to fix it so that I don't have to buy another one. A Carvin V3 is a low cost clone of a Mesa Triple Rectifier. They sound great but if anything goes wrong with one, you have to repair it by replacing the entire printed circuit board and that makes repair impractical due to the cost of doing so. However, in a hand wired amp, if one tiny component goes bad, it is easy to replace just that one thing in a cost effective manner.
I follow the same practice in the model of truck I drive and the model of car my wife drives. Most manufacturers stop making parts for a particular model of vehicle after 7 years. But in this case, one of the reasons I have selected that particular truck and car is because you can still, and will always be able to find repair parts for them. Any year ever made, you can still find any part for that vehicle that you will ever need. (There are only 3 vehicles on Earth I know if that fit that description and we own two of them.)
Point being... I MUST be able to repair it. My PRS Blistertone amp for example. They don't make them any more an if anything ever happened to it, I would want it fixed.
And no.... I have never looked inside my amps for being terrified that I will get zapped to death if I were to ever try. At this point, I just don't know enough about what I am doing to look under the hood of a tube amp.For me it's like that Indiana Jones moment when they looked inside the Ark of the Covenant...
elvis
Hamfisted String Banger
I routinely repair my PC Board amps. Easy enough to replace components. And there aren’t multi-component joints where desoldering disconnects four or five components. Also no multi-component twisted solder connects.
And no wires to wiggle around and change the magic tone.
After years of maintaining a 1965 Deluxe Reverb, I can say that I changed the wiring shapes 100 times to get to or around components.
To each his/her own.
And no wires to wiggle around and change the magic tone.
After years of maintaining a 1965 Deluxe Reverb, I can say that I changed the wiring shapes 100 times to get to or around components.
To each his/her own.
The new SE version of the Archon at $600 less $ and the same name. Owning both a MT 15 and a Archon head I was very interested in the clips of the new one.
What I hear in all of the clips sounds much more to my ear like a MT 15 than a real Archon. Dryer more compressed and lacking that special something in the note bloom and way a real Archon responds to touch. As one who owns both amps and has been playing them out for a while knew exactly what to listen for! Will reserve final judgment until I get to play a Series II in the wild but as of now am not a fan. My opinion is they should have just retired the real Archon if it was not going to be built in the US and brought out the new one under a new name.
I suspect a US built modified version of the Archon 100 will soon appear under the Tremonti sig name of some variant and get the thought but why kill the iconic unique Archon name with this thing is the ?
To my ear the new one lost a few steps!
My Archon 50 on my 2/12 Birch PRS Deep cab nothing but my 1994 Washburn USA Chicago Custom Silverado Loaded with Duncan Surfer !!'s the amp and me playing over a track .The new one doesn't sound to me in any of the clips like it has that special something in the note bloom and way it responds to touch like mine does.
What I hear in all of the clips sounds much more to my ear like a MT 15 than a real Archon. Dryer more compressed and lacking that special something in the note bloom and way a real Archon responds to touch. As one who owns both amps and has been playing them out for a while knew exactly what to listen for! Will reserve final judgment until I get to play a Series II in the wild but as of now am not a fan. My opinion is they should have just retired the real Archon if it was not going to be built in the US and brought out the new one under a new name.
I suspect a US built modified version of the Archon 100 will soon appear under the Tremonti sig name of some variant and get the thought but why kill the iconic unique Archon name with this thing is the ?
To my ear the new one lost a few steps!
My Archon 50 on my 2/12 Birch PRS Deep cab nothing but my 1994 Washburn USA Chicago Custom Silverado Loaded with Duncan Surfer !!'s the amp and me playing over a track .The new one doesn't sound to me in any of the clips like it has that special something in the note bloom and way it responds to touch like mine does.
