Another episode of amp guy vs. modeler guy!

[CandidPicker]

Every year the modeling crowd screams "modelers sound just as good as a tube amp! You'll never tell the difference!"

And then a new product or update comes out and they all say "this update is a night and day difference. NOW the modeling game is as good as tubes!"

I don't buy either. Is modeling good enough in a band mix? Definitely. Is it good enough for me to stop using a tube amp at home? No, and it never will be.

This may be true, but like yourself, I don't buy everything the world sells. My recent mantra is: "If you don't break it, and you don't buy it, you don't have to pay for it."

I think we should merely respect each other's decision to use whatever tool that is necessary for the job. For example, you'd wear warm mittens so your hands don't get cold.

It may actually be what our own "figurative heart" is telling us to do. It's vital that we protect that if we wish to remain "healthy."

My thought is, each of us who enjoys life with either tube amps or modelers does so because the have made a decision to follow what they've been led to believe works for them. If either amp or modeler works for you, for whatever reason, then let each of us enjoy what we've decided.

The debate over tube amps vs. modelers is really an ignorant one, because neither party has experienced the larger world of tube amps or modelers in entirety. For those who have, we encourage you to share your experience so that we can make better informed decisions about what would work better for us.

As those from the modeler world have mentioned numerous times, "There is no right or wrong in amp modeling. It's simply how to dial in what is pleasing to our ears that sets us apart from others, because our tastes are so subjective."

I personally do not subscribe to the "pushing air" camp of guitarists. I personally don't need pant-flapping volume when I play. You learn pretty quickly that the gold standard is not volume, its dynamics, and how you can make your guitar do wonderful things with varying levels of volume. The Fletcher-Munson curve aside, volume is beneficial only when one needs to be heard above a crowd. Amps and/or FRFRs can achieve that, but will varying results because of the dynamics of each.

 

[markd21]

I will readily admit that any of the tube amps I owned will sound better than a modeler. Everyone that talks about the richness of a speaker moving air is correct. It is a glorious thing.

However, it is not always practical. Guys that play live know where the volume needs to be to get the goods. Fifteen watts, Sixty watts, one Hundred watts, One Hundred and Twenty watts - gigged them all. Didn't matter which wattage because all were loud and the lower wattage amps lost clean headroom too quickly. I need a clear clean sound. I like melting, natural drive. I was never a pedal guy. I hate the way they mess with the pure tone of amp/guitar/hands.

All my Helix presets are one amp with two cabs. One cab is the close mic, the other cab is my room mic. Sometimes I add a tiny bit of plate behind the room cab to simulate depth and distance. All other effects are added in post production.

One of the things I love is how I have my rigs stored. Almost every guitar I own has banks of the following:

Fender models: clean to dirty
Vox models: clean to dirty
Marshall: clean to dirty

Those three brands have every amp/cabinet modelled in the Helix with varying levels of amp drive.

Then I have the same with a few select hi gain amps. It's really just turn a dial and the amp/cab/mic/room are set and ready to go.

I'm pleased with my tones. Here's a clip:

 

[DBedard]

For me it’s like Apple/PC, iPhone/Android, etc. I stay out of it. Whatever makes you happy.

I own two tube amps, a Fender 68 Reissue Deluxe and a Suhr Bella. The Suhr is a hand wired deluxe ish amp.

I use a Kemper exclusively. At home, I take the mains out, L&R, and run them into the tube amps. Sounds stellar.

I love the Kemper live on stage, right into a board. Also makes me happy.

I’ve bought high end well known gear that certain artists make sound amazing, and they didn’t sound good to me at all.

I did the back and forth - all in for “analog” (those Strymons are digital modelers), or all in Line 6. I’ve finally found something that sounds consistently amazing, weighs 22 pounds in the case with my wireless and all my cables, and makes me happy.

I’ve created several performances based on specific amps, with the gain increasing right to left and buttons I-IIII for effects - consistency.

 

[Clashcityrocker]

I'm actually an audio snob. I don't like mp3s or streaming. I think they could easily have Hi Res music available at a reasonable cost. When cds came out I liked them more than vinyl because they sounded more impressive to me. When I do listen to vinyl I find that it is more enjoyable to listen to than cds. I can see how vinyl is becoming popular again because streaming and mp3s aren't that great of quality and listeners who like an artist will want more. I have a Pono player. Which is a hi res digital music player that Neil Young conceived. I think the Pono company went under but it is a great sounding player with top notch D/A converters. It would be nice one day to get music as the same quality that it is recorded in music studios. Why is it so difficult? Does anyone care anymore? I didn't mean to offend anyone with this thread it was more of a joke like an SNL skit for guitar players.

 

[László]

I love kidding around about this stuff, because it's an excuse to talk about gear.

I don't really care what anyone else uses to inflict their idea of good tone on the world. People disagree about tube amps as much as they do modelers vs tube amps, or modelers vs modelers, anyway.

Every year the modeling crowd screams "modelers sound just as good as a tube amp! You'll never tell the difference!"

And then a new product or update comes out and they all say "this update is a night and day difference. NOW the modeling game is as good as tubes!"

^ ^ Toolmaster is right!

I also DO NOT miss dragging heavy stuff around!! Pretty much 1 trip and good to go!!

I've always said this is the best reason to use a modeler, to save one's back, or to save cartage costs on a tour.

But I've come around to a different idea that might be 'best of both worlds'. I have a Mesa Fillmore 50W head, switchable down to 25W when necessary, good Master Volume, lots of modes, and (the best part) surprisingly light weight at 25 pounds, around the same weight as a guitar in a hard case. I can handle that.

Plug into a light weight cab emulation box, and I've got a pretty flexible setup for live gigs that employs a real tube amp that isn't a back-breaker.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

You’re such an athletic supporter!

But… you don’t know which side I’m on….

But really, I’m not on either side, I use both. But…

I love kidding around about this stuff, because it's an excuse to talk about gear.

I don't really care what anyone else uses to inflict their idea of good tone on the world. People disagree about tube amps as much as they do modelers vs tube amps, or modelers vs modelers, anyway.

This is EXACTLY how I feel about it. You use what you like, I’ll use what I like, and we should both be happy with what we like. And I like both. Tube amps into real guitar speakers sound better. I’ve never heard a digital rig yet, that would change my mind on that statement. But digital is getting better and better, and definitely has it’s place. Actually, it has many places. Many ways you can use it to your advantage.

So, these discussions are never an “either/or” thing for me. It’s to hear the constantly changing landscape of what is available and what does what well. Tube amp>guitar speakers is THE STANDARD and has been for many years. Tonally, digital continues to try to get closer and closer. But other than sheer “tone at volume,” digital has many advantages. I think that “most” guitar players would be best served with a mix of both, while they could be completely satisfied with one or the other.

 

[11top]

Honestly (don’t be dishonest Steve ), if I were more of a clean tone player, I’d gravitate towards tube amps. But, I’m not and I don’t, because I’m more of a classic rock kinda dude, and my Kemper covers (see what I did there) that well imo.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I suggest arm wresting first. Then perhaps team sports, so a tug of war.

It should be a loudness contest.

I think I could win if I turned up the MV of my MkIV to 5.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Winner!

 

[Wyzard]

It should be a loudness contest.

I think I could win if I turned up the MV of my MkIV to 5.

When I turn up my Coli MkIIB to 5, even my MkIV trembles in fear.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

When I turn up my Coli MkIIB to 5, even my MkIV trembles in fear.

Lol! The Coliseum and Strategy lines were more Weapons of Mass Destruction than they were guitar amplifiers.

I mean that in the best possible way.

 

[CandidPicker]

For me it’s like Apple/PC, iPhone/Android, etc. I stay out of it. Whatever makes you happy.

I own two tube amps, a Fender 68 Reissue Deluxe and a Suhr Bella. The Suhr is a hand wired deluxe ish amp.

I use a Kemper exclusively. At home, I take the mains out, L&R, and run them into the tube amps. Sounds stellar.

I love the Kemper live on stage, right into a board. Also makes me happy.

I’ve bought high end well known gear that certain artists make sound amazing, and they didn’t sound good to me at all.

I did the back and forth - all in for “analog” (those Strymons are digital modelers), or all in Line 6. I’ve finally found something that sounds consistently amazing, weighs 22 pounds in the case with my wireless and all my cables, and makes me happy.

I’ve created several performances based on specific amps, with the gain increasing right to left and buttons I-IIII for effects - consistency.

Same here. Like many of us, we've owned commonly known amps, and some boutique amps. Many of us were inspired to play through them because of famous guitarist (insert name here) and we tried to imitate or at least approximate their tone/sound.

With limited access to what amps we owned, we either discovered that we needed amp A, cab B and effects C, or we couldn't achieve what we needed.

Enter modelers. Many modelers offer much more than you might imagine, and provide higher quality sampling than previous product OS releases. The beauty of modelers is that they are entirely upgradable (most all OS upgrades are provided at no additional cost) and the variety/tone/sound quality improves over time.

Ever heard of a Paragon Wah? It's currently available on the Axe III, and will be available on the FM# units when firmware updates occur. While tube amps are tried and true workhorses that offer a narrower range of possibilities, many modelers provide us with a much wider range. The Fractal FM9 offers over 300 different amp and 1024 factory cab models from which you can choose.

You'd need a huge warehouse to store all of these IRL, and since you're not Joe Bonamassa, how could you afford all of these? Case in point, the FM9T is now priced at $1699 plus shipping to the CONUS. This is why it made perfect sense to switch to a modeler.

What you receive is the amp, effects and cab models described above, in a compact floorboard unit. And it doesn't suck. I'd daresay that the only additional required outlay of funds is your choice of FRFR, or 4-cabled amp, or powered amp/passive cab. The only reason I personally chose a modeler was for the monetary value for goods received. The bang for the buck. Although I've not done the math, I estimate if a normal amp costs anywhere between $400 and $3400 new or used, and cabinets from $250 to $1500, I just saved myself over 300 times the costs of owning all the amps plus 1024 times the costs of all cabs included with a Fractal.

The reason is this: Why spend hundred of thousands of dollars on gear searching for "your signature tone" when you can find that in a modeler at a fraction of the cost?

 

[Wyzard]

Why spend hundred of thousands of dollars on gear searching for "your signature tone" when you can find in a modeler at a fraction of the cost?

Even given my well-documented proclivity for super-high-end/super-rare/super-loud amps, I'm not even remotely close to "hundreds of thousands of dollars".

Anyhow, here are the opposite ends of my personal forty-five-year-plus journey:

I started with an Antoria Tele Deluxe copy through a Winfield Audition amp .......... and ended up with a hand-built '61 replica S-type, into a KOT, into a Two Rock Akoya (FTT Ambi-Space in the loop), into two 1x12 Celestion Black Shadow cabs.


How would I have navigated this journey - in any given succession of modelers - guaranteeing my arriving at the best sound I've ever had by several orders of magnitude?

 

[dmatthews]

Even given my well-documented proclivity for super-high-end/super-rare/super-loud amps, I'm not even remotely close to "hundreds of thousands of dollars".

Anyhow, here are the opposite ends of my personal forty-five-year-plus journey:

I started with an Antoria Tele Deluxe copy through a Winfield Audition amp .......... and ended up with a hand-built '61 replica S-type, into a KOT, into a Two Rock Akoya (FTT Ambi-Space in the loop), into two 1x12 Celestion Black Shadow cabs.


How would I have navigated this journey - in any given succession of modelers - guaranteeing my arriving at the best sound I've ever had by several orders of magnitude?

I for one am happy that you've found your sound.

 

[CandidPicker]

Even given my well-documented proclivity for super-high-end/super-rare/super-loud amps, I'm not even remotely close to "hundreds of thousands of dollars".

Anyhow, here are the opposite ends of my personal forty-five-year-plus journey:

I started with an Antoria Tele Deluxe copy through a Winfield Audition amp .......... and ended up with a hand-built '61 replica S-type, into a KOT, into a Two Rock Akoya (FTT Ambi-Space in the loop), into two 1x12 Celestion Black Shadow cabs.

How would I have navigated this journey - in any given succession of modelers - guaranteeing my arriving at the best sound I've ever had by several orders of magnitude?

I'm glad to hear you've found your sound. Since about 1976, my history also includes buying/selling various amp types, but never really settling on one certain kind. My "journey" regards amps has become one of discovery and gaining experience with each, but as time has moved forward, so have my musical preferences and tastes. Thus, the amps I once favored were moved and sold as replacements were purchased.

My personal feeling is that I've given my tone quest what was needed to accomplish a certain sound or tone. Beyond that, I don't expect a Fender 6L6 type amp to sound like a "D" amp or a modded Plexi 100W to sound like an Archon.

The beauty of this is that though I don't own any of the physical amps themselves anymore, the possibility of playing through very close approximations of them exists with my Fractal. The variety is there if I ever need wish to explore them. I don't need to buy or sell amps anymore.

Although a modeler is NOT a tube amp nor should it be construed as one, the sampling and technology of modelers involved has improved over time and has currently produced some of the best tones I've ever heard.

Maybe I don't have audio engineers' ears, but at a live gig, no one is going to belittle your tone just because it comes from a modeler. They may raise their eyebrows and ask "You gonna play through THAT?"

Those of us who have built quality presets and spent plenty of time practicing their craft will smile sweetly and say, "Yup." At the close of the gig, they might even receive a lot of compliments from those who attended.

Truth be told, my Fractal FM9 fulfills my musical need of anything I might lack. I let God and my day job provide the remainder.

 

[DBedard]

Same here. Like many of us, we've owned commonly known amps, and some boutique amps. Many of us were inspired to play through them because of famous guitarist (insert name here) and we tried to imitate or at least approximate their tone/sound.

With limited access to what amps we owned, we either discovered that we needed amp A, cab B and effects C, or we couldn't achieve what we needed.

Enter modelers. Many modelers offer much more than you might imagine, and provide higher quality sampling than previous product OS releases. The beauty of modelers is that they are entirely upgradable (most all OS upgrades are provided at no additional cost) and the variety/tone/sound quality improves over time.

Ever heard of a Paragon Wah? It's currently available on the Axe III, and will be available on the FM# units when firmware updates occur. While tube amps are tried and true workhorses that offer a narrower range of possibilities, many modelers provide us with a much wider range. The Fractal FM9 offers over 300 different amp and 1024 factory cab models from which you can choose.

You'd need a huge warehouse to store all of these IRL, and since you're not Joe Bonamassa, how could you afford all of these? Case in point, the FM9T is now priced at $1699 plus shipping to the CONUS. This is why it made perfect sense to switch to a modeler.

What you receive is the amp, effects and cab models described above, in a compact floorboard unit. And it doesn't suck. I'd daresay that the only additional required outlay of funds is your choice of FRFR, or 4-cabled amp, or powered amp/passive cab. The only reason I personally chose a modeler was for the monetary value for goods received. The bang for the buck. Although I've not done the math, I estimate if a normal amp costs anywhere between $400 and $3400 new or used, and cabinets from $250 to $1500, I just saved myself over 300 times the costs of owning all the amps plus 1024 times the costs of all cabs included with a Fractal.

The reason is this: Why spend hundred of thousands of dollars on gear searching for "your signature tone" when you can find that in a modeler at a fraction of the cost?

I’ve fallen in love with more amps and effects I never tried through using them on my Kemper rig, who would have thought a metal player would want a Morgan or a Vox AC-50? Same with effects - I only ever used one of the same four drive pedals and the same delay in the loop, but I’ve discovered so many of flavors of pedals, comps, etc.

I could never afford (or carry) all of that equipment without my Profiler. My wife was helping me load in one day and made a joke that the Kemper has so many amps in it that she thought it would be heavier

 

[Wyzard]

I for one am happy that you've found your sound.

Me too.

The point of what I was trying (however feebly) to express was that the journey - both through the long line of amps I used, and the way my playing evolved in response to each amp's individuality - shaped what and how I play right now.

The beauty of this is that though I don't own any of the physical amps themselves anymore, the possibility of playing through very close approximations of them exists with my Fractal. The variety is there if I ever need wish to explore them. I don't need to buy or sell amps anymore.

Wonderful!

Yet, and once again: it was your conventional amp journey that gave you both the skills and the contextual experience that inform your choices with the Fractal.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I don't need to buy or sell amps anymore.

So, you're saying that as soon as the holidays is over, we move on to "feats of strength" competition? If so, we better get the "airing of grievances" out of the way before New Years.

 

[ScottR]

Man as long as I have something I can play thru I really don’t care. I just like making loud noises.

 

[CandidPicker]

Me too.

The point of what I was trying (however feebly) to express was that the journey - both through the long line of amps I used, and the way my playing evolved in response to each amp's individuality - shaped what and how I play right now.

Wonderful!

Yet, and once again: it was your conventional amp journey that gave you both the skills and the contextual experience that inform your choices with the Fractal.

This is true. What was also part of the journey was not being able play through numerous untold amps/effects/cabs without owning them IRL. The Fractal allows me the ability to do just that, within the context of a floorboard unit and stereo FRFR rig.

As was said, the technology has improved to the point of where it's almost indistinguishable to be able to tell the difference between tube amp and modeler. And for all intents and purposes, it's almost impossible to hear a difference, save for the actual cab pushing air through the speakers.

Fractal now offers a form of compensation for that, so as to make the "amp in the room" seem more life-like. They've incorporated a "speaker thump" feature, as well as a "speaker gain" feature that provides a better live rendering of FRFR speakers. While you may not use this for recording, both features impart a more life-like tone to your FRFRs.

Those who use a power amp/passive speaker, or 4-cable amp method still enjoy the "pushed air" aspect of modeling, though for my personal needs, it's not necessary within a live context. The house PA provides enough audio projection and the FM9 can be tweaked (EQ/Output Volume) while in-house to accommodate whatever FOH needs are required. The venue host can ask me to tweak, or it's possible to let him tweak the PA according to his expertise.

For sake of less things needed to carry in/out of a gig, the FM9, maybe an FRFR for floor monitor, and a guitar or 2, and my PRS utility bag are all that's needed. All this gets put onto a rock 'n roller cart in one trip from vehicle to venue. No more risking theft while needing to offload gear with multiple trips from vehicle to venue.

One significant reason the switch was made from tube amp to modeler was to relieve the weight constraints of on/off-loading gear. Anyone can attest nowadays that it costs a boatload to ship amps if they're ever bought/sold. Imagine trying to sell 200 of your favorite amps and deal with the costs of shipping. Compare that to trying to ship a much smaller 25 lb. 24"x15"x10" package that contains much more than 200 amps.

You wouldn't make as much money, but then again, you didn't pay the cost of all these amps to begin with. My investment was a Fractal FM9.

My experience over the years was buying/playing/selling guitars/amps/effects/cabs and realizing how much money I'd wasted trying to find my signature tone and sound, though, truth be told, my musical prefs have changed with time. The Fractal solved that problem, because I can revisit/relive any era of my past and enjoy my formative years and not feel slighted because of not owning actual amps anymore.