Another Eternal Question. Amp or Guitar?

[László]

I'm in the "amp makes a bigger tone difference than guitar" camp, unless I'm playing very clean, which I rarely do. I always like a little hair on my clean tones.

I could maybe get by with one or two amps, but it's SO much more effective in the studio to have several choices (incidentally, modeling amps and Kemper hybrids are not the cure, they're the disease, and don't even think about suggesting otherwise! ).

I can't handle having more than a handful of guitars. They're all PRS, because I love the tone of PRS'.

But amps? I could probably be happy with an endless summer's worth of them. And I'm kinda brand-agnostic when it comes to amps, because they're all different in fascinating ways.

This all leads me to the HRDX. Based on what I've heard, it's fundamentally different from my HXDA. I'm breathing pretty hard on this one. Not asking for advice, of course. I know what my advice would be - what have I got to lose, just get one!

I'm going to start saving up.

"Guitars are different in fascinating ways, too, Les."

"True. But they're less fascinating - to me."

"This anti-modeling amp thing you have..."

"Someone has to tell the emperor he has no clothes. So I elected myself to be that guy."

"Maybe you should start a One Man March on Washington to proclaim your anti-modeler-ness to the world and attract others to your cause."

"I know you're being tongue-in-cheek here, but...maybe so!"

 

[veinbuster]

Simple for me: I don’t have enough floor space for another amp.

 

[RickP]

I have to agree with you, Les. And I discovered this in the most-un-Les-like manner… using a modeler! I had been working up specific amp models and cabinets in my Axe Fx to best replicate the songs we were covering. In discussion with the sound guy, he was having a heck of a time getting my EQ right because when my Santana tone was on, my BB King was ripping heads off, and you couldn’t hear my Bonnie Raitt! I was using two 513s for guitars, so the 13 combinations all sounded homogenous enough. As it turned out, it wasn’t even the amps that had the biggest effect in getting some EQ harmony happening… it was the speakers and cabinets! I could make them sound more alike, or very different, without changing a single setting but by using a different speaker or cabinet. So I settled on a couple that sounded good together, a la Eric Johnson, and bam… one EQ worked with only minor adjustments here and there. I’ve found since that the same if true in the analog world. Funny how that works.

Guitars definitely sound different if they are drastically different, such as a Strat or Tele versus a 335. With a bunch of similar guitar types, the amp can take you in whatever direction you need. But the lowly speaker is the actual sound generator, and has the last word on what you hear. It has a huge effect, and much more than I gave credit.

At heart, the player is likely the biggest factor. But between guitars and amps, I’d lean slightly ampward. Even more speaker/cabward.

 

[SinSir]

I agree amp > guitar but give me all the guitars I can hang. This city dweller only has the space for this room full of amps.

 

[Warmart]

Hehe, can't resist, because, as RickP notes, the cab and speaker is the final say, which is the reason why I have a Kemper and Kabinet with 15 or 20 different speakers I can choose

 

[Simon Says]

I was wondering how long it will take take you guys to talk Kemper

 

[dmatthews]

Hey Dave!
What?
Don't say a effing thing!
Why not?
Cuz everyone knows what you're going to say!
Oh... yeah... Okay

 

[dmatthews]

I have to agree with you, Les. And I discovered this in the most-un-Les-like manner… using a modeler! I had been working up specific amp models and cabinets in my Axe Fx to best replicate the songs we were covering. In discussion with the sound guy, he was having a heck of a time getting my EQ right because when my Santana tone was on, my BB King was ripping heads off, and you couldn’t hear my Bonnie Raitt! I was using two 513s for guitars, so the 13 combinations all sounded homogenous enough. As it turned out, it wasn’t even the amps that had the biggest effect in getting some EQ harmony happening… it was the speakers and cabinets! I could make them sound more alike, or very different, without changing a single setting but by using a different speaker or cabinet. So I settled on a couple that sounded good together, a la Eric Johnson, and bam… one EQ worked with only minor adjustments here and there. I’ve found since that the same if true in the analog world. Funny how that works.

Guitars definitely sound different if they are drastically different, such as a Strat or Tele versus a 335. With a bunch of similar guitar types, the amp can take you in whatever direction you need. But the lowly speaker is the actual sound generator, and has the last word on what you hear. It has a huge effect, and much more than I gave credit.

At heart, the player is likely the biggest factor. But between guitars and amps, I’d lean slightly ampward. Even more speaker/cabward.

I don't remember who did the YT video, but he went through the same guitar/amp to various speakers and yes... the speaker changed the tone massively.
Of course the old rule of garbage in applies.
I used to sell stereo systems when I was a youngster. My habit was to get the client in the sound room, close their eyes and tell me to stop when they heard what they liked as I switched through all our speakers whilst listening to the song/s of their choice.
It was an effective way to sell any model of speaker without prejudice because the customer chose it with their ears, not eyes or preconceived notion.

 

[bodia]

Guitar, because I have a Kemper to provide ALL of the amps

 

[11top]

Amp and pickups. Been my stance for years.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

The attenuator I bought has certainly allowed me to add a little hair to my clean tone!

In all honesty I’m miles behind all of you guys. I’m still on my first tube amp that I bought 27 years ago.

One day I might try some different tubes or a different speaker. It might take me about 50 years.

“You probably won’t live that long!”

“I know, but then it’s someone else’s problem”

“But how will they know what tone they want”

“I don’t know. But they will have fun figuring out.”

 

[Boogie]

Amp. Where was Les in 1979 to help me understand this earlier? Seriously, back then, these were trade secrets that NO ONE shared and it took me 10 years to figure out. Tons of stage time, pickups, bad stomp boxes, and copious amounts of frustration…not to mention bad amp decisions.

The guitar helps me be me. The amp helps me sound like me. (And as you’ve heard, that’s not exactly a desirable thing for most)

My amps define me. Heck, just look at my name! But I also have a Kemper that has changed my musical life for the better. It’s a compromise, but I’m not dropping big coin every time I need to scratch the amp itch! Like it or not, I’ve done good things - for me - with the Kemper.

Special note: I’ve not profiled my Super Dallas well for the Kemper. I gave up after a gallant attempt. There’s an open invitation by a heavy cat in the Kemper world to do it for me, which I’ll accept once this pandemic crap subsides. Until then, the Kemper doesn’t even come close.

 

[László]

Simple for me: I don’t have enough floor space for another amp.

In New York they ran out of real estate, so they started building tall buildings to cram more people/businesses in. Recently, I had to add more storage space to my studio, and didn't have much floor space I wanted to give up. The solution was to replace my existing storage cabinets with taller cabinets.

My solution will be to put it on my rack's top shelf and use my head/cabinet switcher to get double duty from my HXDA cab. Voila!

I have to agree with you, Les. And I discovered this in the most-un-Les-like manner… using a modeler! I had been working up specific amp models and cabinets in my Axe Fx to best replicate the songs we were covering. In discussion with the sound guy, he was having a heck of a time getting my EQ right because when my Santana tone was on, my BB King was ripping heads off, and you couldn’t hear my Bonnie Raitt! I was using two 513s for guitars, so the 13 combinations all sounded homogenous enough. As it turned out, it wasn’t even the amps that had the biggest effect in getting some EQ harmony happening… it was the speakers and cabinets! I could make them sound more alike, or very different, without changing a single setting but by using a different speaker or cabinet. So I settled on a couple that sounded good together, a la Eric Johnson, and bam… one EQ worked with only minor adjustments here and there. I’ve found since that the same if true in the analog world. Funny how that works.

Guitars definitely sound different if they are drastically different, such as a Strat or Tele versus a 335. With a bunch of similar guitar types, the amp can take you in whatever direction you need. But the lowly speaker is the actual sound generator, and has the last word on what you hear. It has a huge effect, and much more than I gave credit.

At heart, the player is likely the biggest factor. But between guitars and amps, I’d lean slightly ampward. Even more speaker/cabward.

Yes, I completely agree. The cabs are hugely important, and when I talk about amps, I should specify that for me the two things compose a single system. I have that amp and cab switcher to experiment with different tones. It makes a difference in how I use amps (and it's so simple and fast!).

The thing about amps is that they're all about generating harmonic frequencies when they start to break up. Every amp does that a little differently. They have different transformers, power levels, tubes and tone stacks. So they do sound fundamentally different from one another.

My theory is that everything affects the tone, guitar, cab, amp, plus whatever else is in the chain, right down to the cables. Then there's the mic, the mic cable, the mic preamp...

I agree amp > guitar but give me all the guitars I can hang. This city dweller only has the space for this room full of amps.

Great gadget, but...not really an amp! Bahahaha! (If I lived in an apartment, I'd of course need one, too).

 

[László]

Amp. Where was Les in 1979 to help me understand this earlier?

In 1979 I was getting a law firm underway rather obsessively. I knew nothing of tone. My priorities were beyond screwed up.

 

[11top]

In 1979 I was getting a law firm underway rather obsessively. I knew nothing of tone. My priorities were beyond screwed up.

Les, You need to be writing some scores for the lawyers who advertise on TV during mid-afternoon soap operas. Some of the worst music jingles I’ve ever heard. And, once those earworms are in your head, there is no escape!

 

[Boogie]

Some of the worst music jingles I’ve ever heard. And, once those earworms are in your head, there is no escape!

According to their ad/PR firms, mission accomplished!

 

[Boogie]

In 1979 I was getting a law firm underway rather obsessively. I knew nothing of tone. My priorities were beyond screwed up.

And I was 15 trying to figure out how to take over the world with my TRS80 Model III! I scored my first real, non-teaching, IT job the next year and forgot I could buy more guitars with that money. My priorities were beyond screwed up, too.

 

[Wakester]

I will probably be dodging bullets for this but here goes.

I understand what a Kemper can do. It, by reputation is the 'best' on the market for what it does. It models, period, plain and simple, it models. In a static situation, lets say a studio, that modeler is tuned into whatever output device you have connected it to. So if you only use headphones, it will always sound the way you like, until the dog eats your headphones and you have to buy a new pair. Likewise, if you only output to studio speakers then it will always sound right through those speakers. However, if you pull your Kemper from your studio and connect it to the House Speakers of unknown origin at the local dive bar, then it will not sound the same. The dive speakers have been hanging around about as long as some of us have been alive, and they have been overloaded and overdriven so many times, it is amazing they still make sound.

Another factor with live performance is the sound tech in the booth. Is he really a sound tech? Does he really know what a VOX AC30 is supposed to sound like? Does he know what scooped mids on a GEQ does to overall signal? If you have answered No to any of those questions, then you are correct. I know this because I was one of them.

Guitars are pretty much the same. In that, in the sterile studio you can make them sound any way you want. Once you take them out in the wild, their tones change based on the environment. And it works both ways. You can have a dog of a guitar in the studio that you just can't quite fit your specs, but play it in a dive bar, and it is like excalibur rising out of the lake. And the same is true going the other way as well.

The one factor that regulates whether it is the guitar or the amp that is superior, is the human factor. The guitar is only as good as the person playing it. Zakk Wylde proved this by doing a complete shredfest on a $30 Hello Kitty kids guitar. The amps are only as good as the hands that built them. The speakers are only as good as the ears that hear them. The models are only as good as the person programming them.

It is the human element that controls everything else. And that has so many more variables to consider.

And just for the record, if it were not for the invention of guitars, there would be no need for guitar amplifiers.

 

[Boogie]

I will probably be dodging bullets for this but here goes.

I understand what a Kemper can do. It, by reputation is the 'best' on the market for what it does. It models, period, plain and simple, it models. In a static situation, lets say a studio, that modeler is tuned into whatever output device you have connected it to. So if you only use headphones, it will always sound the way you like, until the dog eats your headphones and you have to buy a new pair. Likewise, if you only output to studio speakers then it will always sound right through those speakers. However, if you pull your Kemper from your studio and connect it to the House Speakers of unknown origin at the local dive bar, then it will not sound the same. The dive speakers have been hanging around about as long as some of us have been alive, and they have been overloaded and overdriven so many times, it is amazing they still make sound.

Another factor with live performance is the sound tech in the booth. Is he really a sound tech? Does he really know what a VOX AC30 is supposed to sound like? Does he know what scooped mids on a GEQ does to overall signal? If you have answered No to any of those questions, then you are correct. I know this because I was one of them.

Guitars are pretty much the same. In that, in the sterile studio you can make them sound any way you want. Once you take them out in the wild, their tones change based on the environment. And it works both ways. You can have a dog of a guitar in the studio that you just can't quite fit your specs, but play it in a dive bar, and it is like excalibur rising out of the lake. And the same is true going the other way as well.

The one factor that regulates whether it is the guitar or the amp that is superior, is the human factor. The guitar is only as good as the person playing it. Zakk Wylde proved this by doing a complete shredfest on a $30 Hello Kitty kids guitar. The amps are only as good as the hands that built them. The speakers are only as good as the ears that hear them. The models are only as good as the person programming them.

It is the human element that controls everything else. And that has so many more variables to consider.

And just for the record, if it were not for the invention of guitars, there would be no need for guitar amplifiers.

I appreciate your points. One of the beauties of the Kemper is that each output - headphones, main/FOH, and monitor - have their own level controls and master EQ. If we’re playing a dive bar with house PA, we’ll use our own for continuity. With my amps, I’d be attempting to tweak the board for each venue because you don’t dare change the amp. You know, continuity. But we rarely had a sound guy to do this stuff for us and I felt our sound from venue to venue suffered. The Kemper made continuity a reality. No changes to what I heard, and the FOH got the same levels and EQ as the others…with the advent of making EQ changes an easy possibility. No tube fade, heat exhaustion, or other tonal shift of the tube amps due to either being in A/C, outdoors in 105F and 95% humidity, or baking under a traditional incandescent light system. It just works the same every time. Thats what sold me.

Oh, and Michael Britt makes some amazing profiles that sound blissful, even with me playing.

 

[veinbuster]

Oh, and Michael Britt makes some amazing profiles that sound blissful, even with me playing.

He does. They are all I have on my Kemper: about 1,600 of them.