Amp SOS: The Fillmore, Rescued.

László

Only Human
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Apr 26, 2012
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Michigan
I was ready to sell my Fillmore 50. There were things it was good at that the DG was better at; there were other things it was good at that the HXDA did better (this is a personal taste thing, of course).

I had previously transformed it from ‘merely good’ to ‘excellent’ by removing the stock preamp tubes, and installing NOS military grade GEs. I left the stock Mesa-branded STR 440s installed, because the amp sounded so much better with the NOS preamp tubes I didn’t feel I needed to install new power tubes.

But as good as it was, I had trouble finding a sonic space for it at times — it’s hard to choose most amps over the PRS CAD amps.

However, the guys here, Bogner and others, convinced me to hang onto it, for the time being. I decided to make a last-ditch attempt at a rescue. If it didn’t change the character of the amp, I figured I’d keep it for a few weeks, and if I was still in the mood to sell, it’d go.

I had some spare Telefunken 6L6s. These are hand-selected modern tubes made by JJ, and then cryogenically treated. Telefunken’s brand was bought by a US based company that makes killer, high end microphones. They offer these tubes on their website for their products, but they’re also sold at Tube Depot.

Cryogenics is a method of stiffening metals that’s been proven and used in industry for many years, It’s not snake oil. It succeeds in giving metals greater strength, corrosion resistance, and improved electrical conductivity. Here’s some background on it (note that it was invented in 1966 in Detroit):


These are the only modern 6L6 tubes that don’t rattle in my Lone Star combo as a result of the increased stiffness of the metals inside the tube, and sound as good, maybe even better, than NOS 6L6s I’ve used. However, I now have a quad of NOS EL34s installed in the Lone Star, which improved its gain channel, so I had the Telefunkens stored in their boxes.

I had never tried them in the Fillmore. Today I installed them and gave them a whirl.

Gigantic improvement over the stock Chinese or Russian STR440s — a transformation greater than the NOS preamp tubes. Much more clarity, more definition throughout the frequency range, beautifully crisp highs, and lows so thundering I had to turn the bass down quite a bit, even on the 4x10 cab. The amp sounds better with every other cab I own now as well.

Honestly, it’s a bigger transformation than I got with them in the Lone Star, and I thought they made a big difference in that amp. The Fillmore is improved in every mode. Most importantly, now the amp no longer sounds like a poor man’s DG30, HXDA, or anything else. It’s got a different and unique vibe altogether.

It just goes to show, the guys here were right; don’t give up on an amp until you’ve exhausted every possibility. Thanks, guys!

👍🏻
 
I like your sophisticated approach - and I'm glad, you have been surprised in a very positive manner by the result.

As an excursion:
Concerning cryogenic treatment: In Germany we had and have serious struggles concerning "cryo tuning" of whole guitars. True is the positive impact on metal structures. The convinced guys swear that treated guitars sound better.




Fender did that recently with a custom shop Dale Wilson strat:

And a cryo tuned LP:

I apologize my native language in the clips.

I would dare to treat any of my guitars by cryo.
At the time PRS modified (a present by Paul himself to me) my 2011 513 I was called by the Head of PRS Europe and the Head of their Tech Centre. I was asked, if I want my guitar being modified, because they didn't have often such a well resonating and sounding guitar.
I played it up to that date very often, perhaps on a daily basis.
Of course and without any doubt a good guitar requires good material and parts (wood with perfect and constant humidity), proper tools, and proper craftmanship.
But cryo for the whole guitar?
My 2 cents.
 
I like your sophisticated approach - and I'm glad, you have been surprised in a very positive manner by the result.

As an excursion:
Concerning cryogenic treatment: In Germany we had and have serious struggles concerning "cryo tuning" of whole guitars. True is the positive impact on metal structures. The convinced guys swear that treated guitars sound better.




Fender did that recently with a custom shop Dale Wilson strat:

And a cryo tuned LP:

I apologize my native language in the clips.

I would dare to treat any of my guitars by cryo.
At the time PRS modified (a present by Paul himself to me) my 2011 513 I was called by the Head of PRS Europe and the Head of their Tech Centre. I was asked, if I want my guitar being modified, because they didn't have often such a well resonating and sounding guitar.
I played it up to that date very often, perhaps on a daily basis.
Of course and without any doubt a good guitar requires good material and parts (wood with perfect and constant humidity), proper tools, and proper craftmanship.
But cryo for the whole guitar?
My 2 cents.
Cheesus...

Well, JM's black strat spent a night in a freezer according to him, which woke up the tonality. Maybe Les should do that with the whole amp?
 
I would dare to treat any of my guitars by cryo.
At the time PRS modified (a present by Paul himself to me) my 2011 513 I was called by the Head of PRS Europe and the Head of their Tech Centre. I was asked, if I want my guitar being modified, because they didn't have often such a well resonating and sounding guitar.
I played it up to that date very often, perhaps on a daily basis.
Of course and without any doubt a good guitar requires good material and parts (wood with perfect and constant humidity), proper tools, and proper craftmanship.
But cryo for the whole guitar?
My 2 cents.
If only I spoke German! The extremely tiny bit of German that I understand is from reading the translations of Wagner’s opera librettos into English! 😂

Understanding what the Valkyries were laughing and singing about, of course, doesn’t do much good when listening to the language spoken in real conversation…

But the guitars did sound very lively and present. Is that what you’re hearing, too, Maerti?
 
There’s a used Fillmore on CL near me. This isn’t helping. I wouldn’t do the whole tube thing, but still…. I’d have to buy an open cab though. Maybe I’m off the hook.

@László ,I’m glad you found new life for the Fillmore.
 
There’s a used Fillmore on CL near me. This isn’t helping. I wouldn’t do the whole tube thing, but still…. I’d have to buy an open cab though. Maybe I’m off the hook.

@László ,I’m glad you found new life for the Fillmore.
Or......You Could Play The Piss Out Of Your TC-100 And Kemper And Cover Some Similar Ground. See What I Did There And How Much Money And Mental Anguish I Saved You. ;)
 
There’s a used Fillmore on CL near me. This isn’t helping. I wouldn’t do the whole tube thing, but still…. I’d have to buy an open cab though. Maybe I’m off the hook.

@László ,I’m glad you found new life for the Fillmore.
If you watch the original demo of the amp by Andy Timmons in Mesa’s YouTube stuff, he plays it through an open back cab, but also through a Recto closed back cab with V30s.

See for yourself how it works with a closed back cab.

I’m inclined to agree with Bogner, however. While the Fillmore is Tweed-based, it’s still got a lot of the Mesa sound. Might be too much overlap.
 
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If you watch the original demo of the amp by Andy Timmons in Mesa’s YouTube stuff, he plays it through an open back cab, but also through a Recto closed back cab with V30s.

See for yourself how it works with a closed back cab.

I’m inclined to agree with Bogner, however. While the Fillmore is Tweed-based, it’s still got a lot of the Mesa sound. Might be too much overlap.
Yup, it’s the overlap I’m curious about. I’m hoping too much. I also wonder about the 6v6’s in the TC-100. Anyway, back to your rescue!
 
@László, I noticed a slightly different sound. Most time, Olli, he is employee of the instrument dealer "Session" [Excursion: Thomann (surroundings of Bamberg), the biggest one, Music Store (in Cologne), Session (Frankfurt/Main), and Musik Produktiv (Ibbenbüren, between Münster and Osnabrück, MP was owned by Session a few years ago) are the biggest dealers in our nation. Session, starting under a different name belonged formerly the PRS Sales representative for Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, and his brother.], plays overdriven.
I have my doubt, that every part of a guitar should be treated with cryo. Glue reacts different, than wood, liquids (capacitors) react different, and so on.
And the binding of one guitar cracked.
It's way off topic: If Paul would be convinced, that this treatment will provide better sound and performance of his instruments he would have introduced that into the process.
 
@László, I noticed a slightly different sound. Most time, Olli, he is employee of the instrument dealer "Session" [Excursion: Thomann (surroundings of Bamberg), the biggest one, Music Store (in Cologne), Session (Frankfurt/Main), and Musik Produktiv (Ibbenbüren, between Münster and Osnabrück, MP was owned by Session a few years ago) are the biggest dealers in our nation. Session, starting under a different name belonged formerly the PRS Sales representative for Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, and his brother.], plays overdriven.
I have my doubt, that every part of a guitar should be treated with cryo. Glue reacts different, than wood, liquids (capacitors) react different, and so on.
And the binding of one guitar cracked.
It's way off topic: If Paul would be convinced, that this treatment will provide better sound and performance of his instruments he would have introduced that into the process.
Because Cryogenic treatment was developed for metals, and improves their conductivity, cryo-treating the pickups, electronic controls and hardware might create some type of sonic change.

I wouldn’t want to subject the wood, plastic trim and finish of my guitars to that type of treatment.

But of course, I’m just guessing.
 
Yup, it’s the overlap I’m curious about. I’m hoping too much. I also wonder about the 6v6’s in the TC-100. Anyway, back to your rescue!
Some players like having a lot of amps and really get off on the subtle differences. I can appreciate that. After all, the devil is in the details.

Looking back over the last 33 years since I got into the music production biz, I’ve often gotten enthusiastic about a tone family, and bought several amps in that family, only to later decide there was too much overlap.

My DG30 and HXDA have different sonic foundations, and sound separate enough from one another that I can see having both. My Lone Star and Fillmore sound different, too, but not THAT different; it’s simply a matter of degree, I guess.

In any case, if I had a do over, it would be to buy only one of them, and instead of buying the other one, put the money into something in a different direction tonally.

I guess I’d sell the Lone Star before the Fillmore, but at 85 pounds it’s too heavy for me to carry up the stairs to ship or take to a store to trade in. I guess it’ll be here when I drop dead. 😆
 
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at 85 pounds it’s too heavy for me to carry up the stairs to ship or take to a store to trade in. I guess it’ll be here when I drop dead.
This Means It Will Be With You Forever Because I Am Guessing You Are Clocking In At Over 85 Pounds As Well And Won't Be Easy To Get Up The Stairs Either (When Your Time Comes) So The Chances Of You Being Traded In As Well Is Very Unlikely. 🤣

#LongTermThinking
 
This Means It Will Be With You Forever Because I Am Guessing You Are Clocking In At Over 85 Pounds As Well And Won't Be Easy To Get Up The Stairs Either (When Your Time Comes) So The Chances Of You Being Traded In As Well Is Very Unlikely. 🤣

#LongTermThinking
I’m sure my wife would like to trade me for someone or something else, but she waited too long; I no longer have much trade value!

That amp is gonna be an archaeological artifact. One day they’ll dig down, find my basement studio…er…tomb…and be convinced that ancient aliens called The Smiths (Paul R. + Randall) must have built the equipment.

They’ll be right, of course!
 
Postscript:

One day I had electricians come in to add some AC outlets in the studio.

One of them looked at my amps and said:

“Wow! Antique juke boxes! Do you collect them?”

People tend to get their mid-20th Century tech confused. 🤣
I Had A Similar Experience. The Electrician Walks Into The Music Room And Sees Everything And Says "Man, You Have A Lot Of Guitars And Stuff. You Into Music?" I Responded "I Have Been Known To Play A Little." I Could See His Mind Was Racing As He Observed His Surroundings. He Said At One Time He Played A Little. I Said Oh? He Said "Yeah I Miss Playing Sometimes...I Had The Best Guitar In The World But I Had To Sell it In My Divorce Years Ago." I Asked What He Had Hoping He Would Say An Original 59 Les Paul Or Something. He Said He Had A "Basic Fender Strat...That Is All You Need" And Then Went on To Tell Me All The Famous Players Who Played Strats Back In The Day. I Politely Smiled And Let Him Talk. I Could See He Was Looking For A Fender Headstock But Didn't Find One. He Said "Sir...I Don't Mean To Be Rude But You Have A Lot Of Stuff. Why Not Get Rid Of What You Have And Buy A Few Really Nice Guitars Like A Fender Strat Or A Les Paul And Have Some Really Nice Guitars And Not So Much Stuff?" I Was Chuckling Deep Down Inside And His Eyes Finally Saw A Gibson Headstock And He Excitedly Said "Oh, You Have A Nice Guitar! I Didn't Recognize Any Of These Other Brands You Have." I Was Signing The Invoice And He Said Again That "I Really Should Consider Getting Some Nice Guitars As It Looks Like I Am Into Them." I Smiled And Said I Would Consider His Suggestion As It Made A Lot Of Sense As We Were Selling That House And Getting Ready To Move And It Would Be Less To Move So What He Was Saying "Made Sense". He Felt Good For Offering The Advice, I Was Amused And Did Appreciate His Passion. I Didn't Have The Heart To Tell Him I Had Already Consolidated Down Years Ago And This Was The Result. Some Things Are Better Left Unsaid. When The House Sold And I Had To Prepare The Stuff For The Move I Did Ask Myself...Should I Sell Everything And Get A Couple Of Strats? They Were Good Enough For Hendrix And This Repair Guy So They Have To Be Good Enough For Me As Well. That Thought Went To The Abyss About As Quickly As I Thought It...It Does Make Me Smile Each Time I Recall That Story. Thanks For The Memories...
 
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